Now back to Israel as usual

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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,336
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    no, they don't. it is israel's way or no way. if you criticize them you hate jewish people. that is the argument they use.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    no, they don't. it is israel's way or no way. if you criticize them you hate jewish people. that is the argument they use.
    Yup, not to long ago I was told that I'd want every Israeli supporter to wear yellow stars on their arms. Fucken pathetic.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,336
    this is what i have been saying since 2008. i am glad that journalists in an israeli newspaper FINALLY call it that way.

    Israel chooses the path to apartheid
    It was once possible to argue that Israel's policies were not the same as apartheid because their stated goal, however imperfectly pursued, was to end the occupation. After Netanyahu's reelection, this is no longer the case.

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.648006

    In my quarter century as Washington correspondent for Jewish newspapers, I frequently defended Israel against charges that it had created an apartheid system in the West Bank. But this week's election, with Benjamin Netanyahu poised to serve another term with an even more hardline coalition, means that apartheid is the path Israeli voters have chosen. The inevitable results will include even greater international isolation for the Jewish state, a boost to efforts to apply boycotts and sanctions, diminished support from American Jews and endlessly intensifying cycles of violence.

    Since the Madrid peace process began in 1991, it was possible – though sometimes with great difficulty – to argue that Israel wanted to find some route to accommodation with the Palestinians. Sure, there were huge obstacles to overcome, not the least of which was a shortsighted Palestinian leadership and a volatile, nervous electorate in Israel.

    But government after government at least said the right things about the need to create a Palestinian state and to make painful compromises, even if action lagged far behind the words.

    It was possible to accept journalist Gershom Gorenberg's thesis that the occupation was an "accidental empire," its endurance shaped less by determined policies than by inertia and political cowardice. It was awful to watch even progressive governments cringe before an aggressive settlers movement, but it was understandable, especially for Americans accustomed to the timidity of our own leaders in the face of aggressive extremists.

    The idea of apartheid suggests the intent to make separation and unequal treatment permanent, and in the past it was possible to argue that for all the expansion of settlements, Israel was still looking for ways to end the occupation.

    No more.

    Frightened by the last minute rise of the Zionist Union list in polls, Netanyahu unambiguously expressed what critics have long asserted was his core ideology: no Palestinian state. No territorial concessions. None. Period.

    And Israel's voters returned him to office, in what was widely reported as a resounding victory.

    He was returned to power despite his attempt to shore up support on his political right by coming to Washington and undermining the relationship with Israel's most critical ally, the United States, and by giving a huge boost to Republican efforts to make support for Israel a political wedge issue instead of the bipartisan cause it has always been.

    He was returned to power despite the ugly attempt to scare voters with the specter of a big turnout of Israeli Arabs.

    And he was returned to power after his crystal clear rejection of Palestinian statehood and the territorial compromise that most of the world believes is the only way to ensure a peaceful future for a democratic Jewish state. There were reports this week that Netanyahu was attempting to walk those comments back, but his credibility on the issue of Palestinian statehood, never strong, is nonexistent.

    In the absence of any willingness to work toward a Palestinian state in the West Bank, the future is clear: continuing occupation with no effort to find a way to end it, accelerating settlement construction and a hardening of policies toward Palestinians in the West Bank.

    In other words, apartheid.

    Mainstream Jewish groups go ballistic when they hear the term because of what it implies: an official policy of unfairness so profound that a fractious world unites against it with sanctions, boycotts and a pariah label for the perpetrators.

    Once, it was possible to argue that Israel's policies were not the same as apartheid because their stated goal, however imperfectly pursued, was to end the occupation. No more: Bibi's reelection makes it clear that Israeli voters, more clearly aware of Netanyahu's intent than ever, have chosen the apartheid path, and will now have to live with the consequences.

    American Jewish groups, key players in the coalition against South African apartheid, will resort to verbal gymnastics to argue that it's not the same. Or they will simply use the convenient ploy of pointing out all the bad decisions made by Palestinian leaders over the years. When the inevitable violence erupts and when the Palestinians, left with no other options, renew their push to condemn Israel in international bodies, they will circle the wagons to defend a Jewish state they claim is unfairly treated by a hostile world. They will ratchet up efforts to stifle even moderate dissent in the Jewish world. They'll blame the deepening divisions in the Jewish community on J Street.

    Or they will say the no-statehood pledge was just politics as usual in Israel's fractious democracy, as meaningless as most other campaign promises.

    And nobody outside an increasingly narrow pro-Israel tent will buy it. Because apartheid is apartheid, and that's exactly what Israeli voters chose this week as a course for their nation.

    James Besser was Washington correspondent for the New York Jewish Week and other Anglo-Jewish newspapers for 24 years before his retirement in 2011.

    image
    A Feb. 17, 2012 file photo showing a protest against Israel's separation barrier in the West Bank village of Bilin. Photo by AP
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Thanks for posting Gimmie.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2015
    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    If it looks like a duck, and it sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. If Israel says a one-state solution and a two-state solution are both infeasible options, do tell me how Israel wishes to negotiate. Coupons to McDavid's?

