To cut off a fruitless line of debate before it starts, no I haven't raised kids of my own yet. I have helped raise my neice for a few years and I have watched alot of other kids and *shock* I spanked some of them. Your success stories on how you didn't paddle your kids don't mean squat more than the success stories of those who did, despite your opinion otherwise. When you lay clear rules and you talk to a child and explain why they shouldn't put things in electrical sockets, when you use time out and take their toys and you catch them trying still to put a paperclip in a wall socket, you roll the dice and spank their little butt and hope they get the message. Or you roll the dice and take your chances on what already failed, either way, the judgement can be left aside. Either way, there are a million ways for a child to hurt themselves and if they manage to grow up without doing so, there is a fair amount of luck involved.
I don't think it's so much of a 'Gee, I better not because my father will hit me' as much as it is an accentuation of the significance of the undesirable behavior- 'This behavior is particularly poor' compared to other behaviors that simply warrant a timeout or a talk.
I can also remember vividly how often words were lost on me and never had any influence on curbing behaviors that needed to be addressed. I'd nod my head and say the right things, but it was business as usual until Dad threatened corporal punishment or exerted it- I'd respond then. So, Hugh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while spanking never did anything positive for you... it does for some others.
As parents set about performing the most challenging thing they'll be faced with in their lifetime (raising children), for some situations, giving a kid a swat on the butt might be reasonable despite being undesirable or distasteful at the same time.
There is no 'one way' to raise a child.
Sure there is: no abuse. To me it is as black and white as that.
Abuse most certainly doesn't fit within the perameters of appropriate child rearing practices. To this we can agree.
What we might not agree on is what constitutes abuse. I just don't see a swat on the butt ushering a kid to their room on a rare instance as abuse.
This makes sense to me - the (personal?) definitions of abuse.
Not so sure it's black and white, Hugh...at least from here.
Also noting the need to let anger subside beforehand, as gambs mentioned.
(for some reason, I find it difficult to properly articulate my thoughts on this subject)
I think what most needs to be measured is the love one is offering a child. To my way of thinking, this is the critical piece.
We can debate forever what is appropriate and what isn't, but I think we should save judgments in this department (the discipline one that is).
I bite my tongue when I watch my really young nephew disrespect his parents. I see multiple efforts try to dissuade this cool young guy's bad behavior... and all seem weak. Given the behavior hasn't as of yet changed and the child almost immediately resumes his poor disposition after a 'timeout' or 'chat'... it might be fair to say my brother and sister in law need a firmer hand. However, I'm not the parent and given the love I see, it's simply not my place to cast judgement or to try and tell them how to deal with it.
I can accept a softer approach just as much as I can accept a firmer hand when love is evident.
I couldn't agree with you more that the basis of parenting is a strong loving relationship with your child. Setting aside many of the issues already raised here, and not making any comment on your brother and sister-in-law's parenting, can we agree that it is possible to be absolutely firm in terms of what one will and will not accept from a child (particularly a young one who doesn't have the independent capacity to walk out the door), and the fortitude to follow through with limit setting if appropriate behaviour isn't present, without it having to involve violence? I have personally found it to be so, but you need to be able to be the one who doesn't blink, metaphorically speaking.
To some degree, yes. But here's the thing... not all people have the capacity to skillfully navigate a course of discipline without having the firm hand in their back pocket.
It's idealistic, but if we are honest with ourselves... unrealistic.
So do the skilled parents (such as yourself) who have managed to be able to spend much more time with their children and have the skill set to nurture in the most gentle fashion sneer at those that offer the same amount of love, yet parent differently than them and to the best of their abilities?
