Another Bullsh$@ Manufactured story to provoke the race card.

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  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Did anyone read the transcript that rgambs posted? It's pretty clear that when the officer asked Sandra if she was okay, he wasn't really asking out of concern; when she gave an honest answer of why she was upset, he replied with "are you done yet?", not exactly an answer that suggests he cared about her concerns. When he asked if she would "mind" putting out her cigarette, and she asked why she needed to - a legitimate question - he then demanded she get out of the car, something that there was no basis for. When she questioned why, thus asking a lawful question about procedure, he then proceeded to reach in and grab her and threaten to taser her.

    The officer (1) needed to answer her lawful question about why she was being arrested, and (2) needed to have justification to proceed to physically remove her from the car. Even if an individual ignores, for instance, a police order to exit a vehicle the police do not have blanket authority to proceed to physical force, or "seizure". Force is only justified if it is not excessive and if there is a reason such as public safety, neither of which applied. Because he did neither of those, legal scholars and even his department have agreed that he exceeded his lawful authority.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,260
    PJ_Soul said:

    I think the cop was definitely an instigator of aggression. He had no reason to be grilling that woman the way he was, asking her those questions, and making her get out of the car. He approached the whole thing poorly, and the woman had what I see as an understandable reaction, taking into account the tension between cops and black people in America right now. The cop really should know better. Should she have bitten her tongue? Yes. Should the cop have approached her like a normal cop would during a routine traffic stop? Yes. If anyone should shoulder responsibility for doing something wrong, it should be the COP. He's doing a paid service. He has some responsibilities to meet as a trained, paid employee of the city and a keeper of the peace. The woman is under no such responsibility.

    But that actually has nothing to do with the real problem here. I'm much more concerned about her death in police custody.

    I may not have a responsibility to not eat a gallon of ice cream every night, but I don't do it because I don't want to get fat.

    In the 10 times (I have a need for speed) that I've been pulled over in my life, I've always pulled over, kept my hands on the steering wheel, and waited until the cop arrived before I got into the glove compartment for vehicle registration. That is what I was taught in drivers' education and I still do it. I talk to the officer with respect. I get a ticket most times, but it is a fairly painless 20 minutes.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,608
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ
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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,717
    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I think the cop was definitely an instigator of aggression. He had no reason to be grilling that woman the way he was, asking her those questions, and making her get out of the car. He approached the whole thing poorly, and the woman had what I see as an understandable reaction, taking into account the tension between cops and black people in America right now. The cop really should know better. Should she have bitten her tongue? Yes. Should the cop have approached her like a normal cop would during a routine traffic stop? Yes. If anyone should shoulder responsibility for doing something wrong, it should be the COP. He's doing a paid service. He has some responsibilities to meet as a trained, paid employee of the city and a keeper of the peace. The woman is under no such responsibility.

    But that actually has nothing to do with the real problem here. I'm much more concerned about her death in police custody.

    That's unbelievable. Your first sentence anyway. Even though I don't think cops should have to babysit all prisoners all the time, people should be able to hang themselves in the cells.
    But what if she didn't hang herself?? That is the entire point.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,717
    edited July 2015
    bootlegger10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I think the cop was definitely an instigator of aggression. He had no reason to be grilling that woman the way he was, asking her those questions, and making her get out of the car. He approached the whole thing poorly, and the woman had what I see as an understandable reaction, taking into account the tension between cops and black people in America right now. The cop really should know better. Should she have bitten her tongue? Yes. Should the cop have approached her like a normal cop would during a routine traffic stop? Yes. If anyone should shoulder responsibility for doing something wrong, it should be the COP. He's doing a paid service. He has some responsibilities to meet as a trained, paid employee of the city and a keeper of the peace. The woman is under no such responsibility.

    But that actually has nothing to do with the real problem here. I'm much more concerned about her death in police custody.

    I may not have a responsibility to not eat a gallon of ice cream every night, but I don't do it because I don't want to get fat.

