I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?
I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!
But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.
It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him.
Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true. fuck me
Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.
That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.
I don't get where you are going with this at all my friend. I have never heard that argument in favor of evolution presented as you have.
If anything your explanation has given more points in favor of evolution.
I'm not sure how what I said gives points in favor of evolution but I'll take them, thanks! I'm all in favor of evolution!
Not to side-track too much but try this: hit "show previous quotes" above and check out the trippy fading boxes. If we keep responding to previous quotes enough times, eventually the innermost most will be black, possibly even a black hole of knowledge containing the answer to this whole god/evolution/creationism question. Just don't fall down that hole. Ohhhh no!
I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?
I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!
But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.
It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him.
Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true. fuck me
Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.
That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.
I don't get where you are going with this at all my friend. I have never heard that argument in favor of evolution presented as you have.
If anything your explanation has given more points in favor of evolution.
I'm not sure how what I said gives points in favor of evolution but I'll take them, thanks! I'm all in favor of evolution!
Not to side-track too much but try this: hit "show previous quotes" above and check out the trippy fading boxes. If we keep responding to previous quotes enough times, eventually the innermost most will be black, possibly even a black hole of knowledge containing the answer to this whole god/evolution/creationism question. Just don't fall down that hole. Ohhhh no!
I'm in this hole are you?
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?
I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!
But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.
It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him.
Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true. fuck me
Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.
That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.
I don't get where you are going with this at all my friend. I have never heard that argument in favor of evolution presented as you have.
If anything your explanation has given more points in favor of evolution.
I'm not sure how what I said gives points in favor of evolution but I'll take them, thanks! I'm all in favor of evolution!
Not to side-track too much but try this: hit "show previous quotes" above and check out the trippy fading boxes. If we keep responding to previous quotes enough times, eventually the innermost most will be black, possibly even a black hole of knowledge containing the answer to this whole god/evolution/creationism question. Just don't fall down that hole. Ohhhh no!
I understand your sentiments. The question I have is would the people you mentioned above still have the same views and still be good people if religion wasn't a factor? Would Kurt Vonnegut still be an excellent writer if there was no such thing as religion and he wasn't labeled an atheist? Would Wendell Berry still be a pacifist if he wasn't apart of a Christian organization?
I know you wrote that their faith influenced them, but I say they could still be great without the religious overtones.
That's a good question but I'm afraid it's one only Tralfamadorians are likely to be able to answer! Haha!
But the things is that for most if not all of those people, their faith is an integral part of who they are and what they do. And of course there are many great people who have done great and wonderful things who do not profess any particular religion or who are atheists- people from a wide spectrum like Edward Abbey, Henry Rollins, Amy Goodman, Derrick Jensen and on and on. Mix all those good religious and non-religious people together and you have a great bunch of people.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not in a hurry to dismiss people for their faith or lack thereof. As long as a person's faith is a personal belief and not one they claim I must own, I'm good with that.
It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. Yes, there is widespread corruption in police forces and I believe that generally there is a lot of change needing to take place in law enforcement or we'll end up in a police state. But I'm not, as you know, about to call all cops "bad". No way. Same deal with religious people. Religions have done massive amounts of harm and many changes that way would be great but that doesn't make all people of faith bad or harmful.
No one is dismissing anyone for their faith or lack thereof. The unfaithful seem to know what is going on that's all.
I agree that there are a lot of aspects of all faiths that seem really far fetched to me which is why I don't follow any religion. But do you really believe that because they don't follow a faith, the unfaithful know what's going on? What, like all of them? And you don't think there are people of faith who know what's going on? That's interesting. I'll have to take that up with Mr. Berry next time I see him.
Well, If God doesn't exist, then yes, the atheists pretty much know what's going on (as far as science has allowed us so far, anyway), and the religious seriously don't - they're way the fuck off. If God does exist, then religious people still don't know Wtf is going on, since they still couldn't know the true nature of God, but they'd know a lot more than the Atheists.
Is it really about who knew more? I wonder if somehow it could be proven there was a god, how many atheists would convert? I have always said show me evidence and I'll drop to my knees where a stand. Then again, having concrete evidence would take away the number one thing religious people rely on- faith.
It would be fucking scary to know that this thing called god is real and all that he is done is true. fuck me
Well that's the thing, right?? If i found out God actually existed - if somehow proof was revealed - I would hate his fucking guts. I never understood why people love that guy so much... and the worse he is to people, the more they seem to love him. It's the definition of insanity.
God would probably have an explanation that would be so far different than anything any religion has ever come up with as to render them completely obsolete. Maybe God is waiting for humans to evolve to the point of being able to understand the meaning of that explanation.
That, by the way, is a classic argument in favor of evolution.
I don't get where you are going with this at all my friend. I have never heard that argument in favor of evolution presented as you have.
