Imaginary threat

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  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    blueandwhite said:

    Don't take my comment the wrong way; I'm not suggesting that all Americans comprise a single hive mind or that all Americans are gun-toting, would-be heroes. I'm simply suggesting that this is a very American topic. While some Americans may disagree with America's gun culture, it is definitely something that is what I would consider unique to the United States. Gun rights are featured prominently in your constitution and seem to be of paramount importance to a large portion of your society. As i said before, you don't really hear many Canadians talking about their right to bear arms. It simply isn't a prominent element in our society (whether we agree or disagree with the concept). Whether you are for or against an unrestricted access to firearms, this is a topic that is far more relevant to you as an American than it is to people in many other parts of the world.

    As for "stand your ground", I always think of Tom Petty when I hear this phrase because it goes hand in hand with "I won't back down". I don't think you will find many (if any) jurisdictions where self defence or acting in defence of a loved one is a crime. Having said that, in Canada we would never have the right to confront a person on the street or provoke somebody leading to a potentially dangerous situation. Our courts apply a standard of "reasonable and necessary" force which effectively means that the amount of force one may apply in defence of one's self is directly proportional to the threat they face. Put it this way; somebody like Zimmerman wouldn't have a leg to stand on in a Canadian court because in Canada he wouldn't have the right to follow and confront someone.

    Our constitution has an amendment, one. So not like it made this a prominent topic.

    When reading sensationalist US news and coming to this board can see a non US person thinking we walk around thinking about guns. All the time. Well my guess is 20% have that hard on for guns. They are paranoid about crime and the government. The rest go about their daily lives not thinking about guns. Course reading sensationalist news and these boards can understand how this may seem different.

    And Zimmerman should be behind bars. Our justice system is flawed at times.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    rr165892 said:

    rgambs said:

    JimmyV said:

    It is very human to want to protect those you love. There is nothing distinctly American about that concept.

    Very human indeed, but to remove flight from the "fight or flight" response ignores both biological imperative and common sense.
    chadwick said:

    grandpa (dad's dad a WWII army vet who fought on pacific islands) & our dad (a navy veitnam vet up to his eyeballs in all sorts of bullshit) raised us three boys like you are describing: surrounded by farms, countryside & timber & outdoors living. it is a natural part of rural life, yes. we even had a outhouse in case the well went dry or were outback messin around & you'd just step in the outhouse all good & muddy vs' trackin mud & shit & trigs into the house

    i'm the oldest & i was given a bb gun when i was in 1st grade & it was no toy. as in no shooting each other, no eyeballs being blown out, it was serious business or it'd be on. by 3rd grade i was given a 20 gauge single shot shotgun. it takes years to teach & to learn how to handle a gun safely. practice practice practice. & you good people out there do not for one second believe that grandpa & dad had me stompin around the woods & fields w/ a loaded shotgun when im in 3rd grade. that would be naive of someone to think that is how we rolled.

    as we know already 87% - 90% of the folks on here are against guns in any way shape or form. well they most probably grew up & had a family that did not own guns or needed guns or what have you.

    i like southern country folks. pretty real & they'll survive

    guns weren't a big fucking deal to get erect over & make a mess in your jeans. they were around, lots of them & it was like having a pepsi 8 pack of bottles sitting in a snow drift outside the door next to the woodpile. it was just that simple

    I grew up in the country, in backcountry hills the likes of which Florida and Iowa can't compare to. I am OK with guns as far as the country narrative goes, but the country narrative doesn't include badass handguns and tactically appointed rifles. Those are the purview of the gun-obsessed, and are part of an entirely different equation. Nobody is trying to over-regulate tube loading 22's, bolt action thirty oughts, or pump action shotguns.
    I wanted to ask you Gambs.Do you carry when in the deep back woods on a 3 day adventure in Appalachia Banjo country?? I've seen some sketchy individuals come rolling out of those woods.
    I do carry bear spray and a knife, contrary to what many would believe, bear spray is VERY MUCH more effective against bears than even large caliber firearms...there has yet to be a fatal attack on a person who properly used bear spray, but gun carriers often shoot the bear, get mauled and then they bleed out together in a sad, poetic death.
    As far as hillbillies, they don't scare me one bit. For one, I outbeard 90% of them, and two, I have experienced backwoods folk to be among the kindest and most giving segment of Americans...given you treat them with respect and not poke fun at their appearance or way of life. Honestly though, in more than a dozen true wilderness rambles I have not come across any real backwoods folk out there, they all live closer to town nowadays where they have access to cigarettes and booze. The 'shiners and pot farmers aren't in the prime wilderness areas, I mostly find liberal tree huggers like myself out there.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    rr165892 said:

    hedonist said:

    I'm just an American. Not part of "you Americans". Many different people in that lumping, blue.