    In the 10 times (I have a need for speed) that I've been pulled over in my life, I've always pulled over, kept my hands on the steering wheel, and waited until the cop arrived before I got into the glove compartment for vehicle registration. That is what I was taught in drivers' education and I still do it. I talk to the officer with respect. I get a ticket most times, but it is a fairly painless 20 minutes.
    Yeah. I said she should have kept her mouth shut. I firmly believe that. But I think that our expectations should be directed at the police officer, who is on the job and should be using his training and behaving appropriately. The women is under no such obligation. Some random citizen has a lot more room to act stupid than a cop who's on the job does.
    And btw, it's not like the woman flipped out. She was obviously surprised and confused and mad about how the cop was treating her, and I don't blame her for any of those emotions. It was dumb of her to talk back, but it's not like she hit him or started screaming, or anything like that. She was slightly belligerent when a cop was treating her unfairly. It's not that bad IMO, and it also has nothing to do with her showing up dead in a cell three days later (when everyone she knows says she wasn't suicidal in any way, shape, or form).
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    oftenreading said:

    Did anyone read the transcript that rgambs posted? It's pretty clear that when the officer asked Sandra if she was okay, he wasn't really asking out of concern; when she gave an honest answer of why she was upset, he replied with "are you done yet?", not exactly an answer that suggests he cared about her concerns. When he asked if she would "mind" putting out her cigarette, and she asked why she needed to - a legitimate question - he then demanded she get out of the car, something that there was no basis for. When she questioned why, thus asking a lawful question about procedure, he then proceeded to reach in and grab her and threaten to taser her.

    The officer (1) needed to answer her lawful question about why she was being arrested, and (2) needed to have justification to proceed to physically remove her from the car. Even if an individual ignores, for instance, a police order to exit a vehicle the police do not have blanket authority to proceed to physical force, or "seizure". Force is only justified if it is not excessive and if there is a reason such as public safety, neither of which applied. Because he did neither of those, legal scholars and even his department have agreed that he exceeded his lawful authority.

    You she did nothing wrong guys and gals are missing the main point here.Police latitude in these situations is far reaching.A simple I thought I saw,I thought I smelled,I suspected she may have had a drink, give the officer not only the right but the authority to remove her from the vehicle.She can comply or not.Non compliance can get your stupid belligerent ass thrown in jail just because.Now we all know most won't hold up but it's a fact.
    If a cop wants to strip search your vehicle after a traffic stop he can do it wether you agree or not.The minute she broke the law with the very minor lane change infraction she was in the eyes of the law,breaking the law.The officer has most the cards here.Shutting your trap and complying is your best bet.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    I fixed my post. It was supposed to say should not be able to hang themselves...
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    In my early 20's, I got pulled over a lot. Probably 15 times in three years. If I remember right, I was asked 5 or 6 times to step out of the vehicle. I didn't think anything of it. One time, at 4am, it was for a sobriety (I was on my way to work and not drinking). The others were to go into his car while he wrote the ticket or the warning.

    During my time in the fire department, I have seen over 30 people get asked to step out of their car. One man refused. Turns out, he had about 9 pounds of weed in his trunk. I don't know why this woman would refuse other than simply to be a argumentative. It makes no sense to me.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    PJ_Soul said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I think the cop was definitely an instigator of aggression. He had no reason to be grilling that woman the way he was, asking her those questions, and making her get out of the car. He approached the whole thing poorly, and the woman had what I see as an understandable reaction, taking into account the tension between cops and black people in America right now. The cop really should know better. Should she have bitten her tongue? Yes. Should the cop have approached her like a normal cop would during a routine traffic stop? Yes. If anyone should shoulder responsibility for doing something wrong, it should be the COP. He's doing a paid service. He has some responsibilities to meet as a trained, paid employee of the city and a keeper of the peace. The woman is under no such responsibility.

    But that actually has nothing to do with the real problem here. I'm much more concerned about her death in police custody.

