Iraq

mattsl1983 · June 2014

rgambs said:
mattsl1983
you ask many snarky questions on this board and i am seeing that you avoid answering the snarky questions that are asked of you so why dont you tell us, without hindsight or blaming EITHER administration what solution you would offer? How many lives is it worth to you to be the Middle East Police...if its just a humanitarian urge, without media/political influence, dont you think we could save more lives for less money if we went to the Sudan with our aid?

Yes I make snarky comments here, and I also address questions asked of me. At this point, I think we owe it to Iraq to help them. We created this mess. Is it okay for you to just walk away? It is the humanitarian thing to do. I could care less about the politics. We are here. What's going to define us is do we do right or do we just walk away from this? Also why does everyone assume that any idea that opposes yours is media driven, but none of yours are? I read multiple news sources daily. I form my own opinion. I don't dismiss this source or that source and only take information from a soured I agree with.

rgambs · June 2014

so staying and losing young american lives, while killing unfortunate iraqi bystanders is whats "right"? Many people disagree with you on that one. If sunnis and shiites want to flood their streets with blood i can sleep easier than if it is my tax dollars and young DUPED americans participating in the blood letting. Let's not forget that roadside IED's arent infused with uranium like our munitions, and therefore wont contribute to the cancer and birth defect rates that have passes those of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, thanks to our "helping hands". Humanitarian aid to extract children from dangerous areas. Humanitarian aid to repair the contamination we are responsible for. Otherwise, lets not be the world police and hurt those we are trying to help.

mattsl1983 · June 2014

Cosmos, yes we took action already. But we pulled out before we should have. And this idea that so many though it was wrong to do in the first place is inncorect. If you look at public support to going to war in Iraq, almost every source (I use almost because I'm sure there might be one out there that is different but I haven't seen it yet) shows a + 70% approval from the public in 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't think we should wipe our hands clean. I'm not saying we need to go all out boots on the ground. But we have to do something and offer support. This is kind of our creation.

There is also a much larger global scale this falls on. Credibility, global presence, ect ect. Are we now as "leaders of the free world" going to say yea, sorry about that. Good luck? Pacifism ultimately losses to aggression. Whether we like it our not, this is the world we live in.

mattsl1983 · June 2014

And to the idea of "and lose more american lives", are we to sit back and just watch many Iraqs lives get lost and ruined do to our previous actions? I thought most of you people here valued life, what's the right thing, to help those in need, stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves ect ect. But naw, when it comes down to it, we value american lives more than any other lives. What's an american life worth vs an Iraqi life? Is it a 1 = 7?

Smellyman · June 2014

mattsl1983 said:
And to the idea of "and lose more american lives", are we to sit back and just watch many Iraqs lives get lost and ruined do to our previous actions? I thought most of you people here valued life, what's the right thing, to help those in need, stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves ect ect. But naw, when it comes down to it, we value american lives more than any other lives. What's an american life worth vs an Iraqi life? Is it a 1 = 7?

Had this conversation with a friend who was in the military. there wasn't a number high enough. He said my life is worth thousands more than innocent civilians from another country.

that was a mindfuck to me

tempo_n_groove · June 2014

Has anyone talking about this ever been there?

I have, and if you haven't then you might not understand the "how" and "why" things go on there. It's completely different in the way they think and do things. That's the best description I can offer in short.

Iraq falling was inevitable and will only open up more rifts. It's going to get worse, a lot worse…

Last-12-Exit · June 2014

mattsl1983 said:
Cosmos, yes we took action already. But we pulled out before we should have. And this idea that so many though it was wrong to do in the first place is inncorect. If you look at public support to going to war in Iraq, almost every source (I use almost because I'm sure there might be one out there that is different but I haven't seen it yet) shows a + 70% approval from the public in 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't think we should wipe our hands clean. I'm not saying we need to go all out boots on the ground. But we have to do something and offer support. This is kind of our creation.

There is also a much larger global scale this falls on. Credibility, global presence, ect ect. Are we now as "leaders of the free world" going to say yea, sorry about that. Good luck? Pacifism ultimately losses to aggression. Whether we like it our not, this is the world we live in.

