Father requests sheriff to supervise spanking of daughter-and he does

rgambs · January 2015

Common sense. Actually I doubt such studies have been performed, as the study would be unable to differentiate between causation and correlation. The same as a study that links spanking with mental disorders. The relationship cannot be shown to be causal.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

I'm confused. it's common sense that tells you that you bet it's been done, but then your next sentence says you doubt it's been done?

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

rgambs wrote: »

The same as a study that links spanking with mental disorders. The relationship cannot be shown to be causal.

that would be correct:

While the data doesn’t show that spanking causes mental disorders, it does present a statistically significant correlation, said Tracie Afifi, lead author and assistant professor of community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.

but you still don't think that it should be avoided?

rgambs · January 2015

I think that children with mental issues are obviously more likely to need the sort of advanced correction that would mean spanking to some parents.

"Statistically significant correlation" does not mean what you seem to think it does. It only means that there is a connection between the two, it does not signify what the connection is. It could be evidence that spanking leads to issues, it could be evidence that issues lead to spanking. Given the extremely complicated nature of mental health, it would be more sound to assume the latter than the former, but assumptions of that sort are a waste of time.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

I know exactly what it means. like if I happen, statistically, to drink coffee more on rainy days than sunny days. there's a correlation there, but it doesn't necessarily mean that rain causes me to drink coffee, nor that the sun causes me to not drink coffee.

BUT, maybe I drink coffee more on rainy days because it's cooler out. Maybe. Maybe not. But it's probably a safe bet for my wife not to buy me a coffee on a hot day.

how could it be more sound to assume the latter if you admit that very assumption is a waste of time?

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

rgambs wrote: »

I think that children with mental issues are obviously more likely to need the sort of advanced correction that would mean spanking to some parents.

and as to this point, you believe it is ok to smack a kid with mental issues as a way to correct behaviour? if there are mental issues, it is less likely the kid will react in the manner in which you'd expect a child to, and conversely, could make it worse.

rgambs · January 2015

I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.

rgambs · January 2015

Just because it's a waste of time to make assumptions doesn't mean the assumptions make the same amount of sense.

chadwick · January 2015

nicely done, rgambs.

rgambs wrote: »

I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.

yep i agree

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

rgambs wrote: »

I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.

and what about the studies that claim corporal punishment has a negilgible effect on people in future years? are those also biased?

yes, there are many ways parents can fuck up. but um, this thread is about spanking, specifically it started about this situation of this father humiliating his tween daughter. not about bad/good parenting in general, as was stated earlier.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

oftenreading wrote: »

There have been decades of research on the issue of the impact of corporal punishment as a form of discipline, and the outcomes are very consistent - corporal punishment can improve immediate behaviour (because the child is afraid of further punishment) but in the medium and long term leads to worse behaviour, particularly a higher rate of aggression toward others but also poorer ability to self-manage behaviour and less compliance with rules. Children who are hit tend to hit other children, both within and outside the family, and later on go on to higher rates of illegal behaviour.

Of course some will always stand up and say "I was spanked and it didn't do me any harm", much like people who say "my grandpa smoked and he lived to 90!". The evidence is pretty clear about the harms.

And as a parent I can also attest that it is perfectly possible to raise kids who are great citizens without hitting them, although at times when they are little you certainly feel like you'd like to hit something....

I don't recall any of the "it's ok to spank" responding to this from page 1. Anyone care to?

rgambs · January 2015

Yes I do think the studies that show no ill effects from spanking are biased as well. There is no way to account for the thousands of variables (temperment, resiliency, sensitivity of the child, severity and frequency of punishment, punishable offenses etc) which make these kinds of studies scientifically suspect if not worthless.

To respond to the post you referenced from page 1, that summary of tj e research on CP is over-reaching, and based on biased research. And while it is prefectly possible for SOME parents to raise SOME kids without CP, it is also perfectly possible for SOME parents to fail SOME kids by refusing to use a tool which can be argued effective.

You never answered my question, if a persons child persists in dangerous behavior and dies as a result, will that person not hate themselves for failing to use every means possible to keep their child alive?

rgambs · January 2015

To be clear, I am not saying the bias is always intentional, although I am sure sometimes it is. Bias can be found in all studies on human behavior, based on the variables which are selected to be included, which is why I reject studies on human behavior for the most part. Correlations can be made, and common sense can be used to make conclusions in some cases, but it is speculative, not definitive.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2015

I didn't intentionally ignore that question, but I'll answer it now: I don't think it would ever enter my mind that hitting my kid would have been the method that saved their life. I just don't buy it.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · February 2015

There you go folks, blessing and all.
Spank away! Hallelujah.!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/02/05/world/europe/ap-eu-rel-vatican-spanking-kids.html?_r=0

HughFreakingDillon · February 2015

One time, I heard a father in a meeting with married couples say 'I sometimes have to smack my children a bit, but never in the face so as to not humiliate them,'" Francis said.

"How beautiful!" Francis remarked. "He knows the sense of dignity! He has to punish them but does it justly and moves on."

yeah, cause making a child pull their pants down, bend over, and get smacked on the ass with or without an instrument is full of dignity.

"how beautiful?" says the pope? how is that even remotely beautiful? what an odd thing to say.

rgambs · February 2015

That is an odd way to say it. I'd say a slap to the face leaves more dignity than the pants down bend over approach.

jeffbr · February 2015

Well, this is an organization that has condoned and institutionalized the diddling of kids for years, so I guess child abuse is right up their alley. Well, as long as it's done with dignity.

pdalowsky · February 2015

some interesting stuff in this thread, I have two boys and am firmly in the camp that there should never be a need to lay a finger on them.

I was brought up well disciplined, by parents who were firm but fair.....I never wanted to disappoint my folks, and always feared doing so.....purely because I knew how intensely proud they were of me and my brother. They never raised a hand to us, but we were actuely aware of where the boundaries were.........I have always tried to follow their parenting style........

oftenreading · February 2015

pdalowsky wrote: »

some interesting stuff in this thread, I have two boys and am firmly in the camp that there should never be a need to lay a finger on them.

I was brought up well disciplined, by parents who were firm but fair.....I never wanted to disappoint my folks, and always feared doing so.....purely because I knew how intensely proud they were of me and my brother. They never raised a hand to us, but we were actuely aware of where the boundaries were.........I have always tried to follow their parenting style........

Good thoughts, pdalowsky, and I think you've reached the core of it, which is the relationship between parent and child. When the parents have worked hard to have it based on love and respect (i.e., the parents have behaved in ways which promote the children respecting their parents and wanting their good opinion), then the kids want to preserve that, and you can draw on that in difficult situations. I've been surprised at the argument that physical discipline is "necessary", when millions (tens of millions??) of parents don't use physical discipline and do quite well. Sounds as if you had great role models.

Father requests sheriff to supervise spanking of daughter-and he does

Comments

Categories