If anything your explanation has given more points in favor of evolution.
I'm not sure how what I said gives points in favor of evolution but I'll take them, thanks! I'm all in favor of evolution!
Not to side-track too much but try this: hit "show previous quotes" above and check out the trippy fading boxes. If we keep responding to previous quotes enough times, eventually the innermost most will be black, possibly even a black hole of knowledge containing the answer to this whole god/evolution/creationism question. Just don't fall down that hole. Ohhhh no!
I believe that I've mentioned before that the founder of the Creation Museum was also building a Noah's Ark theme park. Apparently there were enough questions about the separation of church and state involved in granting tax incentives that the state withdrew their offer.
I believe that I've mentioned before that the founder of the Creation Museum was also building a Noah's Ark theme park. Apparently there were enough questions about the separation of church and state involved in granting tax incentives that the state withdrew their offer.
so yesterday a jehovah's witness rocked up to my door determined to show me the error of my atheistic ways even after I identified myself as an atheist and told him he was wasting his time. I must have been in a weird mood(it was a weird day here in Sydney) cause I actually listened to what he had to say knowing he was in fact wasting his time. knowing that to me creationism isn't logical and regardless of any argument or 'fact' as he liked to call them he came up with wasn't going to sway me in the least. he was taken aback when I pointed out that the words he was showing me in his book weren't the same words that I had read in my bible(in genesis). he wanted me to show him the non matching passages. unfortunately it was near school home time and I was needed elsewhere.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I believe that I've mentioned before that the founder of the Creation Museum was also building a Noah's Ark theme park. Apparently there were enough questions about the separation of church and state involved in granting tax incentives that the state withdrew their offer.
I believe that I've mentioned before that the founder of the Creation Museum was also building a Noah's Ark theme park. Apparently there were enough questions about the separation of church and state involved in granting tax incentives that the state withdrew their offer.
Praying doesn't work. There are no miracles. God is not just and Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Just putting these thoughts down on board gets very emotional responses, but why? It's okay to strongly challenge these beliefs and I feel humanity will be better once we get past need to believe in these tall tales.
the ultimate irony: man will only be truly a peaceful species when he evolves past the belief in a supreme being.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I don't believe in god, but I believe in love. So IMO everything was created out of the will of love , the Big Bang created everything we see about 13.7 million years ago with our sun being born around 5 million years ago. Clouds collapse , forcing hydrogen and dust together in ever denser clumps ..stars...this is happening right now and to me that is going forever forward so is 'evolution' . Native people were in awe of the sun, not worshipping it, but with what was behind it, it's a discussion that will forever go round in circles , no one will agree. But something created this, what was before the Big Bang ?! It couldn't have been nothing, what was it! , everything is infinite even love. Right I'm confused now!! Goodnight........
Greeted by Jesus doesn't make much sense, and thrown into darkness means you live on in emptiness? I don't find the question to be relevant, afterlife is just a fantasy that makes some sleep better at night. When your brain ceases, you cease. It's really pretty simple.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
Greeted by Jesus doesn't make much sense, and thrown into darkness means you live on in emptiness? I don't find the question to be relevant, afterlife is just a fantasy that makes some sleep better at night. When your brain ceases, you cease. It's really pretty simple.
I think that's pretty much true, rgambs, on the other hand, in his book World Without Us, Alan Weisman talks about how our thoughts are electrical impulses (I used to know the whole physiological process involving neurons, synapses, acetylcholine and all that) that emanate our from our bodies into space and that if it is true space is curved, then eventually some of our energy returns home. So maybe that little form of reincarnation is the closest thing to an after life.
I'm still going with door #3 myself. The Mystery Door.
I definitely think we leave an imprint on the universe. At the very least, we have subtle gravitational, chemical, and electromagnetic effects that will reverberate until the energy and matter which comprise the universe is stretched so far apart that it is effectively gone (though nothingb is ever gone entirely, it will cease to have cause and effect). Then of course there is the huge effect we have on each other that keeps a peice of you resonating at least until humans are gone. What I can't believe, as much as I would like, is that we can live on in any meaningful way beyond the complete death of the brain. Our memories comprise so much of who we are, and there is no way they survive death.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
I definitely think we leave an imprint on the universe. At the very least, we have subtle gravitational, chemical, and electromagnetic effects that will reverberate until the energy and matter which comprise the universe is stretched so far apart that it is effectively gone (though nothingb is ever gone entirely, it will cease to have cause and effect). Then of course there is the huge effect we have on each other that keeps a peice of you resonating at least until humans are gone. What I can't believe, as much as I would like, is that we can live on in any meaningful way beyond the complete death of the brain. Our memories comprise so much of who we are, and there is no way they survive death.
