The Death Penalty

Last-12-Exit said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I don't know what the statistics are, but I would bet that less than 1% of the people put to death are innocent. No, I don't want to see ANY person executed for a crime he didn't commit. But if the problem is wrongly convicting people, than the death penalty is NOT the issue.

baffling.

What? That I'm ok with a child raping murderer being put to death? If there is video and DNA evidence supporting the guilty verdict, there's no reason to let scum like that live. What's more baffling is that you support sick fucks like that to breathe the same air as you. You can what if everything. Yes, video evidence can be tampered with and DNA can be planted. If somebody is capable of manipulating both to get somebody a death sentence, then chances are that person find an easier way in which to kill someone.

JimmyV said:

callen said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

If video evidence is being manipulated and crooked cops are planting DNA, then the death penalty is not the issue.

those possibilities absolutely make the DP the issue. that's the entire point.

No, because those possibilities are issues unto themselves. A false conviction that leads to a prison sentence is no small thing. Falsifying evidence is the problem here, not the death penalty.

the propensity of the human race to fuck up is the problem. the death penalty, the penal system, murders themselves, those are all under the same umbrella that makes the death penalty a problem: humans are imperfect beings who produce technology that is able to be manipulated.

you can't go back from death. that's a mistake that cannot be undone.

thirty is big on the "so what do you tell the victim's family? sorry, but we are just going to give the murderer a hug and let him go" idea, let's flip that: how do you tell a little girl or boy that you fucked up and killed their dad? "whoops! callateral damage of the system! but we killed a REALLY guilty guy last night! hope that makes you feel better! here's a wah-wee-pop!"?

It's true, you can't go back from death, but you also can't give back a life wasted in prison. In neither case is the penalty the issue. The false conviction is.

It would be terrible to tell a little girl or boy that you fucked up and killed their dad. But, it would also be terrible to tell a little girl or boy that their dad was killed by a murderer who had already been convicted once for similar crime.

BUT THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

No, in my scenario the innocent victim is quite dead.

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

If video evidence is being manipulated and crooked cops are planting DNA, then the death penalty is not the issue.

those possibilities absolutely make the DP the issue. that's the entire point.

No, because those possibilities are issues unto themselves. A false conviction that leads to a prison sentence is no small thing. Falsifying evidence is the problem here, not the death penalty.

the propensity of the human race to fuck up is the problem. the death penalty, the penal system, murders themselves, those are all under the same umbrella that makes the death penalty a problem: humans are imperfect beings who produce technology that is able to be manipulated.

you can't go back from death. that's a mistake that cannot be undone.

thirty is big on the "so what do you tell the victim's family? sorry, but we are just going to give the murderer a hug and let him go" idea, let's flip that: how do you tell a little girl or boy that you fucked up and killed their dad? "whoops! callateral damage of the system! but we killed a REALLY guilty guy last night! hope that makes you feel better! here's a wah-wee-pop!"?

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

callen said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

JimmyV said:

If video evidence is being manipulated and crooked cops are planting DNA, then the death penalty is not the issue.

those possibilities absolutely make the DP the issue. that's the entire point.

No, because those possibilities are issues unto themselves. A false conviction that leads to a prison sentence is no small thing. Falsifying evidence is the problem here, not the death penalty.

the propensity of the human race to fuck up is the problem. the death penalty, the penal system, murders themselves, those are all under the same umbrella that makes the death penalty a problem: humans are imperfect beings who produce technology that is able to be manipulated.

you can't go back from death. that's a mistake that cannot be undone.

thirty is big on the "so what do you tell the victim's family? sorry, but we are just going to give the murderer a hug and let him go" idea, let's flip that: how do you tell a little girl or boy that you fucked up and killed their dad? "whoops! callateral damage of the system! but we killed a REALLY guilty guy last night! hope that makes you feel better! here's a wah-wee-pop!"?

It's true, you can't go back from death, but you also can't give back a life wasted in prison. In neither case is the penalty the issue. The false conviction is.

It would be terrible to tell a little girl or boy that you fucked up and killed their dad. But, it would also be terrible to tell a little girl or boy that their dad was killed by a murderer who had already been convicted once for similar crime.

BUT THEY ARE STILL ALIVE.

No, in my scenario the innocent victim is quite dead.

