Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    WhatYouTaughtMe said:

    So what are you expecting Ed to do instead of singing a song? Create a ceasefire? Strap on a gun and join the fight? He's a rock singer who often makes commentary on different issues and has long been against all forms of war, no matter which side was the aggressor. I don't really feel like he owes anybody anything. Why should a high school dropout rock singer, be expected to do more than share his point of view and sing a rock song?

    Just what he did in Milton Keynes - Speak out against the oppressor using U.S tax dollars to drop bombs on children.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:

    I agree that empathizing with Gaza does not make you anti-semitic. Failing to confront Hamas unfortunately does.

    No it doesn't. Not 'confronting Hamas' does not constitute racism.

  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    WhatYouTaughtMe said:

    Byrnzie said:

    Can I just take this moment to say something about Vedder's stance on this? I thought it was great that he spoke his mind in Milton Keynes, and expressed rage at the gross injustice befalling the Palestinians.
    I didn't think it was so great that he back-pedalled with his 'I'm still anti-War!' comment. It's not a war Ed, it's a fucking massacre.
    And singing John Lennon's 'Imagine' in concert achieves nothing. It's just sentimentality. A great song, yes, but we need action at a time like this, not passive naval gazing.

    So what are you expecting Ed to do instead of singing a song? Create a ceasefire? Strap on a gun and join the fight? He's a rock singer who often makes commentary on different issues and has long been against all forms of war, no matter which side was the aggressor. I don't really feel like he owes anybody anything. Why should a high school dropout rock singer, be expected to do more than share his point of view and sing a rock song?
    Yeah, Ed was frustrated by what was happening and used the forum in front of him to express that. I don't believe his point was ever anti-Israeli in particular, simply antiwar in general. Israel certainly was part of the inspiration but not the only inspiration. If he wanted to condemn Israel's actions specifically, he would have.

    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    I thought it was great that he spoke his mind in Milton Keynes, and expressed rage at the gross injustice befalling the Palestinians.

    He didn't express rage at the gross injustice befalling the Palestinians. He expressed rage at the victims of war world wide (including Israel and Palestine). What you are doing is called projection.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:


    Hamas hates jews, Much of the PLO hates jews, Hezbollah hates Jews, Iranian leadership hates Jews, ISIS hates jews, the Pro-Palestinian demonstrators in France that attacked synagogues and Jewish businesses clearly hate jews. I could go on. In fact everyone just listed not only want the destruction of Israel but they generally want the death of all jews.

    Now I am not suggesting that Dignin, BadBrains, Byrnzie, Eldarion, Gimme and Drowned Out want the death of all jews but when it comes to supporting the palestinian resistance movement they tend to play on the same team with those that do. And there's the rub...until the peaceful palestinian supporters (which I assume they all are) counter the Jew haters in their movement there shall be no peace. Anti-semitism is unfortunately a slow growing cancer and those that truly want peace must either counter it or be consumed by it.

    Do you have any idea at all how ridiculous you sound?

    I do not believe it is ridiculous to ask for those that want peace to confront the jew haters that have co-opted their movement.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JimmyV said:

    I don't believe his point was ever anti-Israeli in particular, simply antiwar in general.

    So when he spoke of using U.S tax dollars to drop bombs on children, and told 'them' to get the fuck out of land that doesn't belong to 'them', who do you suppose he was referring to?



  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    Here's how I look at it. I believe ed meant Israel all along. And when all the hoopla came out, he made this statement. Now here's how you can look at it. Either A-he could've came out and said my statement WASNT directed at Israel. B-come out and say it was Israel directly or C-sort of back track but not, which is what i believe he did. Sucks he couldn't be more firm and straightforward like he did at Milton keys but to each is his own.
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:

    I agree that empathizing with Gaza does not make you anti-semitic. Failing to confront Hamas unfortunately does.

    No it doesn't. Not 'confronting Hamas' does not constitute racism.

    Then a partner for peace you are not.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:


    I do not believe it is ridiculous to ask for those that want peace to confront the jew haters that have co-opted their movement.

