Gaza ***GRAPHIC PICS***

I was going to send this to benjs as a PM, but decided to post it here instead. I think Ben deserves props; young people like him are key to ending the bloodshed.


Ben!
What's up brother? Thanks for your contributions to the Israel/Palestine threads. I remember you posting on the board a long time ago, about knowing people who had made Aliyah, and wondering where you stood on the conflict/occupation...in following your recent posts, it seems you have just recently taken it upon yourself to get more informed on the topic; most importantly, with an open mind. And for that you've had tensions with family and loved ones. I have had some intense discussions with my own family on this topic...I would describe my family as opposed to organized religion, but their beliefs are rooted in Christian upbringing, with a mainstream media moulded worldview. They have no vested interest, and only a narrow scope of knowledge on this topic, and it's still a tough conversation to have. I can only imagine what its like for you...it takes some balls to speak your mind and seek truth, and I commend you for doing so.
Mandi mentioned a while back that you might be hitting the Denver show with her...I'm trying to make it down but not sure if I can swing it. When I first saw you posting in those threads, after your prior Aliyah comment, I was a bit concerned that it could get nasty, and it would be a bit awkward to see you in Denver...but I think you've proven yourself reasonable, with good intentions toward a just peace.
Hope we're able to meet up in Denver and share a couple pops and a j like we did in Manhattan four (!!) years ago...only legally!
Peace
K

Israel is hanging itself by it's own use of social media..
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/impact-social-media-israelgaza-conflict/1182

Drowned Out said:

I was going to send this to benjs as a PM, but decided to post it here instead. I think Ben deserves props; young people like him are key to ending the bloodshed.


Ben!
What's up brother? Thanks for your contributions to the Israel/Palestine threads. I remember you posting on the board a long time ago, about knowing people who had made Aliyah, and wondering where you stood on the conflict/occupation...in following your recent posts, it seems you have just recently taken it upon yourself to get more informed on the topic; most importantly, with an open mind. And for that you've had tensions with family and loved ones. I have had some intense discussions with my own family on this topic...I would describe my family as opposed to organized religion, but their beliefs are rooted in Christian upbringing, with a mainstream media moulded worldview. They have no vested interest, and only a narrow scope of knowledge on this topic, and it's still a tough conversation to have. I can only imagine what its like for you...it takes some balls to speak your mind and seek truth, and I commend you for doing so.
Mandi mentioned a while back that you might be hitting the Denver show with her...I'm trying to make it down but not sure if I can swing it. When I first saw you posting in those threads, after your prior Aliyah comment, I was a bit concerned that it could get nasty, and it would be a bit awkward to see you in Denver...but I think you've proven yourself reasonable, with good intentions toward a just peace.
Hope we're able to meet up in Denver and share a couple pops and a j like we did in Manhattan four (!!) years ago...only legally!
Peace
K

Thanks for the recognition K! I think I've made my position very clear here: I am pro-Peace. I'm a logical person, and if you can present me with logic - I assure you, it means much more to me than anyone's opinion; even those I love very, very much. For the record, I am not in the minority. Sure, there are people who opt not to learn, and post pictures about the cupcakes they made for the IDF soldiers (that person is no longer my friend on Facebook, and to be honest, hardly was in the real world), but on the other hand, I have strongly Zionistic friends who are now getting into heated discussions (people ranging from their 20s to some even in their 60s) about Israel's actions, and many people are no longer tolerating an uninformed opinion. My own grandmother - an 87 year old bigot to astonishing proportions - is currently mortified with the current actions of the Israeli government, and it is a testament to her that she continues to push for debate with her 85 year old boyfriend - a Hungarian survivor of the Holocaust. I'm sure I sound like a broken record when I come on here and call for people to learn more, from multiple viewpoints, and come up with their own conclusions, but it's all you can do. The best education you can get on a volatile situation will inevitably be from reading the most that you possibly can. And every question I've posed here, I've received an incredibly reasonable answer to, typically with viable sources to back them up.