That 70% approval came after being directly lied go by Bush and Cheney with their weapons of mass destruction theory. They had no exit strategy. We didn't walk away to soon. We didn't walk away soon enough. We have no business being over. We don't owe Iraq a damn thing.

gimmesometruth27 · June 2014

Last-12-Exit said:

mattsl1983 said:
Cosmos, yes we took action already. But we pulled out before we should have. And this idea that so many though it was wrong to do in the first place is inncorect. If you look at public support to going to war in Iraq, almost every source (I use almost because I'm sure there might be one out there that is different but I haven't seen it yet) shows a + 70% approval from the public in 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't think we should wipe our hands clean. I'm not saying we need to go all out boots on the ground. But we have to do something and offer support. This is kind of our creation.

There is also a much larger global scale this falls on. Credibility, global presence, ect ect. Are we now as "leaders of the free world" going to say yea, sorry about that. Good luck? Pacifism ultimately losses to aggression. Whether we like it our not, this is the world we live in.
That 70% approval came after being directly lied go by Bush and Cheney with their weapons of mass destruction theory. They had no exit strategy. We didn't walk away to soon. We didn't walk away soon enough. We have no business being over. We don't owe Iraq a damn thing.

exactly. we were directly lied to.

but aside from that, i was on here back then, i was out there in the streets protesting. i was told on this very message board to get the fuck out of the country. i was called a pussy because i opposed the war. i remember what happened to pearl jam in denver and what happened to the dixie chicks for speaking out. i know this message board was monitored after denver. i know of at least one guy who was deported in part because of what he said on this message board.

i remember. i am not going to forget.

i was right then, and i am right now.

hans blix could not find any weapons. yet bushco swore they were there. colin powell fell on his sword and lied to the un.

i remember what americans said about france for not helping. remember "freedom fries??"

we gave it our best shot in iraq. we are done there. we failed there. we won the war but lost the peace. there is nothing we can do now to help fix anything. this is all our fault. cowboy diplomacy. america, fuck yeah!!!

how about we let the un deal with it?

how about we let israel deal with it? they have the best military in the region. they are a regional power, let them have a crack at it,and let us, for once, stop fucking meddling with other countries..

Byrnzie · June 2014

gimmesometruth27 said:

exactly. we were directly lied to.

but aside from that, i was on here back then, i was out there in the streets protesting. i was told on this very message board to get the fuck out of the country. i was called a pussy because i opposed the war. i remember what happened to pearl jam in denver and what happened to the dixie chicks for speaking out. i know this message board was monitored after denver. i know of at least one guy who was deported in part because of what he said on this message board.

i remember. i am not going to forget.

i was right then, and i am right now.

hans blix could not find any weapons. yet bushco swore they were there. colin powell fell on his sword and lied to the un.

i remember what americans said about france for not helping. remember "freedom fries??"

we gave it our best shot in iraq. we are done there. we failed there. we won the war but lost the peace. there is nothing we can do now to help fix anything. this is all our fault. cowboy diplomacy. america, fuck yeah!!!

how about we let the un deal with it?

how about we let israel deal with it? they have the best military in the region. they are a regional power, let them have a crack at it,and let us, for once, stop fucking meddling with other countries..

Too late. The U.S did meddle with it, and now it's the U.S's responsibility to fix the mess they created.

As for Israel, do you really think any Arab country would allow those racist lunatics in? It would be like throwing fuel onto the fire.

gimmesometruth27 · June 2014

i respectfully disagree byrnzie.

i do agree that we meddled and we broke it, and in the strongest possible terms, we fucked it up.

but that was 11 years ago.

we have spent a trillion dollars on the war, the aftermath, and the training of the iraqi army. what is the iraqi army doing? they are tucking tail and running. it is their country. it is their responsibility to defend it from the militants.

there is nothing that the americans can do to fix it. they can do airstrikes, but we see how well those work...we can use drones, but those are inaccurate. we can use diplomacy, but congress will not allow us to do anything peacefully because that would require us to cede some influence in the region. we can commit more boots on the ground, but who are we going to fight? we put more boots on the ground, the neighboring countries will get involved and militants will go there because it is an opportunity to kill some infidels.

as of israel, they have been hiding behind america for too long. they have been expanding settlements because america will bail them out at the un and fight on their behalf. i am tired of spilling blood and pissing away dollars by the billion in the middle east. let saudi arabia step up. let some country in the region step up.

you know what is gonna happen, russia is going to get involved and that is going to suck the us back in, and this is your third great war.