    Except that's not what you said. You said Failing to confront Hamas makes someone a racist.

  • WhatYouTaughtMe
    WhatYouTaughtMe Posts: 4,957
    edited July 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    WhatYouTaughtMe said:

    So what are you expecting Ed to do instead of singing a song? Create a ceasefire? Strap on a gun and join the fight? He's a rock singer who often makes commentary on different issues and has long been against all forms of war, no matter which side was the aggressor. I don't really feel like he owes anybody anything. Why should a high school dropout rock singer, be expected to do more than share his point of view and sing a rock song?

    Just what he did in Milton Keynes - Speak out against the oppressor using U.S tax dollars to drop bombs on children.

    Edit- I read it again and that is what he said without being specific. Regardless, I was just wondering why Ed owes you or me any kind of explanation or clarification. He's a rock singer with an opinion. If you're looking for him to lead the cause for one side or the other, I wouldn't hold my breath. Just look how much hate and divisiveness there is on this thread that started as a blanket statement for peace. I can't imagine why he would jump in the middle of this mess.
    Post edited by WhatYouTaughtMe on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    What I find interesting is that Jews think that they're so special that they even deserve their own special brand of racism.

    Apparently there's racism, and then there's anti-Semitism. And we're all supposed to just nod in agreement.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    Byrnzie said:


    JimmyV said:

    I don't believe his point was ever anti-Israeli in particular, simply antiwar in general.

    So when he spoke of using U.S tax dollars to drop bombs on children, and told 'them' to get the fuck out of land that doesn't belong to 'them', who do you suppose he was referring to?



    As I said, Israel was part of the inspiration. But is Israel the only country that receives military aid from the US? Of course not.

    I was at the Hartford show which was the last time Ed went on a controversy causing political rant. That time his target was the NRA and the gun lobby...and he could not have been more specific. That didn't happen this time. If he had wanted to single out Israel, he would have.

    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    dignin said:

    Luckytwn1 said:



    A survey last month by the anti-defamation league found that 26% of those polled — representing approximately 1.1 billion adults worldwide — harbor deeply anti-Semitic views. If you are searching for these people, you need look no further than the streets outside of Israeli embassies across the world, where anti-Semites disguised as humanitarians from Sydney to Boston demand an end to the imagined Gaza genocide.

    So if I protest against this "war" I'm an anti-Semite?
    Dignin, you and I and byrnzie and eldarion and Gimmie and drowned out and whoever else have chosen to speak up, are no anti-Semites.

    Debatable


    How so ? please explain
    Hamas hates jews, Much of the PLO hates jews, Hezbollah hates Jews, Iranian leadership hates Jews, ISIS hates jews, the Pro-Palestinian demonstrators in France that attacked synagogues and Jewish businesses clearly hate jews. I could go on. In fact everyone just listed not only want the destruction of Israel but they generally want the death of all jews.

    Now I am not suggesting that Dignin, BadBrains, Byrnzie, Eldarion, Gimme and Drowned Out want the death of all jews but when it comes to supporting the palestinian resistance movement they tend to play on the same team with those that do. And there's the rub...until the peaceful palestinian supporters (which I assume they all are) counter the Jew haters in their movement there shall be no peace. Anti-semitism is unfortunately a slow growing cancer and those that truly want peace must either counter it or be consumed by it.
    If anti-semitism is on the rise like a cancer in the world, maybe those who feel that way should maybe look at themselves and find out why the worlds view is growing in anger against them? Mite not like what you see, but it's a start. Just my opinion.
    Ahhhh...yes...the jew must look at himself. Thank you badbrains for proving my point.
    And what the fuck is wrong with that? Really? What, are they above everybody else? Now all of a sudden you can't tell someone to look at themselves without being labeled anti-Semite? Please. Run along, leave your non sense on the Israel FB page. Fucken unreal
    I can handle criticism. Israel can handle criticism. We don't equate criticism with anti-semitism. However, when I mention palestinian protestors in France attacking jewish businesses and synagogues and your response is "maybe those who feel that way (that anti-semitism is on the rise) should maybe look at themselves" well I tend to look at that as a defence of violence and dare I say...anti-semitism.
    Jewish immigrants never really did themselves any favours in a lot of the countries they moved into, usually becoming money lenders backed up by muscle to get 'what was owed'.
    This is anti-semitism.
    it is absolute fact that in the past Jewish people tended towards money lending (because it was a smart and effective way to earn a good living) and tended to become wealthy and powerful in their local area because of it
    Generalization of an entire group of people. Check. Propagation of the Jews/Money narrative. Check. Anti-Semitism. Check.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    dignin said:

    Luckytwn1 said:



    A survey last month by the anti-defamation league found that 26% of those polled — representing approximately 1.1 billion adults worldwide — harbor deeply anti-Semitic views. If you are searching for these people, you need look no further than the streets outside of Israeli embassies across the world, where anti-Semites disguised as humanitarians from Sydney to Boston demand an end to the imagined Gaza genocide.

    So if I protest against this "war" I'm an anti-Semite?
    Dignin, you and I and byrnzie and eldarion and Gimmie and drowned out and whoever else have chosen to speak up, are no anti-Semites.

    Debatable


    How so ? please explain
    Hamas hates jews, Much of the PLO hates jews, Hezbollah hates Jews, Iranian leadership hates Jews, ISIS hates jews, the Pro-Palestinian demonstrators in France that attacked synagogues and Jewish businesses clearly hate jews. I could go on. In fact everyone just listed not only want the destruction of Israel but they generally want the death of all jews.

    Now I am not suggesting that Dignin, BadBrains, Byrnzie, Eldarion, Gimme and Drowned Out want the death of all jews but when it comes to supporting the palestinian resistance movement they tend to play on the same team with those that do. And there's the rub...until the peaceful palestinian supporters (which I assume they all are) counter the Jew haters in their movement there shall be no peace. Anti-semitism is unfortunately a slow growing cancer and those that truly want peace must either counter it or be consumed by it.
    If anti-semitism is on the rise like a cancer in the world, maybe those who feel that way should maybe look at themselves and find out why the worlds view is growing in anger against them? Mite not like what you see, but it's a start. Just my opinion.
    Ahhhh...yes...the jew must look at himself. Thank you badbrains for proving my point.
    And what the fuck is wrong with that? Really? What, are they above everybody else? Now all of a sudden you can't tell someone to look at themselves without being labeled anti-Semite? Please. Run along, leave your non sense on the Israel FB page. Fucken unreal
    I can handle criticism. Israel can handle criticism. We don't equate criticism with anti-semitism. However, when I mention palestinian protestors in France attacking jewish businesses and synagogues and your response is "maybe those who feel that way (that anti-semitism is on the rise) should maybe look at themselves" well I tend to look at that as a defence of violence and dare I say...anti-semitism.
    Jewish immigrants never really did themselves any favours in a lot of the countries they moved into, usually becoming money lenders backed up by muscle to get 'what was owed'.
    This is anti-semitism.
    it is absolute fact that in the past Jewish people tended towards money lending (because it was a smart and effective way to earn a good living) and tended to become wealthy and powerful in their local area because of it
    Generalization of an entire group of people. Check. Propagation of the Jews/Money narrative. Check. Anti-Semitism. Check.
    Seriously, the antisemitism card in the wake of wholesale slaughter looks like nothing more than a deflection.

    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JimmyV said:

    As I said, Israel was part of the inspiration. But is Israel the only country that receives military aid from the US? Of course not.

    You clearly have a problem with reality.

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    Byrnzie said:

    BS44325 said:


    I do not believe it is ridiculous to ask for those that want peace to confront the jew haters that have co-opted their movement.

    Except that's not what you said. You said Failing to confront Hamas makes someone a racist.

    I said failing to confront Hamas makes someone anti-semitic. It also makes them anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-christian and anti-peace. Hamas is the enemy of progress. If you want peace they cannot lead you.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    Byrnzie said:

    JimmyV said:

    As I said, Israel was part of the inspiration. But is Israel the only country that receives military aid from the US? Of course not.