As for nastiness, every participant in this discussion has good cause to show skepticism (I certainly did at first when I started here), but my rule of thumb is to picture the face of a real human being on the other side of the screen. If you wouldn't say something to someone's face - don't say it here. Seems most (albeit not all) of us active in this discussion are feeling the same way, which is refreshing.

As for truly far less important things: yes, I'm hoping to make it to Denver, but that'll be contingent on a ticket! Hope you, badbrains, Mandi and I can get super baked and share a love for Peace and Pearl Jam together!

Ben

Drowned Out said:

I was going to send this to benjs as a PM, but decided to post it here instead. I think Ben deserves props; young people like him are key to ending the bloodshed.


Ben!
What's up brother? Thanks for your contributions to the Israel/Palestine threads. I remember you posting on the board a long time ago, about knowing people who had made Aliyah, and wondering where you stood on the conflict/occupation...in following your recent posts, it seems you have just recently taken it upon yourself to get more informed on the topic; most importantly, with an open mind. And for that you've had tensions with family and loved ones. I have had some intense discussions with my own family on this topic...I would describe my family as opposed to organized religion, but their beliefs are rooted in Christian upbringing, with a mainstream media moulded worldview. They have no vested interest, and only a narrow scope of knowledge on this topic, and it's still a tough conversation to have. I can only imagine what its like for you...it takes some balls to speak your mind and seek truth, and I commend you for doing so.
Mandi mentioned a while back that you might be hitting the Denver show with her...I'm trying to make it down but not sure if I can swing it. When I first saw you posting in those threads, after your prior Aliyah comment, I was a bit concerned that it could get nasty, and it would be a bit awkward to see you in Denver...but I think you've proven yourself reasonable, with good intentions toward a just peace.
Hope we're able to meet up in Denver and share a couple pops and a j like we did in Manhattan four (!!) years ago...only legally!
Peace
K

By the way, and I think this is an important distinction - a lot of this discussion has to do with trust. I know what you wrote wasn't intentional or delivered with malice, but your statement at the end about my having proven myself reasonable brings up an important notion: many people, very soon, are going to have to inherently trust the people they formerly called their enemies. It's going to be ages (probably generations) until a TRUE peace sweeps the area (ie. the abolishment of hatred itself), but trust will play an integral role.

Kyle, we hung out, had a great time, smoked some weed, and all had fun at an awesome rock concert. Yet because I had posted about a friend making Aliyah (and while I don't remember the details or context of that discussion, I'm assuming all I had posted was that I didn't wish that harm would befall him), it meant that I needed to prove myself just to elevate my status to reasonable over time. If this happens over a discussion on a Pearl Jam forum between two people who don't consider themselves religious (and have hung out and shot the shit together) - what's going to happen when Israelis and Palestinians are free to roam between each others' territories?

This is where social media can have tremendous impact: there's ripe opportunity for Israelis and Palestinians to talk privately, learn that they are in fact all human beings, and that they both love life and hate death. This may be an idealist notion, but I think this is necessary for an everlasting and, as you said, just Peace. And this is where absurd nationalist/Zionist propaganda needs to cease, as well as what ever equivalents exist within Palestinian regions. "Make love, not war" may seem like a bullshit hippie expression, but the truth is, a government must defend its people. All of us in the world must do our part, as the notion that "without Israel's stronghold over Gaza and the West Bank, Israel will not be safe" is a prevalent viewpoint amongst Israelis, and this is one that we, Citizens of Earth, can help deal with. If the Israeli government wants to claim that Israel's presence in Palestinian regions is for the safety of its people, we should do our part to strip them of that one *quasi-legitimate* reason for being there. This is a way we can change things. This is a way we ARE changing things. And, guess what, if Israelis and Palestinians want to hold hands everywhere across the world and Israel's government then says "I forbid it, we won't lower our walls" - just TRY and keep the world silent. Peace speaks louder than weapons.