    Curious if "stand your ground" is about self-protection and all it encompasses, or about how one goes about it?

    My or my husband's life on the line, I'd use whatever I could to preserve either and both - even if not armed in the traditional (ie, gun) sense.

    We don't own one but we have a rather large knife, a mini-sword and various heavy objects. Not sure how using any of those to keep ourselves safe could be criticized. Or, any other (ad hoc) weapon, fingernails, teeth, knees, feet, carkeys, pepper spray, voice...and firearm.

    Not like we're wearing chaps and looking for a high-noon showdown!

    Hedo
    I think you and your Hubby are missing out on a new opportunity in self protection.You already have the sword and the moxy,now go ahead and both of you throw on some chaps(village people style please!) And stroll around with the heavy objects and the sword yelling at people,while bearing your teeth like Hannibal Lector.I can guarantee no one will mess with you and I'm pretty sure in SoCal you probably won't get a second look.Shit,no gun needed.lol
    Ha! You're correct - we'd probably blend in looking and acting like that.

    blue, thanks for clarifying. I guess its prominence is due to our history, and unfortunately the fanatics and the irresponsible take the spotlight vs those who take having or carrying a weapon very seriously.

    I'd rather be able to walk away rather than provoke or exacerbate a situation. Most folks would too, I believe.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    rgambs said:

    rr165892 said:

    rgambs said:

    JimmyV said:

    It is very human to want to protect those you love. There is nothing distinctly American about that concept.

    Very human indeed, but to remove flight from the "fight or flight" response ignores both biological imperative and common sense.
    chadwick said:

    grandpa (dad's dad a WWII army vet who fought on pacific islands) & our dad (a navy veitnam vet up to his eyeballs in all sorts of bullshit) raised us three boys like you are describing: surrounded by farms, countryside & timber & outdoors living. it is a natural part of rural life, yes. we even had a outhouse in case the well went dry or were outback messin around & you'd just step in the outhouse all good & muddy vs' trackin mud & shit & trigs into the house

    i'm the oldest & i was given a bb gun when i was in 1st grade & it was no toy. as in no shooting each other, no eyeballs being blown out, it was serious business or it'd be on. by 3rd grade i was given a 20 gauge single shot shotgun. it takes years to teach & to learn how to handle a gun safely. practice practice practice. & you good people out there do not for one second believe that grandpa & dad had me stompin around the woods & fields w/ a loaded shotgun when im in 3rd grade. that would be naive of someone to think that is how we rolled.

    as we know already 87% - 90% of the folks on here are against guns in any way shape or form. well they most probably grew up & had a family that did not own guns or needed guns or what have you.

    i like southern country folks. pretty real & they'll survive

    guns weren't a big fucking deal to get erect over & make a mess in your jeans. they were around, lots of them & it was like having a pepsi 8 pack of bottles sitting in a snow drift outside the door next to the woodpile. it was just that simple

    I grew up in the country, in backcountry hills the likes of which Florida and Iowa can't compare to. I am OK with guns as far as the country narrative goes, but the country narrative doesn't include badass handguns and tactically appointed rifles. Those are the purview of the gun-obsessed, and are part of an entirely different equation. Nobody is trying to over-regulate tube loading 22's, bolt action thirty oughts, or pump action shotguns.
    I wanted to ask you Gambs.Do you carry when in the deep back woods on a 3 day adventure in Appalachia Banjo country?? I've seen some sketchy individuals come rolling out of those woods.
    I do carry bear spray and a knife, contrary to what many would believe, bear spray is VERY MUCH more effective against bears than even large caliber firearms...there has yet to be a fatal attack on a person who properly used bear spray, but gun carriers often shoot the bear, get mauled and then they bleed out together in a sad, poetic death.
    As far as hillbillies, they don't scare me one bit. For one, I outbeard 90% of them, and two, I have experienced backwoods folk to be among the kindest and most giving segment of Americans...given you treat them with respect and not poke fun at their appearance or way of life. Honestly though, in more than a dozen true wilderness rambles I have not come across any real backwoods folk out there, they all live closer to town nowadays where they have access to cigarettes and booze. The 'shiners and pot farmers aren't in the prime wilderness areas, I mostly find liberal tree huggers like myself out there.
    I love your use of the term "outbeard". So excellent!
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    i would like to crawl under my desk here, become a few inches in size & sleep but i can't because im on here w/ terrible gas pains
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    My bearding skill is perhaps my greatest natural aptitude :-)
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited September 2014
    guns are dangerous. gun nuts freak me out a bit. im no gun nut but i know a few really well & they're on another level.

