The Death Penalty

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  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    callen said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    What do you do with the guy described above?

    Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
    And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."

    And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.

    Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
    Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.
    But that's a jump, callen. Robbery and theft are nowhere near the atrocities visited upon some.

    I think most of us agree on this, at the very least...?
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    hedonist said:

    callen said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    rgambs said:

    unsung said:

    What do you do with the guy described above?

    Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.
    And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."

    And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.

    Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.
    Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.
    But that's a jump, callen. Robbery and theft are nowhere near the atrocities visited upon some.

    I think most of us agree on this, at the very least...?
    Right and the point being victims should have no input including in more egregious crimes.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,668
    edited September 2014
    hedonist said:

    Well...I hope you'll accept or at least seriously consider that those, or the majority of those, who say they support it DO, and not just "think they do".

    Oooohhhh. I now see what you're saying, lol. Wasn't even sure what you were getting at (i am sick and fuzzy). What I meant was that some families of victims supported the death penalty being used on the criminal who hurt their family, but then said after the execution that it didn't help them at all, and some have even claimed to regret that it happened. So they thought they wanted the person executed, but realized they were wrong after the fact. Just going off of some testimonials that I've read.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    No worries - and I hope you feel better :)
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    edited September 2014
    callen said:

    chadwick said:

    in my opinion it is not exactly vengeance, it's deeper than that. there could be a slight bit of vengeance but it's about taking out the trash more than anything. as good people we have to protect our own. as good people we will be taken into the horrors of sick little shits who throughly enjoy wreaking havoc on the small, the innocent & the vulnerable & sometimes these nasty shits take out those who are not the small, the not so innocent & the not so vulnerable.

    i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit

    Chad, You are so good with words and their meanings. Yet on last few pages you write strong words clearly driven with rage and revenge. Do you not see your hate and possible irrational position supporting execution? Don't mean to be so personal but know you are strong and may reflect.

    I'm not weak on criminals and hope all those that cause crimes get punished severely for their actions but won't do as they have done.

    Lock them up. Give them minimal creature comforts to minimize costs.
    my rage is as calm as a new born robin on a sunny day. those cracked open turquoise eggs, a pretty color lying on the grass beneath the tree, some shell pieces still in the nest. this is how my rage is... quite calm & pleasant. no shouting, no screaming, no nothing but a bowl of grapes & a banana

    irrational is allowing a sickness to breathe.

    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Little George Stinney finally exonerated, whatever the fu(k good that does him now.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    the death penalty.....still ? really ? people get a death sentance everyday ! , the cure or none cure for cancer has become a multi billion dollar business annually, water ..our most abundant resource has become a bottled luxaury (brilliant business move), the US allowes people to come to our country illegally costing tax payers billions a year,corp.America is out sourcing thousands of jobs to other countries putting thousands of Americans on the streets or forcing them to barley survive, NAFTA- FAST-TRAC...global economy my ass..we send our products to 3rd world countries to be reproduced at a lower cost while undermining those countries working calsses and American working class, the real killer of this country is good old fasion greed and there is no death sentance for that and let's not forget the IRS....the biggest group of killers known to the US since smallpox and they get bonuses for all the lives they've shattered.

    o.k. that was my saturday morning too much coffee rant for the week-end hahhahhahhahaha

    Godfather.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    GF, board can be good to let of bit of frustrations.

    Doesn't though mean your correct in your opinion.

    Have a great day.

    The Callen.


    :D
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    And... it doesn't necessarily mean you're not correct either, Godfather.

    Both of you guys have good days!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    Godfather. wrote: »
    the death penalty.....still ? really ? people get a death sentance everyday ! , the cure or none cure for cancer has become a multi billion dollar business annually, water ..our most abundant resource has become a bottled luxaury (brilliant business move), the US allowes people to come to our country illegally costing tax payers billions a year,corp.America is out sourcing thousands of jobs to other countries putting thousands of Americans on the streets or forcing them to barley survive, NAFTA- FAST-TRAC...global economy my ass..we send our products to 3rd world countries to be reproduced at a lower cost while undermining those countries working calsses and American working class, the real killer of this country is good old fasion greed and there is no death sentance for that and let's not forget the IRS....the biggest group of killers known to the US since smallpox and they get bonuses for all the lives they've shattered.

    o.k. that was my saturday morning too much coffee rant for the week-end hahhahhahhahaha

    Godfather.