And so is the wrongly convicted innocent victim.

No, that was your scenario. In mine there was no wrongly convicted victim, only a justly convicted murder who was allowed to go to prison and who found a way to kill again.

It actually all started with responding to my scenario. Take a look.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

You're stuck on my tongue in cheek comment about them 'enthusiastically' moving him through the prison system? Okay... if it makes you feel better... I'll rephrase:

In a stunning manner that defies all common sense and betrays incompetence at least on some levels (if not all), prison officials saw fit to perpetually push him to lower security prisons.

The following link expresses the same and cites McGary's own words to officials that seem to suggest he wasn't fit for anything other than super-maximum security where he was initially sentenced: "Just because I'm in segregation doesn't mean I can't kill somebody."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/29/prison-couldnt-keep-michael-wayne-mcgray-from-killing-just-like-he-said-it-wouldnt/

Now get off the 'why was he downgraded' questions to me. How the fuck can I answer those? The idiots that paid millions of dollars for their grievous errors haven't exactly made those details accessible. Can you blame them? How embarrassing. But not having the paperwork at my disposal doesn't change the fact that this situation was a calamity fraught with errors. Are you disputing this?

And get on with responding to a more challenging point I made.

I said that if this asshole got what I think he deserved as a serial murderer- keep in mind an 11 year old girl was one of his victims- there would be one less victim in his tally. Hence, in this case where there isn't a shred of doubt outside of his public boasts of even more decomposing bodies from Seattle to the maritimes... the DP would have not only served justice, but also acted as a deterrent. Can you dispute this?

* Quote feature required me to edit.

it's not tongue-in-cheek. it's a pattern of hyper-dramatization that doesn't further your cause or the discussion. if it isn't checked, it generally gets worse.

but how can anything defy common sense, when you don't even know why it was done? it's a really big assumption you are making.

"how the fuck can I answer those?". I was wondering if you were privy to some documents that I was not, since you are claiming it was a major clusterfuck. I was wondering where this conclusion was derived from. with zero facts, as you have admitted, I'm still left wondering.

I am asking that because, regardless of the consequences, there may have been a legitimate reason for downgrading him. did they fuck up? possibly. but the result of his downgrading, by definition, does not constitute the fuck up. the reason for his downgrading, possibly does constitute the fuck up. i.e: if an error in judgment was made (or if the facts were merely ignored) based on his risk of reoffending, then yes, obviously, that's a major fuckup. without access to their reasoning, it's impossible to know if they fucked it up or not.

hindsight, as they say, is 20/20, and seems to be 99% of your argument. "see, if they woulda killed him, he never woulda done that!".

you are making a sweeping judgment based on the result of their decision, not on the initial reasoning that was a precursor to that result.

how do you expect the system to improve if questions like the one I posed aren't asked?

well of course if he was dead he couldn't do any more harm. that's obvious. in any case, that does not convince me that we should kill them all in case they might kill again.

pdalowsky said:

I find myself returning here today purely due to the horrendous news that the Indonesian authorities are about to put to dealt the Bali 9........I find that absolutely repugnant. Yet on news sites reporting it, the masses of comments are baying for their blood. I find it unbelievable

but whilst here, once putting aside the potential for wrong convictions etc, how does everyone feel about that bastard whos currently having his DP hearing.....the Boston bomber? I mean unquestionable guilt, zero remorse.......

im not a pro DP person whatsoever, but I am having a hard time arguing against it for him when the case is so open and shut.

JimmyV said:

pdalowsky said:

I find myself returning here today purely due to the horrendous news that the Indonesian authorities are about to put to dealt the Bali 9........I find that absolutely repugnant. Yet on news sites reporting it, the masses of comments are baying for their blood. I find it unbelievable

but whilst here, once putting aside the potential for wrong convictions etc, how does everyone feel about that bastard whos currently having his DP hearing.....the Boston bomber? I mean unquestionable guilt, zero remorse.......

im not a pro DP person whatsoever, but I am having a hard time arguing against it for him when the case is so open and shut.

He's a textbook case for me because there is no question of guilt and his crime warrants the death penalty. I'm conflicted though because I do worry that if executed he will become a martyr and inspiration for other misguided souls who would play at terrorist. Maybe in this case a dark room at a SuperMax prison is better...but maybe not. I just don't know.