It's my basic position, bottom line position that violence toward others isn't okay, whether they are children or adults. That guides a lot of my behaviour. You may call that sneering at people who don't share this view, but I don't. I do think that any person, parent or not, could choose to make that their bottom line as well and then figure out for themselves how to proceed. After all, each of us who are parents have to figure it all out for ourselves, deciding what opinions to listen to and what to disregard. There is a lot of practical as well as emotional support available out there for those who do decide not to use violence.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
I don't think it's so much of a 'Gee, I better not because my father will hit me' as much as it is an accentuation of the significance of the undesirable behavior- 'This behavior is particularly poor' compared to other behaviors that simply warrant a timeout or a talk.
I can also remember vividly how often words were lost on me and never had any influence on curbing behaviors that needed to be addressed. I'd nod my head and say the right things, but it was business as usual until Dad threatened corporal punishment or exerted it- I'd respond then. So, Hugh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while spanking never did anything positive for you... it does for some others.
As parents set about performing the most challenging thing they'll be faced with in their lifetime (raising children), for some situations, giving a kid a swat on the butt might be reasonable despite being undesirable or distasteful at the same time.
There is no 'one way' to raise a child.
Sure there is: no abuse. To me it is as black and white as that.
Abuse most certainly doesn't fit within the perameters of appropriate child rearing practices. To this we can agree.
What we might not agree on is what constitutes abuse. I just don't see a swat on the butt ushering a kid to their room on a rare instance as abuse.
This makes sense to me - the (personal?) definitions of abuse.
Not so sure it's black and white, Hugh...at least from here.
Also noting the need to let anger subside beforehand, as gambs mentioned.
(for some reason, I find it difficult to properly articulate my thoughts on this subject)
I think what most needs to be measured is the love one is offering a child. To my way of thinking, this is the critical piece.
We can debate forever what is appropriate and what isn't, but I think we should save judgments in this department (the discipline one that is).
I bite my tongue when I watch my really young nephew disrespect his parents. I see multiple efforts try to dissuade this cool young guy's bad behavior... and all seem weak. Given the behavior hasn't as of yet changed and the child almost immediately resumes his poor disposition after a 'timeout' or 'chat'... it might be fair to say my brother and sister in law need a firmer hand. However, I'm not the parent and given the love I see, it's simply not my place to cast judgement or to try and tell them how to deal with it.
I can accept a softer approach just as much as I can accept a firmer hand when love is evident.
I couldn't agree with you more that the basis of parenting is a strong loving relationship with your child. Setting aside many of the issues already raised here, and not making any comment on your brother and sister-in-law's parenting, can we agree that it is possible to be absolutely firm in terms of what one will and will not accept from a child (particularly a young one who doesn't have the independent capacity to walk out the door), and the fortitude to follow through with limit setting if appropriate behaviour isn't present, without it having to involve violence? I have personally found it to be so, but you need to be able to be the one who doesn't blink, metaphorically speaking.
To some degree, yes. But here's the thing... not all people have the capacity to skillfully navigate a course of discipline without having the firm hand in their back pocket.
It's idealistic, but if we are honest with ourselves... unrealistic.
So do the skilled parents (such as yourself) who have managed to be able to spend much more time with their children and have the skill set to nurture in the most gentle fashion sneer at those that offer the same amount of love, yet parent differently than them and to the best of their abilities?
It's my basic position, bottom line position that violence toward others isn't okay, whether they are children or adults. That guides a lot of my behaviour. You may call that sneering at people who don't share this view, but I don't. I do think that any person, parent or not, could choose to make that their bottom line as well and then figure out for themselves how to proceed. After all, each of us who are parents have to figure it all out for ourselves, deciding what opinions to listen to and what to disregard. There is a lot of practical as well as emotional support available out there for those who do decide not to use violence.
It's not a poor position to have overall. I guess I don't feel that swatting your child on the bum is 'violence' (in the typical sense) just as grounding them isn't 'imprisoning' them or taking a treasured item for a duration of time is 'stealing'.
As much as some ideals sound lovely, I'm pragmatic and simply seek to achieve results through the means available to people. If a swat on the butt stops a kid from telling his father to shut up when a battery of other measures have failed... I'm in support. I'm not in favor of having parents scratching their heads and having the kid run over them. What's the kid learning then?