    If Israel wished to negotiate, they would recognize the long-standing and justifiable aggression and opposition to Israeli presence in what was once peaceful and secularly-driven land, and uphold the notions of nobility and justice through the democracy they so cling to. They would say 'these are the cards we have been dealt, and we will negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent'.

    They have done no such thing: each deal offers the same slap in the face for the same reason. Israel can not offer reparations and citizen status to 1948-67 Palestinian refugees because in one fell swoop it would delegitimize the seizure of land in 1948 (admitting that Palestinians were dislocated from their home, or at least that their homes were claimed upon their absence based on fear of Jewish invasion). In addition, it would utterly destroy Jewish superiority in the region (since an influx of - or voting rights being provided to upwards of 5.5 million Palestinian refugees would actually yield a similar voting Arab population as to Jewish population - plus the Arab growth rate of 2.2% is greater than the Jewish growth rate of 1.7%).

    It's just human nature: people in power cling to their power. I believe Israel and Israelis are about to suffer in unimaginable ways, and they're going to learn that their isolationist stance does not lead to a sustainable future in the modern world. If they're lucky, they'll right wrongs after the BDS movement takes a tremendous toll on their economy. If they're unlucky, Bibi will refuse to change his ways, and the state will be in a constant position of war.

    What Israelis said with their votes is that they are all in favour of the status quo, and they believe Netanyahu is the right person to ensure that it remains.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    benjs said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    If it looks like a duck, and it sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. If Israel says a one-state solution and a two-state solution are both infeasible options, do tell me how Israel wishes to negotiate. Coupons to McDavid's?

    If Israel wished to negotiate, they would recognize the long-standing and justifiable aggression and opposition to Israeli presence in what was once peaceful and secularly-driven land, and uphold the notions of nobility and justice through the democracy they so cling to. They would say 'these are the cards we have been dealt, and we will negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent'.

    They have done no such thing: each deal offers the same slap in the face for the same reason. Israel can not offer reparations and citizen status to 1948-67 Palestinian refugees because in one fell swoop it would delegitimize the seizure of land in 1948 (admitting that Palestinians were dislocated from their home, or at least that their homes were claimed upon their absence based on fear of Jewish invasion). In addition, it would utterly destroy Jewish superiority in the region (since an influx of - or voting rights being provided to upwards of 5.5 million Palestinian refugees would actually yield a similar voting Arab population as to Jewish population - plus the Arab growth rate of 2.2% is greater than the Jewish growth rate of 1.7%).

    It's just human nature: people in power cling to their power. I believe Israel and Israelis are about to suffer in unimaginable ways, and they're going to learn that their isolationist stance does not lead to a sustainable future in the modern world. If they're lucky, they'll right wrongs after the BDS movement takes a tremendous toll on their economy. If they're unlucky, Bibi will refuse to change his ways, and the state will be in a constant position of war.

    What Israelis said with their votes is that they are all in favour of the status quo, and they believe Netanyahu is the right person to ensure that it remains.
    Stop it Ben, you're making to much sense my friend.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    benjs said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    If Israel wished to negotiate, they would recognize the long-standing and justifiable aggression and opposition to Israeli presence in what was once peaceful and secularly-driven land, and uphold the notions of nobility and justice through the democracy they so cling to. They would say 'these are the cards we have been dealt, and we will negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent'.

    This "once peaceful and secularly-driven land" no longer exists. Again you are all just proving my point. If the attitude of current Israeli opposition is Israel "must negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent" then the status quo shall unfortunately continue. Substituting an Israeli oppressor for an Islamist one is effectively what your are advocating and this is not acceptable to any rational person. Again you must try to recognize reality. There is no cavalry coming to rescue Palestine. Israel's Arab neighbours now recognize Hamas as an enemy. There are no sanctions that will break Israel. Israel will not trade security for peace. Those are the facts on the ground whether you like it or not. You claim to care about the plight of the Palestinians but you only enable the extremists among them and prolong their struggle.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    BS44325 said:

    benjs said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    If Israel wished to negotiate, they would recognize the long-standing and justifiable aggression and opposition to Israeli presence in what was once peaceful and secularly-driven land, and uphold the notions of nobility and justice through the democracy they so cling to. They would say 'these are the cards we have been dealt, and we will negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent'.

    This "once peaceful and secularly-driven land" no longer exists. Again you are all just proving my point. If the attitude of current Israeli opposition is Israel "must negotiate with even those who we consider to be acting barbarically, because we have oppressed and now we must repent" then the status quo shall unfortunately continue. Substituting an Israeli oppressor for an Islamist one is effectively what your are advocating and this is not acceptable to any rational person. Again you must try to recognize reality. There is no cavalry coming to rescue Palestine. Israel's Arab neighbours now recognize Hamas as an enemy. There are no sanctions that will break Israel. Israel will not trade security for peace. Those are the facts on the ground whether you like it or not. You claim to care about the plight of the Palestinians but you only enable the extremists among them and prolong their struggle.
    We shall see
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,712
    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,390
    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Now what about when Hamas' replacement surfaces? Hamas represents the ideology of resistance; and not to go with the cliche from V for Vendetta, but you just can't kill an idea.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited March 2015
    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Crushing a democratically elected government. Ok, and then what happens when "nothing" happens and the Palestinian people are "still" prisoners in their "own" country? And anther group, like Ben has stated already, comes up because again, you can't kill an idea. Just like the Zionists have an idea for Israel, the Palestinians have an idea for their own land. Goes back and forth.