    That's unbelievable. Your first sentence anyway. Even though I don't think cops should have to babysit all prisoners all the time, people should be able to hang themselves in the cells.
    But what if she didn't hang herself?? That is the entire point.
    Ok. I doubt the arresting officer killed her.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Last-12-Exit said:

    In my early 20's, I got pulled over a lot. Probably 15 times in three years. If I remember right, I was asked 5 or 6 times to step out of the vehicle. I didn't think anything of it. One time, at 4am, it was for a sobriety (I was on my way to work and not drinking). The others were to go into his car while he wrote the ticket or the warning.

    During my time in the fire department, I have seen over 30 people get asked to step out of their car. One man refused. Turns out, he had about 9 pounds of weed in his trunk. I don't know why this woman would refuse other than simply to be a argumentative. It makes no sense to me.

    You can't understand why a black woman doesn't want to get out of her car and put herself under the control of a male officer? Really?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    rr165892 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Did anyone read the transcript that rgambs posted? It's pretty clear that when the officer asked Sandra if she was okay, he wasn't really asking out of concern; when she gave an honest answer of why she was upset, he replied with "are you done yet?", not exactly an answer that suggests he cared about her concerns. When he asked if she would "mind" putting out her cigarette, and she asked why she needed to - a legitimate question - he then demanded she get out of the car, something that there was no basis for. When she questioned why, thus asking a lawful question about procedure, he then proceeded to reach in and grab her and threaten to taser her.

    The officer (1) needed to answer her lawful question about why she was being arrested, and (2) needed to have justification to proceed to physically remove her from the car. Even if an individual ignores, for instance, a police order to exit a vehicle the police do not have blanket authority to proceed to physical force, or "seizure". Force is only justified if it is not excessive and if there is a reason such as public safety, neither of which applied. Because he did neither of those, legal scholars and even his department have agreed that he exceeded his lawful authority.

    You she did nothing wrong guys and gals are missing the main point here.Police latitude in these situations is far reaching.A simple I thought I saw,I thought I smelled,I suspected she may have had a drink, give the officer not only the right but the authority to remove her from the vehicle.She can comply or not.Non compliance can get your stupid belligerent ass thrown in jail just because.Now we all know most won't hold up but it's a fact.
    If a cop wants to strip search your vehicle after a traffic stop he can do it wether you agree or not.The minute she broke the law with the very minor lane change infraction she was in the eyes of the law,breaking the law.The officer has most the cards here.Shutting your trap and complying is your best bet.
    Why is it her responsibility to waive her constitutionally granted rights and not his responsibility to respect those rights?
    What is this, fucking North Korea?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    dignin said:



    Last-12-Exit said:

    This is what happens when you don't respect the profession.

    Where I come from, you don't demand respect, you earn it.

    Sure. And exactly what did this woman do to 'earn' respect? What had the cop 'initially' done to lose respect? I say 'initially' because from all I could see, the cop was very courteous and patient. He eventually lost 'some' control and began yelling while taking the situation to the next level. I say 'some' because the bulk of this calamity rests on her shoulders- she reaped what she had sown.

    We can agree that the cop could have handled it differently, but he didn't. He's not abusive for handling it the way he did though. The only abusive one in that video was the woman who became belligerent and rude over a simple traffic violation.
    Oh come on, did you even read the transcript? So rudeness is abuse now and physical assault isn't?
    He violated her bodily sovereignty and that doesn't seem to matter to you, RR, or Last, but it matters to some people.
    You don't put your hands on me without permission, period.
    That you are 3 so willing to give up your rights to anyone in a uniform is shocking. You abdicate all responsibility for a paid servant of justice because some woman dared to tell him how she really felt. Sad.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    rgambs said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    In my early 20's, I got pulled over a lot. Probably 15 times in three years. If I remember right, I was asked 5 or 6 times to step out of the vehicle. I didn't think anything of it. One time, at 4am, it was for a sobriety (I was on my way to work and not drinking). The others were to go into his car while he wrote the ticket or the warning.

    During my time in the fire department, I have seen over 30 people get asked to step out of their car. One man refused. Turns out, he had about 9 pounds of weed in his trunk. I don't know why this woman would refuse other than simply to be a argumentative. It makes no sense to me.