I agree thirtybills, the tone from some in here is incredibly judgemental. There are clearly some perfect parents here who have it all figured out and distilled into a simple black and white scenario.
Hugh, your repeated allusions to battered women IS being overdramatic, and using a false equivalency to prop your drama up.
I will be the first to admit I am not a perfect parent. Far from it. But it is my opinion that physical contact on a child is never an option (which is the topic we are discussing-if the topic was "being a perfect parent"-I wouldn't even be engaging in this discussion). that is my position, and if you feel it is judgemental, then that's how you feel.
it's not a false equivalency at all. it's showing that people have a tendency to understand behaviours they have learned growing up as normal, and if being spanked is ok as long as I'm still getting affection is normal, it's not a big stretch to believe that some, not all, women may develop thinking this is normal for every relationship. I don't claim to have any background in psychology, I just believe this to be possible based on the knowledge I do have of human behaviour.
no drama here, dude. if you are getting defensive about my position, that's your drama, not mine.
You got me. Seclusion? I don't know. This is the whole premise from which I speak from- there is no manual or blue print that is perfect. Every situation is unique to its own. The answers are hard to find sometimes and the challenges can be great.
The technicality you speak of was me clarifying that physical contact was the last effort made by the parent (it should never be the first recourse). In other words, all other interventions had been employed and a parent had nothing else at their disposal. Hence, the sincere 'I don't know'.
my point in asking that question is because your position is "if spanking works, then more power to them". But it doesn't work in many cases. So how far do we go in allowing parents to administer punishment based solely on the "well he stopped his bad behaviour" position.
One is an adult striking another adult. The other is an adult correcting a child.
You know... you really need to consider your approach on this forum. In our previous little spat... you sneered at my comment where I alluded to the authoritative approach you flaunted based on your life experiences. In this thread that you created... As soon as someone offered a different perpsective than yours... You say, "as a 40 year old father, I'm pretty sure I'm a little more qualified knowing what lessons I learned than someone on the internet. But thanks."
You flaunted your opinion based on your personal beliefs and experiences... again.
Maybe you do have things figured out in such a way that you can speak so incredulously towards others. If so, please excuse my simple way.
ah, I see. so if an adult hits an adult, it's "striking". if it's an adult hitting a child, it's "correcting". got it.
they were not offering a different perspective than mine. that was a direct reponse to someone telling me what I learned as a kid, "whether I want to believe it or not". if that isn't incredulously speaking towards me, I don't know what is. how can you defend a comment telling me what I learned as a kid?
I know what I know based on personal experience. if I don't have experience on a subject, I keep my mouth shut on the matter. Not sure how that's a problem.
you are free to ignore me if you wish. no one is forcing you to engage me.
You got me. Seclusion? I don't know. This is the whole premise from which I speak from- there is no manual or blue print that is perfect. Every situation is unique to its own. The answers are hard to find sometimes and the challenges can be great.
The technicality you speak of was me clarifying that physical contact was the last effort made by the parent (it should never be the first recourse). In other words, all other interventions had been employed and a parent had nothing else at their disposal. Hence, the sincere 'I don't know'.
my point in asking that question is because your position is "if spanking works, then more power to them". But it doesn't work in many cases. So how far do we go in allowing parents to administer punishment based solely on the "well he stopped his bad behaviour" position.
From my perspective, the line stops at a spanking.
My definition or idea of a spanking is 2-3 swats on the bum with an open hand.
As I said before, I don't encourage it or employ it... but I understand the potential need for it. Marie Antoinette once said, "Let them eat cake" when advised of the dismal conditions her citizens were living in. To me, saying, "Find a peaceful way to do it" is along the same lines- it sounds great, but it's hardly helpful when a parent is pulling out their hair and have exhausted options to the point they have nothing left.