    I would think that the guarantee to not be killed by the government that you criticize so often would be pretty important to you.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    so tell me what is the purpose of the DP:
    1) protecting society
    2) giving closure to those affected
    3) protecting other inmates
    4) the FALSE notion that it saves money
    5) punishment
    6) all of the above


    and I'll tell you why not:
    1) easy: jail. escape? an extreme anomaly. you watch too many movies. it's more likely that an innocent man will be put to death than a murderer will escape and kill again.
    2) how could anyone, anywhere, EVER, feel that it is in society's best interests to kill a human being for the comfort of another? seriously, think about that for a second.
    3) then you'd have to put to death about every non-white-collar criminal behind bars
    4) giving people due process for the assurances the DP requires costs MORE than just keeping someone in jail for their entire life. FACT.
    5) I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: how could ending someone's suffering in jail be a bigger punishment than letting them rot in there for the rest of their life? (and if you really believe that inmates in max security have it easy-you have never been there-it's a living hell)
    6) all of the above
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    The government is not killing people by exercising the death penalty. That is the same thing as saying the government is kidnapping people when they are imprisoning them.

    Every time I sit and think about some guy being executed... I do think of the overwhelming rush of human emotion each murderer must feel. It has to be an utterly terrifying experience.

    But just as I feel a pang of sympathy for characters like serial murderers or people who have killed children... I remind myself of the terror their victims felt- which would be infinitely greater in my mind. I also remind myself of the sadistic pleasure they derived from their heinous acts- and what I feel is the natural or obvious consequences for indulging themselves as they did.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    paulonious wrote: »
    so tell me what is the purpose of the DP:
    1) protecting society
    2) giving closure to those affected
    3) protecting other inmates
    4) the FALSE notion that it saves money
    5) punishment
    6) all of the above


    and I'll tell you why not:
    1) easy: jail. escape? an extreme anomaly. you watch too many movies. it's more likely that an innocent man will be put to death than a murderer will escape and kill again.
    2) how could anyone, anywhere, EVER, feel that it is in society's best interests to kill a human being for the comfort of another? seriously, think about that for a second.
    3) then you'd have to put to death about every non-white-collar criminal behind bars
    4) giving people due process for the assurances the DP requires costs MORE than just keeping someone in jail for their entire life. FACT.
    5) I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: how could ending someone's suffering in jail be a bigger punishment than letting them rot in there for the rest of their life? (and if you really believe that inmates in max security have it easy-you have never been there-it's a living hell)
    6) all of the above

    Tell point number 2 to the grieving parents of murdered children.

    And how about the painfully simple concept of letting the punishment fit the crime?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    so tell me what is the purpose of the DP:
    1) protecting society
    2) giving closure to those affected
    3) protecting other inmates
    4) the FALSE notion that it saves money
    5) punishment
    6) all of the above


    and I'll tell you why not:
    1) easy: jail. escape? an extreme anomaly. you watch too many movies. it's more likely that an innocent man will be put to death than a murderer will escape and kill again.
    2) how could anyone, anywhere, EVER, feel that it is in society's best interests to kill a human being for the comfort of another? seriously, think about that for a second.
    3) then you'd have to put to death about every non-white-collar criminal behind bars
    4) giving people due process for the assurances the DP requires costs MORE than just keeping someone in jail for their entire life. FACT.
    5) I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: how could ending someone's suffering in jail be a bigger punishment than letting them rot in there for the rest of their life? (and if you really believe that inmates in max security have it easy-you have never been there-it's a living hell)
    6) all of the above

    Tell point number 2 to the grieving parents of murdered children.

    And how about the painfully simple concept of letting the punishment fit the crime?
    I had hoped we had moved beyond the "eye for an eye" concept to something that fits a bit better with the society we aspire to have.

    And as for point #2, those grieving parents know that an execution of one individual does not in any way assuage their loss. The concept of "closure", especially in these circumstances, is a load of bollocks. Victims of crime do want to see justice done, and justice can be done with good investigative police work, appropriate prosecution, a fair trial, and imprisonment for those found guilty. Execution doesn't add to justice, it takes away from it.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    oftenreading wrote: »
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    so tell me what is the purpose of the DP:
    1) protecting society
    2) giving closure to those affected
    3) protecting other inmates
    4) the FALSE notion that it saves money
    5) punishment
    6) all of the above


    and I'll tell you why not:
    1) easy: jail. escape? an extreme anomaly. you watch too many movies. it's more likely that an innocent man will be put to death than a murderer will escape and kill again.
    2) how could anyone, anywhere, EVER, feel that it is in society's best interests to kill a human being for the comfort of another? seriously, think about that for a second.
    3) then you'd have to put to death about every non-white-collar criminal behind bars
    4) giving people due process for the assurances the DP requires costs MORE than just keeping someone in jail for their entire life. FACT.
    5) I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: how could ending someone's suffering in jail be a bigger punishment than letting them rot in there for the rest of their life? (and if you really believe that inmates in max security have it easy-you have never been there-it's a living hell)
    6) all of the above

    Tell point number 2 to the grieving parents of murdered children.

    And how about the painfully simple concept of letting the punishment fit the crime?
    I had hoped we had moved beyond the "eye for an eye" concept to something that fits a bit better with the society we aspire to have.