    You can't understand why a black woman doesn't want to get out of her car and put herself under the control of a male officer? Really?
    No, I can't understand it. Are cops raping black woman on camera?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Last-12-Exit said:

    rgambs said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    In my early 20's, I got pulled over a lot. Probably 15 times in three years. If I remember right, I was asked 5 or 6 times to step out of the vehicle. I didn't think anything of it. One time, at 4am, it was for a sobriety (I was on my way to work and not drinking). The others were to go into his car while he wrote the ticket or the warning.

    During my time in the fire department, I have seen over 30 people get asked to step out of their car. One man refused. Turns out, he had about 9 pounds of weed in his trunk. I don't know why this woman would refuse other than simply to be a argumentative. It makes no sense to me.

    You can't understand why a black woman doesn't want to get out of her car and put herself under the control of a male officer? Really?
    No, I can't understand it. Are cops raping black woman on camera?
    http://www.thenation.com/article/police-violence-we-arent-talking-about/

    Hyperbole aside, yes sexual assault by police officers is a serious problem. But then you would never believe that about your brothers in blue would you?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    I wonder why there are no responses to the latest posts in the Police Abuse thread?
    Because it doesn't fit the 99% of cops are good narrative? Because the system of cooperation with abuse is an indictment against the idea that it's only a few bad apples?
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    oftenreading said:

    Did anyone read the transcript that rgambs posted? It's pretty clear that when the officer asked Sandra if she was okay, he wasn't really asking out of concern; when she gave an honest answer of why she was upset, he replied with "are you done yet?", not exactly an answer that suggests he cared about her concerns. When he asked if she would "mind" putting out her cigarette, and she asked why she needed to - a legitimate question - he then demanded she get out of the car, something that there was no basis for. When she questioned why, thus asking a lawful question about procedure, he then proceeded to reach in and grab her and threaten to taser her.

    The officer (1) needed to answer her lawful question about why she was being arrested, and (2) needed to have justification to proceed to physically remove her from the car. Even if an individual ignores, for instance, a police order to exit a vehicle the police do not have blanket authority to proceed to physical force, or "seizure". Force is only justified if it is not excessive and if there is a reason such as public safety, neither of which applied. Because he did neither of those, legal scholars and even his department have agreed that he exceeded his lawful authority.

    Come on.

    He asked her how she was doing and she proceeded to tear a strip off him in lunatic fashion. You are surprised that he responded with, "Are you done yet?"

    As much as your first passage is fraught with bias... your second passage bears credibility and speaks to the failings of the officer in this situation. He needed to answer her questions- not that I think she would have accepted his answers or shrieked over top of him as he might have attempted to do so.

    But his failings amounted to a lack of tolerance for someone berating him. They never contributed to any harm or the eventual death of this woman- she can own that (unless an investigation reveals that Texas law enforcement placed a plastic bag over her head and hung her in her jail cell).

    Wow. Just wow.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    rgambs said:

    I wonder why there are no responses to the latest posts in the Police Abuse thread?
    Because it doesn't fit the 99% of cops are good narrative? Because the system of cooperation with abuse is an indictment against the idea that it's only a few bad apples?

    Firstly, this comment (quoted from the text): The allegations, which have not been independently verified...

    I'm inclined to believe the guy to some degree, but no, RG, I'm not going to dive in on the out of control and widespread, rampant abuse that you endorse. The abuse is the exception.

    Secondly, we are not discussing a cop shitting on someone's bed. Present that case and I'll chime in with my disgust. We are talking about a cop that dealt with a belligerent woman who became very challenging at a routine stop for no good reason.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    edited July 2015
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    rgambs said:

    I wonder why there are no responses to the latest posts in the Police Abuse thread?
    Because it doesn't fit the 99% of cops are good narrative? Because the system of cooperation with abuse is an indictment against the idea that it's only a few bad apples?

    Firstly, this comment (quoted from the text): The allegations, which have not been independently verified...