    something we talked about many years ago & i been thinking about it lately is this... these thugs, these idiots doing drive by shooting & whatnot aren't even good shots, yes i know it doesn't matter as they just keep firing until they hit someone, a mowing down scene or they miss altogether & take off or their drunk bullets hit innocent citizens who aren't even doing thug life.

    these shitheads i'm surprised can even load their guns. where do they go to target practice? who taught them about gun safety? NOBODY! these folks are fucking dumb as shit

    ............................
    part II

    14 thugs can rob me, my house, steal my car & burn my shit down & i'd never shoot a single one of them. i am very sure i know when my life would be in danger & when life is just a kick in the balls & you may punch a fucker in the face

    hedonist,
    i have a couple boxes & photo albums fulla pictures. if i ever get duplicates or scan & email (or whatever it's called) i'll send you some pictures of my young skinny ass decked out in iowa country boy attire. plz don't hold your breath as it'll take me awhile but i think it can happen if you want
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    hedonist said:

    rr165892 said:

    hedonist said:

    I'm just an American. Not part of "you Americans". Many different people in that lumping, blue.

    Curious if "stand your ground" is about self-protection and all it encompasses, or about how one goes about it?

    My or my husband's life on the line, I'd use whatever I could to preserve either and both - even if not armed in the traditional (ie, gun) sense.

    We don't own one but we have a rather large knife, a mini-sword and various heavy objects. Not sure how using any of those to keep ourselves safe could be criticized. Or, any other (ad hoc) weapon, fingernails, teeth, knees, feet, carkeys, pepper spray, voice...and firearm.

    Not like we're wearing chaps and looking for a high-noon showdown!

    Hedo
    I think you and your Hubby are missing out on a new opportunity in self protection.You already have the sword and the moxy,now go ahead and both of you throw on some chaps(village people style please!) And stroll around with the heavy objects and the sword yelling at people,while bearing your teeth like Hannibal Lector.I can guarantee no one will mess with you and I'm pretty sure in SoCal you probably won't get a second look.Shit,no gun needed.lol
    Ha! You're correct - we'd probably blend in looking and acting like that.

    blue, thanks for clarifying. I guess its prominence is due to our history, and unfortunately the fanatics and the irresponsible take the spotlight vs those who take having or carrying a weapon very seriously.

    I'd rather be able to walk away rather than provoke or exacerbate a situation. Most folks would too, I believe.
    noooo not in so.cal. but NOR.CAL. yeah for sure.

    Godfather.

  • Stickman12
    Stickman12 Posts: 504
    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Godfather. said:


    noooo not in so.cal. but NOR.CAL. yeah for sure.

    Godfather.

    Ooooh yes, in So. Cal! I live in West Hollywood, remember?

    chadwick... :)>-
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    CM189191 said:

    rgambs said:

    Very human indeed, but to remove flight from the "fight or flight" response ignores both biological imperative and common sense.

    Ditto this....I'm not anti-gun: defend your castle.

    Grandpa was a vet, Great-Uncle was a vet, Great-Grandparents fled Nazi Germany. We can turn this into a pissing contest and talk about how I've been raised with everything from slingshots to shotguns, and shot everything in between. From BB to paintball, Derringers & Saturday Night Specials. 22s, 35s, 9mm, 357 Magnums, AK-47s, Kalashnikovs, Tommy Guns and weeeeee! I've shot 'em all. I'm the first to admit, guns are fun as hell.

    But I'm also painfully aware of the damage guns can do in the wrong hands; whether it's reckless citizens, former co-workers people with a bone to pick, militias with soldier of fortune fantasies, lone wolves, angry morons or organized , fascists.

    I'm not anti-regulation either. Shoot first, ask questions later does not make sense. Stand your ground is a disgrace to modern civilized society. To conceal/carry on a daily basis is completely unnecessary for the majority of the population. As with everything, there needs to be a balance. Right now, American society's relationship with guns is totally out of balance. It's creating more problems than it's solving.