I answered your question... please answer mine: how long do we allow a child to carry on with extremely poor behaviour when 'peaceful' methods outlined in a Dr. Phil book- or any other gentle suggestions- fail to bring about the necessary change? In other words, failing everything, do we simply allow a child's ill-disposition to simply run its course for reluctance to administer the heavy hand?
Paulonious, if I grant that there is no difference then I would like to extend that logic out a bit and see where it leads... My neighbor has a tendancy to ride his ATV at night which is unsafe and disruptive, and I don't approve. If I take his ATV and lock it in my garage for a few weeks, its no biggie right? Same same? Or is it different because adults have full autonomy and children do not?
Paulonious, if I grant that there is no difference then I would like to extend that logic out a bit and see where it leads... My neighbor has a tendancy to ride his ATV at night which is unsafe and disruptive, and I don't approve. If I take his ATV and lock it in my garage for a few weeks, its no biggie right? Same same? Or is it different because adults have full autonomy and children do not?
that adult is not in your family. if you had an adult child living in your house that did that, then yes, feel free to lock it up. would you spank your neighbour's child if they were misbehaving in front of you? I would suggest you probably would not.
if it is your neighbour, you call the police and lodge a complaint.
From my perspective, the line stops at a spanking.
My definition or idea of a spanking is 2-3 swats on the bum with an open hand.
As I said before, I don't encourage it or employ it... but I understand the potential need for it. Marie Antoinette once said, "Let them eat cake" when advised of the dismal conditions her citizens were living in. To me, saying, "Find a peaceful way to do it" is along the same lines- it sounds great, but it's hardly helpful when a parent is pulling out their hair and have exhausted options to the point they have nothing left.
I answered your question... please answer mine: how long do we allow a child to carry on with extremely poor behaviour when 'peaceful' methods outlined in a Dr. Phil book- or any other gentle suggestions- fail to bring about the necessary change? In other words, failing everything, do we simply allow a child's ill-disposition to simply run its course for reluctance to administer the heavy hand?
we know you don't spank.
if a child is employing poor behaviour, you do what you can without hitting. then counselling. there is a root cause of everything.
Paulonious, if I grant that there is no difference then I would like to extend that logic out a bit and see where it leads... My neighbor has a tendancy to ride his ATV at night which is unsafe and disruptive, and I don't approve. If I take his ATV and lock it in my garage for a few weeks, its no biggie right? Same same? Or is it different because adults have full autonomy and children do not?
also, no one ever said there is no difference. I said it was a slippery slope that could lead to using that same behaviour or being on the receiving end of it without thinking it's a problem in later years. Big difference.
if a child is employing poor behaviour, you do what you can without hitting. then counselling. there is a root cause of everything.
I'm assuming this was in response to the question I posed to you (I think something happened with your quotes).
Your response seems to imply that if all else fails... then counselling is there to solve everything. As I'm sure you already know... this is simply not reality for some. Counselling can be effective, but there are many cases where counselling does very little.
of course counselling isn't fool proof. but in my opinion, a better option than hitting.
I really don't know. a guy I was friends with in high school became very mentally unstable (not violent, just odd behaviour, like stealing from you when it was obvious it was him). I found out later (he claimed after he tried to "friend" me on facebook and I asked him about all the shitty things he did to us all before he moved to the States) that he didn't remember any of it, because he had shock therapy. I don't know if they still use that type of therapy, but my first thought was "bullshit".
Common sense. Actually I doubt such studies have been performed, as the study would be unable to differentiate between causation and correlation. The same as a study that links spanking with mental disorders. The relationship cannot be shown to be causal.
The same as a study that links spanking with mental disorders. The relationship cannot be shown to be causal.
that would be correct:
While the data doesn’t show that spanking causes mental disorders, it does present a statistically significant correlation, said Tracie Afifi, lead author and assistant professor of community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
but you still don't think that it should be avoided?