A fair ceasefire would bring major relief for Gaza, which would mean Hamas wins the war.

The ceasefire that the world is now pushing for – one that, as UN chief Ban Ki-Moon put it, not only ends the fighting but also ends Israel’s “chokehold on Gaza” – is one that the Netanyahu government will not accept. It should accept it, because Gazans have the right to be free, but it won’t. Its rejection of John Kerry’s offer on Friday – which reportedly would have allowed the Israeli army to go on destroying Gazan tunnels even during a week-long ceasefire – is a sign of this.

If Israel agrees to end the war on terms that grant major, transformative relief to Gaza, that largely lift the blockade on the Strip and allow Gazans substantial freedom of movement – which is what Ban and even Kerry are talking about – then Hamas wins the war.

And this Israeli government will not allow that, not only because of false national pride, but also because if Hamas wins freedom for Gaza, it will take over the West Bank, directly or indirectly. The Palestinian Authority will collapse – to be replaced by Hamas or the Israeli military, either scenario being a nightmare for Israel – or the Palestinian Authority will refuse to go on playing Israel’s cop and begin demanding freedom for the West Bank, too.

As Noam Sheizaf wrote, Israel could agree to a ceasefire that ended the chokehold on Gaza if it was ready to end the occupation of the Palestinian territories altogether, in the West Bank as well. But it’s not. And so the only ceasefire the Netanyahu government will agree to is one that gains Gaza nothing or, at most, finds Israel throwing it a bone, thereby teaching Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians that firing rockets at Israel – even under extreme Israeli provocation – gets them nothing but a lot more pain.

So long as the Israeli government is committed to ruling the Palestinians, any meaningful relaxation of that rule as a result of Palestinian pressure amounts to a Palestinian victory, an Israeli loss, and an Israeli invitation to the Palestinians to apply more of the kind of pressure that won them that first victory – in this case, violence. If this pro-occupation Israeli government agrees to anything close to allowing Gazans to control their own coast and airspace, to move to and from the West Bank by land through the Israeli border crossings, and if it releases the 58 West Bank Hamasniks it rashly and wrongly imprisoned again last month, Hamas would almost certainly keep the peace in Gaza – but the West Bank would likely explode. And if that were to happen, Gaza would probably break the ceasefire and join the fighting.

Palestinians march during a protest against the Israeli attack on Gaza in the Qalandyia checkpoint near Ramallah, July 24, 2014. (photo: Activestills)
Palestinians march during a protest against the Israeli attack on Gaza in the Qalandyia checkpoint near Ramallah, July 24, 2014. (photo: Activestills)
It’s really all or nothing – either Israel goes about the business of freeing the Palestinians, or it better clamp down on them good and tight for as long as it can. And since this government is not ready to do the former, doing the latter is its only option.

So when Ban says “this effort – peace effort – cannot be the same as it was the last two Gaza conflicts, where we reset the clock and waited for the next one,” and Kerry says “people in Palestine, the Palestinian territories and people in Gaza have a right to feel free from restraints on their life, where they can barely get the food or the medicine or the building materials and the things that they need,” Netanyahu and his cabinet just tune out. They’re not interested. That’s not the ceasefire they have in mind at all.

The only one they’re interested in is the kind Egypt put forward at first – a return to the status quo ante, with Gaza back in the sewer, and nothing more than vague, toothless assurances to discuss Gaza’s complaints. Hamas didn’t agree to it then, and ever since, with the scenes of mounting death and destruction in Gaza, world diplomacy has shifted toward Hamas’ position (a ceasefire that at least loosens the blockade substantially) and away from Israel’s position (a ceasefire that keeps the blockade in place).

So as the war nears the end of its third week with over 1,000 Gazan deaths and 43 Israeli deaths, the effort to end it is at a stalemate. If and when this will be broken, no one knows. But once again, the ball is in Israel’s court, and once again, Israel is freezing it.
continues at:
http://972mag.com/why-israel-wont-sign-any-ceasefire-thats-fair/94372/