Godfather. · June 2014

like I have said before,it's been going on for thousands of years and it will never stop,the U.S needs to walk away until they make

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/13/militants-vow-to-march-on-baghdad-as-obama-administration-mulls-response/

solve your problems......did barry-o say that ??????? hahhahhahhahhahha
...
Sir... I need to ask...
what is funny about that?
I mean, what is so funny about telling Iraq that they need to quit dropping their weapons and waiving the white flag as soon as someone points a gun at them?
How much money did we spent trainning thier forces? How many Servicemen and women lost thie lives or have been serverly injured in standing them up to fight for themselves?
Please, tell me why shouldn't they use the weapons and trainning we gave them... to stand up and fight for themselves?
I am seriously looking forward to see how you answer this.

well ISIS goal is to create a muslim state, this whole topic is what I have been in disagreement with, the muslims want a muslim world and are willing to kill anybody who even disagrees with them and you think I should be concerned with them ? I'm not sure what your getting at, my whole gripe with this is if the U.S helps either side as they did some years ago it will just keep happening and those dirt bags come to our country and start bullshit here as well so I say that we( the U.S) should back away and when they mess with us we shouls wipe their ass's right out.....we should have done that right after 9/11 or in my opinion or at the very least excuted those even remotely involved already but to be honest with you I think obama is kissing muslim ass somewhere in this whole mess...to the point of offering a reach around (that is an angry statement) and I'm a little tired of the "it's only the radical muslims" defence every time this issue is brought up, this whole crock of shit pisses me off.

Godfather.

Godfather. · June 2014

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/world/meast/iraq-sria-foreign-legion-jihad-threat-to-west/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

so like i said we should back away competely and when they mess with us ...whipe their ass's out, and for cry yie stop letting them into our country.

Godfather.

lukin2006 · June 2014

I haven't read that many post in this thread ... so maybe it's been mentioned already. Is it quite possible that some in the west are quite happy with that region of the world destabilized? Sure is a good excuse to push oil prices up.

fife · June 2014

I can't believe that people are saying that USA should just back away. the only way America should stay away is if the Iraq government says to stay away. America went into that country and destroyed it and now Obama says figure it out yourself? No you broke it you ( by you I mean the country not Obama) fix it as long as the government of Iraq wants you to fix it.

lukin2006 · June 2014

fife said:
I can't believe that people are saying that USA should just back away. the only way America should stay away is if the Iraq government says to stay away. America went into that country and destroyed it and now Obama says figure it out yourself? No you broke it you ( by you I mean the country not Obama) fix it as long as the government of Iraq wants you to fix it.

How do you propose they fix it?

fife · June 2014

lukin2006 said:

fife said:
I can't believe that people are saying that USA should just back away. the only way America should stay away is if the Iraq government says to stay away. America went into that country and destroyed it and now Obama says figure it out yourself? No you broke it you ( by you I mean the country not Obama) fix it as long as the government of Iraq wants you to fix it.
How do you propose they fix it?

I have no idea but happily I don't have to know. again, America should only go in if the Iraq government wants them do. if Iraq tells America stay out of our problems then america stays out. but if Iraq wants them there then america does whatever Iraq wants them to do.

jeffbr · June 2014

We need to wash our hands of it. We have spent too many dollars and lives and have proven to be incapable of bringing any sort of stability. We went there under false pretenses, stayed there too long, were asked to leave, and are now being begged to return. Time to stop chasing this one and admit defeat. We screwed up, we failed in our mission, we don't need to keep failing just to make ourselves feel like we're doing something. Anyone who thinks we should head back there is welcomed to head to your local recruiter and get signed up. But I won't have my kid fighting a bullshit action like this. Too many others have died in vain over Iraq and the middle east in general.

jeffbr · June 2014

Smellyman said:

mattsl1983 said:
And to the idea of "and lose more american lives", are we to sit back and just watch many Iraqs lives get lost and ruined do to our previous actions? I thought most of you people here valued life, what's the right thing, to help those in need, stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves ect ect. But naw, when it comes down to it, we value american lives more than any other lives. What's an american life worth vs an Iraqi life? Is it a 1 = 7?
Had this conversation with a friend who was in the military. there wasn't a number high enough. He said my life is worth thousands more than innocent civilians from another country.