I think that children with mental issues are obviously more likely to need the sort of advanced correction that would mean spanking to some parents.
"Statistically significant correlation" does not mean what you seem to think it does. It only means that there is a connection between the two, it does not signify what the connection is. It could be evidence that spanking leads to issues, it could be evidence that issues lead to spanking. Given the extremely complicated nature of mental health, it would be more sound to assume the latter than the former, but assumptions of that sort are a waste of time.
I know exactly what it means. like if I happen, statistically, to drink coffee more on rainy days than sunny days. there's a correlation there, but it doesn't necessarily mean that rain causes me to drink coffee, nor that the sun causes me to not drink coffee.
BUT, maybe I drink coffee more on rainy days because it's cooler out. Maybe. Maybe not. But it's probably a safe bet for my wife not to buy me a coffee on a hot day.
how could it be more sound to assume the latter if you admit that very assumption is a waste of time?
I think that children with mental issues are obviously more likely to need the sort of advanced correction that would mean spanking to some parents.
and as to this point, you believe it is ok to smack a kid with mental issues as a way to correct behaviour? if there are mental issues, it is less likely the kid will react in the manner in which you'd expect a child to, and conversely, could make it worse.
I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.
I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.
I don't think it's right or wrong, I just think it debunks the biased studies that seek to demonize corporal punishment. There are lots of ways that parents, schools, family, and life fuck up their kids, spanking seems pretty low on the list to me! And no, that is not irrelevant, if you are going to make it a strict right or wrong issue and judge the quality of parents who use corporal punishment, then it only seems logical and fair to look at the quantity of effect that it has in relation to other choices which you or others deem poor in quality.
and what about the studies that claim corporal punishment has a negilgible effect on people in future years? are those also biased?
yes, there are many ways parents can fuck up. but um, this thread is about spanking, specifically it started about this situation of this father humiliating his tween daughter. not about bad/good parenting in general, as was stated earlier.
Comments
It's my basic position, bottom line position that violence toward others isn't okay, whether they are children or adults. That guides a lot of my behaviour. You may call that sneering at people who don't share this view, but I don't. I do think that any person, parent or not, could choose to make that their bottom line as well and then figure out for themselves how to proceed. After all, each of us who are parents have to figure it all out for ourselves, deciding what opinions to listen to and what to disregard. There is a lot of practical as well as emotional support available out there for those who do decide not to use violence.
We're going to Florida!!!
It's not a poor position to have overall. I guess I don't feel that swatting your child on the bum is 'violence' (in the typical sense) just as grounding them isn't 'imprisoning' them or taking a treasured item for a duration of time is 'stealing'.
As much as some ideals sound lovely, I'm pragmatic and simply seek to achieve results through the means available to people. If a swat on the butt stops a kid from telling his father to shut up when a battery of other measures have failed... I'm in support. I'm not in favor of having parents scratching their heads and having the kid run over them. What's the kid learning then?
I will be the first to admit I am not a perfect parent. Far from it. But it is my opinion that physical contact on a child is never an option (which is the topic we are discussing-if the topic was "being a perfect parent"-I wouldn't even be engaging in this discussion). that is my position, and if you feel it is judgemental, then that's how you feel.
it's not a false equivalency at all. it's showing that people have a tendency to understand behaviours they have learned growing up as normal, and if being spanked is ok as long as I'm still getting affection is normal, it's not a big stretch to believe that some, not all, women may develop thinking this is normal for every relationship. I don't claim to have any background in psychology, I just believe this to be possible based on the knowledge I do have of human behaviour.
no drama here, dude. if you are getting defensive about my position, that's your drama, not mine.
www.headstonesband.com
my point in asking that question is because your position is "if spanking works, then more power to them". But it doesn't work in many cases. So how far do we go in allowing parents to administer punishment based solely on the "well he stopped his bad behaviour" position.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
ah, I see. so if an adult hits an adult, it's "striking". if it's an adult hitting a child, it's "correcting". got it.
they were not offering a different perspective than mine. that was a direct reponse to someone telling me what I learned as a kid, "whether I want to believe it or not". if that isn't incredulously speaking towards me, I don't know what is. how can you defend a comment telling me what I learned as a kid?
