Hear the fans - Bring Pearl Jam To Israel

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  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    I thought this video might shed some light on all the attention Israel gets compared to other countries in the world
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOIv6owDXYo
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited March 2014
    JK18472 said:

    I thought this video might shed some light on all the attention Israel gets compared to other countries in the world
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOIv6owDXYo

    The reason they're discussing Israel, and not Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Palestine, is because Iran, Saudi Arabia and Palestine are not engaged in a 45 year old illegal occupation, and land grab. Once again, Israel's apologists throw out the anti-Semitism tag because they have nothing else with which to try and justify their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    Sure it is
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JK18472 said:

    Sure it is

    Do you support Israel's illegal occupation?

  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    Have you been to Israel
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Why don't you answer my question? I asked you if you support the illegal occupation. Yes, or no?
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    I don't believe there to be an "illegal occupation"
    you can read all the articles and bring all the quotes you like but is that really a valid way to form an honest opinion? I ask you because you use the phrase propaganda quite a bit. Couldn't one argue that you are reading and being fooled by the same "propaganda" you accuse the other side of using? Is it possible the propaganda machine has worked on you? For years everyone thought the world was flat. Everyone was sure the world was flat. Written maps showed the world was flat. It was written down. If someone said the world was not flat it was easy to show them the error of their ways simply by presenting he written truth. Somewhere along the road we all learned the truth. We all learned the documents and maps were all wrong. We learned the truth because someone went to the edge and didn't fall off. Someone went there and found the truth.
    I ask if you have been to Israel because you have such strong feelings about the state. Almost like you know these things you quote or post to be absolute truths, like you lived it or experienced it. For that passion I commend you. However, if you have not set foot in the land or lived in its towns how can you really know the truth?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited March 2014
    JK18472 said:

    I don't believe there to be an "illegal occupation"
    you can read all the articles and bring all the quotes you like but is that really a valid way to form an honest opinion? I ask you because you use the phrase propaganda quite a bit. Couldn't one argue that you are reading and being fooled by the same "propaganda" you accuse the other side of using? Is it possible the propaganda machine has worked on you? For years everyone thought the world was flat. Everyone was sure the world was flat. Written maps showed the world was flat. It was written down. If someone said the world was not flat it was easy to show them the error of their ways simply by presenting he written truth. Somewhere along the road we all learned the truth. We all learned the documents and maps were all wrong. We learned the truth because someone went to the edge and didn't fall off. Someone went there and found the truth.
    I ask if you have been to Israel because you have such strong feelings about the state. Almost like you know these things you quote or post to be absolute truths, like you lived it or experienced it. For that passion I commend you. However, if you have not set foot in the land or lived in its towns how can you really know the truth?

    I'm not interested in opinions. I'm interested in the facts. Though I understand that the tendency for many Americans is to disregard facts, and indulge in personal opinions and fantasies instead. But I don't give a fuck about that kind of anti-intellectualism. I'm not American. Where I come from, people aren't criticized for supporting what they say with evidence/source material. And I won't apologize for not being an MTV generation half-wit.
    We're not discussing religion here. We're discussing politics and history. Historical and political events are documented by written statements, documentary evidence, and by articles of law. They are also recorded by all of the various Human Rights organizations, such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, and B'Tselem. And one of the reasons these organizations were created was to shine a light on States abuse of power, and human rights abuses, and to document such abuses.
    And I'll continue supporting what I say with the documentary record, and I couldn't care less if you, or anybody else, doesn't like it.

    As to your answer to my question, you say you don't believe there to be an illegal occupation? Well, what you believe is irrelevant. International law clearly states that the occupation is illegal. That's a fact, not an opinion, or a belief.

    So I take it that you 'believe' the Israeli's have a God given right to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians then? And what exactly do you base this right on?

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited March 2014
    JK18472 said:


    I ask if you have been to Israel because you have such strong feelings about the state. Almost like you know these things you quote or post to be absolute truths, like you lived it or experienced it. For that passion I commend you. However, if you have not set foot in the land or lived in its towns how can you really know the truth?

