The Death Penalty

chadwick said:

rr165892 said:

Chad,I'm digging your passion.Your in England right? You folks had some nice DP solutions for ages.Maybe a bit shy of fair trial stuff,but quick and efficient for sure.
Why is guillotine not used anymore?

iowan-corn-shithead, at your service, rr165892. i've lived in washington 9 years or so but moved back here few years ago. never been to england

alice cooper made the guillotine fun

Sorry for confusion Chad,my bad.
tornados ,silos,John Deere tractors and Corey Taylor .niceee So your a redneck,I get that I'm a southerner.

rgambs said:

unsung said:

What do you do with the guy described above?

Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.

And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."

And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.

Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

unsung said:

What do you do with the guy described above?

Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.

And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."

And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.

Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.

You don't know what the victims' families feel, that is pure projection. And, to boot, even if the majority felt the need for vengeance that wouldn't make it right.

According to what you think and your values. Others feel differently though. Neither side is definitively 'right', but with that said... I'm certainly not going to concede I'm wrong.

And call it what you want, but I have a pretty good idea what the families feel. Their grief is splashed all over media pages- not to mention the fact that if some of these stories hit us- people far removed from the crime- in the guts... it's likely 1,000X worse for those living the experience. To illustrate what I mean... look what these stories do to poor Chadwick. He spends the majority of his time in the Poetry section of this band's website. In many threads, he speaks of the world and the beauty one can find within it. Yet, hearing of the senseless and savage crimes described in this thread (and some others)... he goes on an emotion driven tirade that belies his true character.

Don't try to underestimate the depths of the grieving parents. Their pain is profound and to not acknowledge their pain- like your words seemed to do- places you way off base.

Grief simply isn't assuaged by vengeance. I suppose that's my opinion, but I'd take it to the bank.

rgambs said:

Grief simply isn't assuaged by vengeance. I suppose that's my opinion, but I'd take it to the bank.

Maybe. Maybe not. Many have been referenced throughout this thread that did think they needed it though. In particular, Dr. Petit, who lost his wife and two daughters in a horrible home invasion. He was a staunch opponent of the DP until murder touched him personally.

in my opinion it is not exactly vengeance, it's deeper than that. there could be a slight bit of vengeance but it's about taking out the trash more than anything. as good people we have to protect our own. as good people we will be taken into the horrors of sick little shits who throughly enjoy wreaking havoc on the small, the innocent & the vulnerable & sometimes these nasty shits take out those who are not the small, the not so innocent & the not so vulnerable.

i myself & countless others wish to live peacefully in a world as free as can be of the infestation of cruel fucking rejects. fuck around like a disgusting low life & wear a fucking bullet in your skull. simple shit

PJ_Soul said:

Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.

And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.

Do you not see the conflict in your claiming presumption on the parts of (some of) those who support it, yet saying "think they support" is also presumptiously applied here too? Referencing your first four sentences...you're typically not condescending in your posts but to assume those who support the DP are misguided rather than firm - well, it kind of comes off that way.

Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.

Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.

Well...I hope you'll accept or at least seriously consider that those, or the majority of those, who say they support it DO, and not just "think they do".

Semantics in the end but it does make difference, to me at least.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

unsung said:

What do you do with the guy described above?

Isolate him from society and try to move on with life. There is plenty of tax money to afford it if we stop jailing drug offenders. It's a nominal fraction of what is spent on corporate welfare and war.

And should we tell the parents of the kids that too: "Just move on, man. Don't lie there at night thinking of that idiot with his fan club in prison. Just move on. Have another kid or something. Geez."

And how do we isolate him from society? He can remain behind bars, but his very existence places him among us. There are good people that have the job of cleaning his cell, preparing him meals, escorting him throughout the prison, and whatever other task he needs to spend his time behind bars.

Never forget that there have been- and always will be- episodes where killers kill behind bars. You can point to procedural failings if you wish to explain how these people were afforded another opportunity to take a life; however, if doing so... you would be remiss not to acknowledge that in these cases, the DP would have proven to be someone's salvation.

Allowing victims to dole out sentences not prudent. Some would want executions for robbery and theft.

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

Families of victims have very different feelings about it. Many, many of them do not support the DP. Others do. Or think they do. Some are glad when it's been carried out. Others regret that it was. I think it's very presumptuous to use the argument that it's the right thing to do because of the victims' families. It is a FACT that the DP does not help some of them, does nothing either way for some others, and in some cases even makes it worse. I think people should throw that whole argument right out the window when arguing for the DP. It is completely irrelevant since it isn't applicable to a lot of people and is only theoretical until after the fact anyway.

And rgambs, shit, sorry about your family's experiences (what's the deal with your brother???). And for the other person whose family was murdered. Jesus. I never read those posts, but whoever you are, deep condolences.

Do you not see the conflict in your claiming presumption on the parts of (some of) those who support it, yet saying "think they support" is also presumptiously applied here too? Referencing your first four sentences...you're typically not condescending in your posts but to assume those who support the DP are misguided rather than firm - well, it kind of comes off that way.

Of course the DP doesn't help some (and when I say help, I mean closure in coming to terms with the violent treatment of their loved ones - it's not an automatic, I understand that). But it also does do that for others, shuts a window, allows a sense of balance even if a small one...and if one is willing to toss aside the argument for it based on that it doesn't help some...isn't it also worth it to give further consideration on behalf of those it has helped? Call me callous, but my sympathies will typically lean toward those who've lost in an awful way vs those who caused it.

Cheers to this circle game. Figured I'd throw another nickel into the mix.

No, I'm not condescending here. I don't mean to say that those who support the DP aren't firm in their viewpoint. But to say "think of the families of the victims - I bet they support it!" is indeed presumptuous, since many of those people specifically claim that the DP in no way helped them, and in some cases made things worse for them. Given that, I just don't think that particular argument holds up as a defense for capital punishment, no more than the deterrence argument does.

Or the costs. Or the assurance innocents will be put to death. Or giving the government means to permanently silence. Or allowing a morally wrong thing to be condoned by a civilized society. Or saying one thing, don't kill yet that's what we're doing.

Other than satisfying our blood thirst craving, see no benefit in killing criminals.

We need to rise above our emotional needs and do what's right.