    You clearly have a problem with reality.

    OK Byrnzie.

    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:

    I said failing to confront Hamas makes someone anti-semitic. It also makes them anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-christian and anti-peace. Hamas is the enemy of progress. If you want peace they cannot lead you.

    You need to watch less T.V.

  • BS44325
    BS44325 Posts: 6,124
    JimmyV said:

    BS44325 said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    BS44325 said:

    eldarion75 said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    BS44325 said:

    josevolution said:

    BS44325 said:

    badbrains said:

    dignin said:

    Luckytwn1 said:



    A survey last month by the anti-defamation league found that 26% of those polled — representing approximately 1.1 billion adults worldwide — harbor deeply anti-Semitic views. If you are searching for these people, you need look no further than the streets outside of Israeli embassies across the world, where anti-Semites disguised as humanitarians from Sydney to Boston demand an end to the imagined Gaza genocide.

    So if I protest against this "war" I'm an anti-Semite?
    Dignin, you and I and byrnzie and eldarion and Gimmie and drowned out and whoever else have chosen to speak up, are no anti-Semites.

    Debatable


    How so ? please explain
    Hamas hates jews, Much of the PLO hates jews, Hezbollah hates Jews, Iranian leadership hates Jews, ISIS hates jews, the Pro-Palestinian demonstrators in France that attacked synagogues and Jewish businesses clearly hate jews. I could go on. In fact everyone just listed not only want the destruction of Israel but they generally want the death of all jews.

    Now I am not suggesting that Dignin, BadBrains, Byrnzie, Eldarion, Gimme and Drowned Out want the death of all jews but when it comes to supporting the palestinian resistance movement they tend to play on the same team with those that do. And there's the rub...until the peaceful palestinian supporters (which I assume they all are) counter the Jew haters in their movement there shall be no peace. Anti-semitism is unfortunately a slow growing cancer and those that truly want peace must either counter it or be consumed by it.
    If anti-semitism is on the rise like a cancer in the world, maybe those who feel that way should maybe look at themselves and find out why the worlds view is growing in anger against them? Mite not like what you see, but it's a start. Just my opinion.
    Ahhhh...yes...the jew must look at himself. Thank you badbrains for proving my point.
    And what the fuck is wrong with that? Really? What, are they above everybody else? Now all of a sudden you can't tell someone to look at themselves without being labeled anti-Semite? Please. Run along, leave your non sense on the Israel FB page. Fucken unreal
    I can handle criticism. Israel can handle criticism. We don't equate criticism with anti-semitism. However, when I mention palestinian protestors in France attacking jewish businesses and synagogues and your response is "maybe those who feel that way (that anti-semitism is on the rise) should maybe look at themselves" well I tend to look at that as a defence of violence and dare I say...anti-semitism.
    Jewish immigrants never really did themselves any favours in a lot of the countries they moved into, usually becoming money lenders backed up by muscle to get 'what was owed'.
    This is anti-semitism.
    it is absolute fact that in the past Jewish people tended towards money lending (because it was a smart and effective way to earn a good living) and tended to become wealthy and powerful in their local area because of it
    Generalization of an entire group of people. Check. Propagation of the Jews/Money narrative. Check. Anti-Semitism. Check.
    Seriously, the antisemitism card in the wake of wholesale slaughter looks like nothing more than a deflection.

    Two separate arguments. I have not tried to deflect or dodge any criticism of Israeli military action. This is a thread on being anti-war. The question is how do we get there. I want Israeli military action to end. I want it to end now. To ask for the end of jew hatred should not be considered an outrageous request.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BS44325 said:

    He didn't express rage at the gross injustice befalling the Palestinians. He expressed rage at the victims of war world wide (including Israel and Palestine). What you are doing is called projection.

    He said that U.S tax dollars shouldn't be used to drop bombs on babies. He also told them to get the fuck out of land that doesn't belong to them.

    So who do you suppose he was referring to?

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