    I'm inclined to believe the guy to some degree, but no, RG, I'm not going to dive in on the out of control and widespread, rampant abuse that you endorse. The abuse is the exception.

    Secondly, we are not discussing a cop shitting on someone's bed. Present that case and I'll chime in with my disgust. We are talking about a cop that dealt with a belligerent woman who became very challenging at a routine stop for no good reason.
    Debating you can be rather irritating. You use hyperbole and sarcasm relentlessly, and you always frame a situation in a way that argues your point. Paraphrasing:
    She blew a cloud of smoke in his face.
    She tore a strip off him in lunatic fashion.
    She became very challenging for no good reason.
    These tactics are questionable and if you can't make a point without them it weakens the point.

    *Edit
    I am not saying we don't all (myself included) use those tactics at times, but it seems to be a real habit for you.
    You post how you want to post though, that's groovy.
    It just annoys me sometimes lol
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    rgambs said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    rgambs said:

    I wonder why there are no responses to the latest posts in the Police Abuse thread?
    Because it doesn't fit the 99% of cops are good narrative? Because the system of cooperation with abuse is an indictment against the idea that it's only a few bad apples?

    Firstly, this comment (quoted from the text): The allegations, which have not been independently verified...

    I'm inclined to believe the guy to some degree, but no, RG, I'm not going to dive in on the out of control and widespread, rampant abuse that you endorse. The abuse is the exception.

    Secondly, we are not discussing a cop shitting on someone's bed. Present that case and I'll chime in with my disgust. We are talking about a cop that dealt with a belligerent woman who became very challenging at a routine stop for no good reason.
    Debating you can be rather irritating. You use hyperbole and sarcasm relentlessly, and you always frame a situation in a way that argues your point. Paraphrasing:
    She blew a cloud of smoke in his face.
    She tore a strip off him in lunatic fashion.
    She became very challenging for no good reason.
    These tactics are questionable and if you can't make a point without them it weakens the point.

    *Edit
    I am not saying we don't all (myself included) use those tactics at times, but it seems to be a real habit for you.
    You post how you want to post though, that's groovy.
    It just annoys me sometimes lol
    Have a look at these examples of sarcasm blurted out beautifully:

    Because it doesn't fit the 99% of cops are good narrative? Because the system of cooperation with abuse is an indictment against the idea that it's only a few bad apples?

    Hyperbole aside, yes sexual assault by police officers is a serious problem. But then you would never believe that about your brothers in blue would you?

    I didn't have to go very far to get them- just the last two posts you submitted before this one where you attack me of my style. You've got your groovy style too, RG.

    And are you sure it's my style... or is it more what I say when it is in opposition to your way of thinking?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • cutz
    cutz Posts: 12,274
    edited July 2015
    hedonist said:

    cutz said:

    I think the Cop was WRONG(for instigating IMO> Put out your cigarette? Plus, why did he ask her how long have you been in Texas?). He should've just had her sign the warning and let her be on her way, and that would've been the end of it. I agreed with her: all of that for not signaling for a lane change? Really? I know i would've been pissed too. I guess the cops have nothing else better to do?

    Just TRAGIC.

    It is tragic for sure. Whether her life was taken by another or by her own hand, a person who was obviously loved is dead.

    With this said, I'm pretty sure that using your signal to...wait for it...SIGNAL that you're changing lanes is the law. Not doing so has caused some pretty fucked up accidents. Don't wanna do it? Fine - fuck knows I've flouted my share of rules and regs - but then face the consequences. And be respectful when pulled over for it. How that is so difficult is beyond me.

    And, asking someone to put out their cigarette at a stop isn't an over-the-top request...is it? Just to give full attention to what's going on, sign the shit and be on your way?

    Yeah, i know that it's the law to use your SIGNAL when making a lane change.

    I guess the cop just couldn't let her sign the warning, and let her be on her way, because it would've taken so LONG for her to sign it that he would've taken so much smoke into his lungs>LOL>He could've just taken a half step back for the few seconds, if it bothered him, for her to sign the warning , and then take it and go back to his car.

    Post edited by cutz on

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