    I didn't live in Nazi Germany, or Apartheid South Africa, either. But that doesn't mean that I, or anybody else, is incapable of understanding and/or criticizing the political situation in either of those places. Your question is just a distraction, and completely irrelevant.
    There are people who have never been to China who know more about Chinese history and politics than me, though I've lived in China for six years. There are also people who can speak far better Chinese than me, though they may never have set foot here before. How can that possibly be, you ask? There's something called education, and books. You should check them out some time.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    You take it wrong.
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    I don't believe in any "ethnic cleansing" at all and I think,if you spent any time in Israel you would see with your own eyes that it is just not happening, no matter how many quotes you bring from people 50 years ago or even articles written today. The truth is the truth, and seeing is believing. You can read all you want and I can tell you over and over again. But nothing will change until you walk the streets, take a bus, or buy groceries there. I have done that. I know what's real. You can show many many graphs it maps with borders, and I'm sure ther are graphs and maps that will show the opposite.
    what about gush katif and the disengagement. Why no peace ?
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    Education and books you say. History is told by the victors. Is it possible first hand knowledge might be more credible than what's been written in a book.
    I'm sure if you read some if the "Textbooks" from 50 years ago you would be offended by what they printed but at the time that's where people became "educated" as you say. With all do respect I can't rely on someone else to tell me the facts when I know the truth because I lived the truth. Surely you trust your own intellect and first hand experience over what someone else is telling you.
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    This is getting a bit too intense for me, so I'll leave it at that. I wish you luck and no hard feelings. If i ever see you at a show I'll buy you a beer. Although we disagree on this, I hope there are no hard feelings. In the end this is a place for fans of an incredible band to get together. We both can agree on that so let's leave it at that.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited March 2014
    JK18472 said:

    You take it wrong.

    I take it wrong? Is that because you 'don't believe there to be an illegal occupation'? International law, along with the entire international community - including the U.S - and every single Human Rights organization, has determined that the occupation is illegal. But you 'don't believe' that it is. How so? Please explain why you think that Israels seizure of the land and it's expulsion of the Palestinians (i.e, ethnic cleansing) is not illegal.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited March 2014
    JK18472 said:

    I don't believe in any "ethnic cleansing" at all and I think,if you spent any time in Israel you would see with your own eyes that it is just not happening, no matter how many quotes you bring from people 50 years ago or even articles written today. The truth is the truth, and seeing is believing. You can read all you want and I can tell you over and over again. But nothing will change until you walk the streets, take a bus, or buy groceries there. I have done that. I know what's real. You can show many many graphs it maps with borders, and I'm sure ther are graphs and maps that will show the opposite.
    what about gush katif and the disengagement. Why no peace ?

    Ah, I get it. If I take a bus, or buy some groceries in Israel, then I'll see that all of the documentary evidence, including written and verbal testaments by Israeli leaders and historians, testifying that ethnic cleansing has occurred, and continues to this day, is just make-believe? The expulsion of between 700-800,000 Palestinians in 1948 didn't happen, right? The bulldozing of Palestinians homes, and the ongoing building of Jewish-only settlements today, isn't happening, right?

    Because that's what you 'believe'.

    Do you live in the Occupied Palestinian territories, or in East Jerusalem? No, of course you don't.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JK18472 said:

    Education and books you say. History is told by the victors. Is it possible first hand knowledge might be more credible than what's been written in a book.

    The Palestinians aren't victors.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    JK18472 said:

    This is getting a bit too intense for me, so I'll leave it at that. I wish you luck and no hard feelings. If i ever see you at a show I'll buy you a beer. Although we disagree on this, I hope there are no hard feelings. In the end this is a place for fans of an incredible band to get together. We both can agree on that so let's leave it at that.

    Fair enough. No hard feelings. Mines a double ;-)


  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    "MTV generation Half-wit" Classic B
    So now Byrnzie you are way more intellectual and elitist then us knuckle dragging Gen X ,Latch key American kids huh???.Stupid Americans.How could we possible understand the depth of your passion and knowledge.Please do tell,What is your country of origin? I really want to know now.
    You do know the band message board you are on is also a by product of that half wit MTV generation.Your boys in PJ came up like the rest of us did.Be thankful for it.
  • JK18472
    JK18472 Posts: 153
    You know brynzie, maybe its the hippy in me but this kinda sucks. Wouldn't it just be much cooler if everyone got along. And I mean everyone everywhere globally. The golden rule treat others as you'd want to be treated. Maybe the next generation will get it right.
    my 11 year old nephew is right now playing fir his school basketball team in Israel against Israeli Arab school. Its not much but maybe its a start.
    and about that beer you got it bro!
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    rr165892 said:

    "MTV generation Half-wit" Classic B
    So now Byrnzie you are way more intellectual and elitist then us knuckle dragging Gen X ,Latch key American kids huh???.Stupid Americans.How could we possible understand the depth of your passion and knowledge.Please do tell,What is your country of origin? I really want to know now.
    You do know the band message board you are on is also a by product of that half wit MTV generation.Your boys in PJ came up like the rest of us did.Be thankful for it.


    I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand? Looks like you are trying to get personal.

    Good debate by the way.


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