I know what I know based on personal experience. if I don't have experience on a subject, I keep my mouth shut on the matter. Not sure how that's a problem.
you are free to ignore me if you wish. no one is forcing you to engage me.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
From my perspective, the line stops at a spanking.
My definition or idea of a spanking is 2-3 swats on the bum with an open hand.
As I said before, I don't encourage it or employ it... but I understand the potential need for it. Marie Antoinette once said, "Let them eat cake" when advised of the dismal conditions her citizens were living in. To me, saying, "Find a peaceful way to do it" is along the same lines- it sounds great, but it's hardly helpful when a parent is pulling out their hair and have exhausted options to the point they have nothing left.
I answered your question... please answer mine: how long do we allow a child to carry on with extremely poor behaviour when 'peaceful' methods outlined in a Dr. Phil book- or any other gentle suggestions- fail to bring about the necessary change? In other words, failing everything, do we simply allow a child's ill-disposition to simply run its course for reluctance to administer the heavy hand?
that adult is not in your family. if you had an adult child living in your house that did that, then yes, feel free to lock it up. would you spank your neighbour's child if they were misbehaving in front of you? I would suggest you probably would not.
if it is your neighbour, you call the police and lodge a complaint.
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
also, no one ever said there is no difference. I said it was a slippery slope that could lead to using that same behaviour or being on the receiving end of it without thinking it's a problem in later years. Big difference.
www.headstonesband.com
if a child is employing poor behaviour, you do what you can without hitting. then counselling. there is a root cause of everything.
www.headstonesband.com
I'm assuming this was in response to the question I posed to you (I think something happened with your quotes).
Your response seems to imply that if all else fails... then counselling is there to solve everything. As I'm sure you already know... this is simply not reality for some. Counselling can be effective, but there are many cases where counselling does very little.
Now what?
I really don't know. a guy I was friends with in high school became very mentally unstable (not violent, just odd behaviour, like stealing from you when it was obvious it was him). I found out later (he claimed after he tried to "friend" me on facebook and I asked him about all the shitty things he did to us all before he moved to the States) that he didn't remember any of it, because he had shock therapy. I don't know if they still use that type of therapy, but my first thought was "bullshit".
www.headstonesband.com
what would make you think that?
www.headstonesband.com
www.headstonesband.com
that would be correct:
While the data doesn’t show that spanking causes mental disorders, it does present a statistically significant correlation, said Tracie Afifi, lead author and assistant professor of community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
but you still don't think that it should be avoided?
www.headstonesband.com
"Statistically significant correlation" does not mean what you seem to think it does. It only means that there is a connection between the two, it does not signify what the connection is. It could be evidence that spanking leads to issues, it could be evidence that issues lead to spanking. Given the extremely complicated nature of mental health, it would be more sound to assume the latter than the former, but assumptions of that sort are a waste of time.
BUT, maybe I drink coffee more on rainy days because it's cooler out. Maybe. Maybe not. But it's probably a safe bet for my wife not to buy me a coffee on a hot day.
how could it be more sound to assume the latter if you admit that very assumption is a waste of time?
www.headstonesband.com
and as to this point, you believe it is ok to smack a kid with mental issues as a way to correct behaviour? if there are mental issues, it is less likely the kid will react in the manner in which you'd expect a child to, and conversely, could make it worse.
www.headstonesband.com
yep i agree
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
and what about the studies that claim corporal punishment has a negilgible effect on people in future years? are those also biased?
yes, there are many ways parents can fuck up. but um, this thread is about spanking, specifically it started about this situation of this father humiliating his tween daughter. not about bad/good parenting in general, as was stated earlier.
www.headstonesband.com