that was a mindfuck to me

I don't fully understand the "value of life" argument. What is the value? Is it a constant or like currencies are there different values assigned to different categories? I know I don't hold all life in the same regard. I would die to protect my kids and family. I would put myself in harms way for friends. I care a little less about people in my area I don't know. Even less about those outside of my community, and unfortunately even less about people a world away. I find it a little strange that someone would value the life of an Iraqi the same as their own mother. If you do, I'd love to hear about it, because that notion is completely foreign to me. They clearly have different value to me. I'm not trying to say there is no value, but if I'm weighing the life of my kid against the life of an Iraqi, my kid wins every time. And that ultimately is how we should decide whether to return. Is returning to Iraq worth the life of your kid, or your sibling?

fife · June 2014

jeffbr said:
We need to wash our hands of it. We have spent too many dollars and lives and have proven to be incapable of bringing any sort of stability. We went there under false pretenses, stayed there too long, were asked to leave, and are now being begged to return. Time to stop chasing this one and admit defeat. We screwed up, we failed in our mission, we don't need to keep failing just to make ourselves feel like we're doing something. Anyone who thinks we should head back there is welcomed to head to your local recruiter and get signed up. But I won't have my kid fighting a bullshit action like this. Too many others have died in vain over Iraq and the middle east in general.

so you really believe that america should do nothing even since they cause alot of this shit? I am not trying to insult people but is that not being selfish? I am not a fan of this war and many other but i do believe that if you broke it you fix it.

Cosmo · June 2014

mattsl1983 said:
Cosmos, yes we took action already. But we pulled out before we should have. And this idea that so many though it was wrong to do in the first place is inncorect. If you look at public support to going to war in Iraq, almost every source (I use almost because I'm sure there might be one out there that is different but I haven't seen it yet) shows a + 70% approval from the public in 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I don't think we should wipe our hands clean. I'm not saying we need to go all out boots on the ground. But we have to do something and offer support. This is kind of our creation.

There is also a much larger global scale this falls on. Credibility, global presence, ect ect. Are we now as "leaders of the free world" going to say yea, sorry about that. Good luck? Pacifism ultimately losses to aggression. Whether we like it our not, this is the world we live in.

...
The thing is... WHEN would be the right time to withdraw?
This shit was going to happen as soon as we cut loose our Iron Grip on Iraq. It would have happened in 2006 or 2012 or today ot tomorrow ot 20 years from now. Senator McCain says we should be in Iraq for 100 years. Guess what happens when we leave in the 101st year? This same fucking shit.
Also, i'll have to look it up... but, I recall the al-Maliki government asking us to leave because our presense was creating tensions. That we were creating tensions because we needed to keep these deep rooted resentments under our thumb.
As for me... I do not want 100 years of U.S. military occupation with our military personel getting picked of 2 or 3 per month for 100 years because I know that as soon as we leave, this shit will happen. The only other options are a never-ending occupation or ordering our military to murder all of all of them.
....
And you know what? We DO owe Iraq and the entire Middle East region an apology for fucking up the place. We fucked up... because we are arrogant fuck ups that believe the oil beneath their homes belongs to us. The reason why those terrorists came over here on September 11, 2001 was because were were constantly fucking around with their shit in their homeland since the 1950s. We act like we are innocent in this shit when we know we are complicent by constantly fucking around with their domestic affairs.
If we are leaders... how about we fucking lead instead of coerce?
...
P.S. Regarding this:
"If you look at public support to going to war in Iraq, almost every source (I use almost because I'm sure there might be one out there that is different but I haven't seen it yet) shows a + 70% approval from the public in 2003. "
Americans continually put 'American Idol' and 'Dancing With The Stars' as the highest rated television shows. We need to factor that into our opinions of going to war based upon political half-truths, innuendos and outright lies and the glorification of war we were bombarded with by our broadcast media. Remember all of the hype and graphics were saw on T.V. leading up the the war? It was sold to us like it was the Super Bowl.

Iraq

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