    Edit-here's a theory, why not America and Israel join the "rest" of the world. Seems to be them and a tiny few islands in the pacific somewhere that support any actions Israel has taken.
    Post edited by badbrains on
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Crushing a democratically elected government. Ok, and then what happens when "nothing" happens and the Palestinian people are "still" prisoners in their "own" country? And anther group, like Ben has stated already, comes up because again, you can't kill an idea. Just like the Zionists have an idea for Israel, the Palestinians have an idea for their own land. Goes back and forth.

    Edit-here's a theory, why not America and Israel join the "rest" of the world. Seems to be them and a tiny few islands in the pacific somewhere that support any actions Israel has taken.
    And Canada
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    benjs said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Now what about when Hamas' replacement surfaces? Hamas represents the ideology of resistance; and not to go with the cliche from V for Vendetta, but you just can't kill an idea.
    Hamas has co-opted the resistance. There can be resistance without them. Think Gandhi and MLK.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,390
    edited March 2015
    BS44325 said:

    benjs said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Now what about when Hamas' replacement surfaces? Hamas represents the ideology of resistance; and not to go with the cliche from V for Vendetta, but you just can't kill an idea.
    Hamas has co-opted the resistance. There can be resistance without them. Think Gandhi and MLK.
    Of course you've chosen not to mention Mandela and his aggressive path taken towards peace... Seems pretty naive and farfetched to assume that an oppressed people who have only known violent resistance will take the Gandhi route over that.
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited March 2015
    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Crushing a democratically elected government. Ok, and then what happens when "nothing" happens and the Palestinian people are "still" prisoners in their "own" country? And anther group, like Ben has stated already, comes up because again, you can't kill an idea. Just like the Zionists have an idea for Israel, the Palestinians have an idea for their own land. Goes back and forth.

    Edit-here's a theory, why not America and Israel join the "rest" of the world. Seems to be them and a tiny few islands in the pacific somewhere that support any actions Israel has taken.
    And Canada
    Maybe the Canadian Governement who seems to have chosen the path of our own congress and senate and fill their pockets with aipac money. I doubt the people of canada support any kind of apartheid or slaughtering of innocent civilians by the Israeli regime.

    Edit-maybe just you
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    mickeyrat said:

    BS44325 said:

    HughFreakingDillon said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    Again....no matter what side of the issue you are on...this is reality:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415690/no-peace-any-time-soon-not-because-bibi-charles-krauthammer

    Who is Israel supposed to make a deal with?

    An article written by a Zionist, gee, I wonder which way this article is going to lean. Come on man, u can do better then that. Or not.
    You do realize that the Palestinians need to negotiate with zionists don't you?

    A just settlement cannot be reached if you ignore them. You are proving my point that Israel has no one to negotiate with.
    do you honestly believe they wish to negotiate?

    Yes. Israel knows that the status quo cannot continue.
    So lemme ask you then, have you questioned why those proposals were rejected throughout the years? If memory serves a major sticking point was surrounding the palestinian refugees STILL in camps to this day. PLO wanted right of return for them. Israel rejected out of hand. Is that really unreasonable for that right?
    That probably is the largest sticking point for sure and I am not sure what the correct solution is. There are Israelis who believe there should be zero right of return. There are those who believe that every generation of displaced individuals with Palestinian heritage should be able to return. I am one who believes there should be "some" right of return but how we get to that number is difficult. Israel would be willing to accept some number of people as well as the handover of additional land regardless of internal opposition. Remember they once removed jewish settlers from Gaza by force and under the right conditions they would be willing to do that again. The question is whether there is a Palestinian government willing to accept that deal? Hamas runs the show now and they seek full destruction of Israel. How does one negotiate with them?
    So with your theory, Israel doesn't want to negotiate with Hamas and Hamas doesn't want to negotiate with Israel. So now what?
    The world joins nations such as Egypt in crushing Hamas. The Palestinian Authority will then be able to exert control and deal with Israel without having to worry about the Islamist rejectionists.
    Crushing a democratically elected government. Ok, and then what happens when "nothing" happens and the Palestinian people are "still" prisoners in their "own" country? And anther group, like Ben has stated already, comes up because again, you can't kill an idea. Just like the Zionists have an idea for Israel, the Palestinians have an idea for their own land. Goes back and forth.

    Edit-here's a theory, why not America and Israel join the "rest" of the world. Seems to be them and a tiny few islands in the pacific somewhere that support any actions Israel has taken.
    And Canada
    Maybe the Canadian Governement who seems to have chosen the path of our own congress and senate and fill their pockets with aipac money. I doubt the people of canada support any kind of apartheid or slaughtering of innocent civilians by the Israeli regime.

    Edit-maybe just you
    Right...just me. Pockets loaded with aipac money. Bought and paid for by the secretive Jewish lobby that controls the world. There you go again...

This discussion has been closed.

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