A good reason why making our lives count and learning and experiencing something meaningful everyday is such a good idea.
do the train members wonder what they will find after death ? will you be greeted by Jesus or just be thrown into darkness ?
Godfather.
I'm pretty sure the only thing that will happen after my death is my family and friends will raise a glass and maybe shed a tear and hopefully share a laugh. Beyond that: nothing.
I was thinking about this the other day.....why do christians believe that their belief is correct, when christianity was only invented 2000 years ago? don't you think god would have enlightened someone, anyone, and had and sacrificed his kid, at SOME point earlier than that? if god created everything, why did he wait so fucking long?
every religion has been man made, and all of them have eventually gone by the way side. every single one of them. christianity and buddism and everything else will fall victim to the same thing that Egypt's Ra and Greece's Zeus did. eventually people will come to their senses, and then some other group of people will create a new supreme being in order to control the masses.
I respect everyone's right to believe however they believe, however, I just can't wrap my head around why anyone would believe in anything beyond what we know. all logic tells us man has made up religions upteen times in the past and not one of them has panned out as "the" one. why would a relatively young religion such as christianity be "it", especially when it's so overly documented how much of that religion's stories and traditions have been lifted from other religions?
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
I've felt for a long while now that living on in the hearts, minds, and DNA of my loved ones is all that matters. What happens to my spirit or soul or electrical impulses is another adventure, maybe, possibly, or maybe not at all. The not knowing has been liberating in some ways.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I've felt for a long while now that living on in the hearts, minds, and DNA of my loved ones is all that matters. What happens to my spirit or soul or electrical impulses is another adventure, maybe, possibly, or maybe not at all. The not knowing has been liberating in some ways.
Amen to this!
And, I've no problem with GF asking questions as we all do. Maybe afterlife ties into one view or another from his side. I have no answers, but to wonder, inquire, etc. - OK by me ;-)
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,011
Comments
Not to side-track too much but try this: hit "show previous quotes" above and check out the trippy fading boxes. If we keep responding to previous quotes enough times, eventually the innermost most will be black, possibly even a black hole of knowledge containing the answer to this whole god/evolution/creationism question. Just don't fall down that hole. Ohhhh no!
npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/11/370155783/kentucky-says-noahs-ark-theme-park-wont-get-tax-breaks
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/reservoir-under-canadian-shield-may-be-half-as-old-as-earth-itself/article11938571/#
the ultimate irony: man will only be truly a peaceful species when he evolves past the belief in a supreme being.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/super-earth-confirmed-by-ubc-astronomer-using-most-space-telescope-1.2879252
Godfather.
Are you being sarcastic?
Neither, Godfather. I'm going with door #3.
I think that's pretty much true, rgambs, on the other hand, in his book World Without Us, Alan Weisman talks about how our thoughts are electrical impulses (I used to know the whole physiological process involving neurons, synapses, acetylcholine and all that) that emanate our from our bodies into space and that if it is true space is curved, then eventually some of our energy returns home. So maybe that little form of reincarnation is the closest thing to an after life.
I'm still going with door #3 myself. The Mystery Door.
A good reason why making our lives count and learning and experiencing something meaningful everyday is such a good idea.
I'm pretty sure the only thing that will happen after my death is my family and friends will raise a glass and maybe shed a tear and hopefully share a laugh. Beyond that: nothing.
I was thinking about this the other day.....why do christians believe that their belief is correct, when christianity was only invented 2000 years ago? don't you think god would have enlightened someone, anyone, and had and sacrificed his kid, at SOME point earlier than that? if god created everything, why did he wait so fucking long?
every religion has been man made, and all of them have eventually gone by the way side. every single one of them. christianity and buddism and everything else will fall victim to the same thing that Egypt's Ra and Greece's Zeus did. eventually people will come to their senses, and then some other group of people will create a new supreme being in order to control the masses.
I respect everyone's right to believe however they believe, however, I just can't wrap my head around why anyone would believe in anything beyond what we know. all logic tells us man has made up religions upteen times in the past and not one of them has panned out as "the" one. why would a relatively young religion such as christianity be "it", especially when it's so overly documented how much of that religion's stories and traditions have been lifted from other religions?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Why do you ask such a loaded question during a big debate like this?
What is your answer to the question you just posted?
I'm not sure if it is a loaded question or not but I do wonder how it fits into a discussion on evolution/creation.
Wasn't there an "is there a heaven or hell?" or an "is there an afterlife" thread here at one time?
.
And, I've no problem with GF asking questions as we all do. Maybe afterlife ties into one view or another from his side. I have no answers, but to wonder, inquire, etc. - OK by me ;-)
Now come on, PJFan. You know these kinds of threads evolve!
:-))
(sorry, couldn't resist that. ;-) )