    How do you address this?
    Bump
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    blueandwhite said:

    Don't take my comment the wrong way; I'm not suggesting that all Americans comprise a single hive mind or that all Americans are gun-toting, would-be heroes. I'm simply suggesting that this is a very American topic. While some Americans may disagree with America's gun culture, it is definitely something that is what I would consider unique to the United States. Gun rights are featured prominently in your constitution and seem to be of paramount importance to a large portion of your society. As i said before, you don't really hear many Canadians talking about their right to bear arms. It simply isn't a prominent element in our society (whether we agree or disagree with the concept). Whether you are for or against an unrestricted access to firearms, this is a topic that is far more relevant to you as an American than it is to people in many other parts of the world.

    As for "stand your ground", I always think of Tom Petty when I hear this phrase because it goes hand in hand with "I won't back down". I don't think you will find many (if any) jurisdictions where self defence or acting in defence of a loved one is a crime. Having said that, in Canada we would never have the right to confront a person on the street or provoke somebody leading to a potentially dangerous situation. Our courts apply a standard of "reasonable and necessary" force which effectively means that the amount of force one may apply in defence of one's self is directly proportional to the threat they face. Put it this way; somebody like Zimmerman wouldn't have a leg to stand on in a Canadian court because in Canada he wouldn't have the right to follow and confront someone.

    Zimmerman would have been convicted if the ambitious prosecutor didn't try to pull a Casey Anthony and go for the home run with Murder 1.A lesser charge of murder 2 or neg homicide woulda got a guilty conviction.Hope these over zealous DAs learn from those 2 cases.

    And Gambs"out bearded " nice work with that one.
  • Stickman12
    Stickman12 Posts: 504
    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    ejleonjr said:

    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
    The data that shows a correlation between gun ownership and likelihood of gun victimization is evident in those same newspaper articles. You are only proving the point.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Stickman12
    Stickman12 Posts: 504
    rgambs said:

    ejleonjr said:

    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
    The data that shows a correlation between gun ownership and likelihood of gun victimization is evident in those same newspaper articles. You are only proving the point.
    Maybe I am missing something. But thats like saying swimming in water increases the likelihood of drowning, while someone else says that swimming is exercise and increases the likelihood of good health.
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    ejleonjr said:

    rgambs said:

    ejleonjr said:

    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
    The data that shows a correlation between gun ownership and likelihood of gun victimization is evident in those same newspaper articles. You are only proving the point.
    Maybe I am missing something. But thats like saying swimming in water increases the likelihood of drowning, while someone else says that swimming is exercise and increases the likelihood of good health.
    I suppose the difference is that your swimming doesn't affect my safety. Your carrying a gun, however, does. And again, there is evidence to that effect that shows a very clear linear relationship between number of guns within a population and number of gun related fatalities within the population.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    ejleonjr said:

    rgambs said:

    ejleonjr said:

    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
    The data that shows a correlation between gun ownership and likelihood of gun victimization is evident in those same newspaper articles. You are only proving the point.
    Maybe I am missing something. But thats like saying swimming in water increases the likelihood of drowning, while someone else says that swimming is exercise and increases the likelihood of good health.
    You need to work on your analogies.

    Swimming in water does increase the likelihood of drowning.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    edited September 2014
    benjs said:

    ejleonjr said:

    rgambs said:

    ejleonjr said:

    dignin said:

    ejleonjr said:

    callen said:

    ejleonjr said:

    Paranoid or not, you should conceal carry. Better safe than sorry.

    No your just putting yourself and those around you at greater risk of being injured by gun. And what a pain in the butt to have to walk around with it.
    I respectfully disagree. To carry is really no different physically than carrying your wallet. As far as being in greater risk of being injured by a gun. There is factual legitimacy to that statement but you can also factually say that without concealed carry, you and those around you run a greater risk of being victimized.
    You have any data to back up that claim?

    Yes refer to your local newspaper, national newspaper, or world news. Anyone who has been robbed or a victim of a crime who did not have a concealed weapon. If you are looking for a specific study with the specific words that are discussed here, I am not searching for that info.
    The data that shows a correlation between gun ownership and likelihood of gun victimization is evident in those same newspaper articles. You are only proving the point.
    Maybe I am missing something. But thats like saying swimming in water increases the likelihood of drowning, while someone else says that swimming is exercise and increases the likelihood of good health.
    I suppose the difference is that your swimming doesn't affect my safety. Your carrying a gun, however, does. And again, there is evidence to that effect that shows a very clear linear relationship between number of guns within a population and number of gun related fatalities within the population.
    Ben you can twist this to meet every point of view.If you are victim of a crime at the hands of a knife wielding fuck tard and a good citizen who happens to be carrying a hand gun come comes to your aid by scaring away or confronting the attacker,you could say it has affected your safety but for the better.

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