    And as for point #2, those grieving parents know that an execution of one individual does not in any way assuage their loss. The concept of "closure", especially in these circumstances, is a load of bollocks. Victims of crime do want to see justice done, and justice can be done with good investigative police work, appropriate prosecution, a fair trial, and imprisonment for those found guilty. Execution doesn't add to justice, it takes away from it.

    Bollocks to you, but not to all.

    Way back in this thread is the case of William Petit who once spoke the same as you, however after losing his daughters and wife to two ghouls... he began to see things differently.

    And an eye for an eye would mean, among various awful fates such as rape, torture and dismemberment. Nbody wants that. So... we can still administer justice showing our level of disdain for the crime we are forced to deal with and still feel good about the society we aspire to be- one free of depraved murderers getting college degrees on the public dime.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    Thirty perhaps you should learn more about the reality of prison life, you continually paint it in a positive light by cherry-picking the most extreme examples of the allowances given to some inmates and extending them as if all receive those benefits. It is a hard and cruel life that fits the punishment of crime better than the release of clinical death.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    rgambs wrote: »
    Thirty perhaps you should learn more about the reality of prison life, you continually paint it in a positive light by cherry-picking the most extreme examples of the allowances given to some inmates and extending them as if all receive those benefits. It is a hard and cruel life that fits the punishment of crime better than the release of clinical death.

    I can acknowledge prison life is difficult (not as much in Canada or in Norway among various 'progressive' countries).

    No matter how difficult prison life might be, its far better than the fates every innocent faced at the hands of the people you seem to be advocating for.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »
    oftenreading wrote: »
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    so tell me what is the purpose of the DP:
    1) protecting society
    2) giving closure to those affected
    3) protecting other inmates
    4) the FALSE notion that it saves money
    5) punishment
    6) all of the above


    and I'll tell you why not:
    1) easy: jail. escape? an extreme anomaly. you watch too many movies. it's more likely that an innocent man will be put to death than a murderer will escape and kill again.
    2) how could anyone, anywhere, EVER, feel that it is in society's best interests to kill a human being for the comfort of another? seriously, think about that for a second.
    3) then you'd have to put to death about every non-white-collar criminal behind bars
    4) giving people due process for the assurances the DP requires costs MORE than just keeping someone in jail for their entire life. FACT.
    5) I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: how could ending someone's suffering in jail be a bigger punishment than letting them rot in there for the rest of their life? (and if you really believe that inmates in max security have it easy-you have never been there-it's a living hell)
    6) all of the above

    Tell point number 2 to the grieving parents of murdered children.

    And how about the painfully simple concept of letting the punishment fit the crime?
    I had hoped we had moved beyond the "eye for an eye" concept to something that fits a bit better with the society we aspire to have.

    And as for point #2, those grieving parents know that an execution of one individual does not in any way assuage their loss. The concept of "closure", especially in these circumstances, is a load of bollocks. Victims of crime do want to see justice done, and justice can be done with good investigative police work, appropriate prosecution, a fair trial, and imprisonment for those found guilty. Execution doesn't add to justice, it takes away from it.

    Bollocks to you, but not to all.

    Way back in this thread is the case of William Petit who once spoke the same as you, however after losing his daughters and wife to two ghouls... he began to see things differently.

    And an eye for an eye would mean, among various awful fates such as rape, torture and dismemberment. Nbody wants that. So... we can still administer justice showing our level of disdain for the crime we are forced to deal with and still feel good about the society we aspire to be- one free of depraved murderers getting college degrees on the public dime.

    And on the other side of the argument is the example of Suman and Manjit Virk, whose daughter was murdered at the age of 14. Despite what they went through, they came out of it willing to meet with one of the murderers and later entered into a process of restorative justice that eventually found them in support of his release from prison on parole. Their ethos is one of understanding and compassion; as Reena's father has said, "when you hold on to anger it can consume you".

    Here is a link to an article that gives a bit of a flavour of what the Virks are all about. A movie has been made about the Virks that is used to help teach principles of restorative justice and encourage earlier intervention with youth who engage in bullying and other violence. There is much else that has been written, if anyone is interested.

    http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/119947854.html
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    I am advocating for society and morality in general, not the perpetrators of crime.

    Saying that prison life is better than the fate of every victim is highly speculative. A lifetime of beatings, rape, and degradation is no trivial thing. Considering we know nothing of what happens after death, a bullet to the brain may well be better than a lifetime of pain, deserved pain though it may be. Not for us to say so definitively.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    I am very aware of the Reena Virk case. I'm not from the area as you are, but in BC and remember vividly.

    This was a case well ahead of its time- unparalleled at the time of the event. Shocking really.

    Understand that this does not fit the parameters of what I feel demands a death sentence.
    "My brain's a good brain!"

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