The Death Penalty

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Comments

  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    I'm pretty surre I understand what anti-DP people are doing. I just think in some cases, their ideology is misplaced.

    .......


    ....he forfeited his right to life.....

    if you truly understand it, then stop saying I/we are defending "the sick and depraved". I am not telling you you are morally inferior to me, so I expect the same respect.

    it is my belief that it is up to no one to decide who forfeits a life and who doesn't. to me it's as simple as that, and I don't believe that will ever change.

    You might not be suggesting I am morally inferior to you... but some others have painted proponents of the death penalty as such- if not... then cavemen (sick, bloodthirsty, vengeful, etc.). And this is what I alluded to earlier: if you choose to ignore comments that are disrespectful to one side of the argument (with silence)... then i don't think it is fair to be vocal towards the counter-comments they provoke.

    If civility and respect is what you expect on this forum then demand it from all sides of the issue- not just the one opposing your position.

    I'll repeat myself stating that such dialogue amounts to nothing more than mud-slinging. But given the amount of time and energy I have contributed to this thread, I would hope you could understand the need to preserve my (and others) dignity when charged as nothing more than a buffoon.

    As for your last statement... I agree somewhat. It wasn't up to Olson to decide who lived and who died; yet he still decided. Given such... he made the playing field. It makes no sense to me that we would afford him the rights he blatantly abused and ignored.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    edited September 2013
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    You might not be suggesting I am morally inferior to you... but some others have painted proponents of the death penalty as such- if not... then cavemen (sick, bloodthirsty, vengeful, etc.). And this is what I alluded to earlier: if you choose to ignore comments that are disrespectful to one side of the argument (with silence)... then i don't think it is fair to be vocal towards the counter-comments they provoke.

    If civility and respect is what you expect on this forum then demand it from all sides of the issue- not just the one opposing your position.

    I'll repeat myself stating that such dialogue amounts to nothing more than mud-slinging. But given the amount of time and energy I have contributed to this thread, I would hope you could understand the need to preserve my (and others) dignity when charged as nothing more than a buffoon.

    interesting position.

    you attack me for apparently not defending you, when in fact I actually did speak out about that pages ago (maybe not about you specifically, but about calling pro-DP people names-I'm not going to search through 82 pages to find it though). didn't think it was really my responsibility to defend you when you are completely capable of doing so yourself.

    I'm not the forum police. don't expect me to be. I'm not here 24/7. If I see a comment I disagree with, I'll comment on it. Sometimes you also don't want to engage with someone who is obviously looking for an argument. I'll call someone (like you) on something because I respect you, not the opposite.
    Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    pdalowsky wrote:
    The case in India will be of interest tomorrow when the world watches that sentencing.

    The parents of that young lady are demanding the death penalty.......

    the 4 accused are found guilty, but the law when they committed the crimes did not provide for death, it has been changed since their brutal attack, so should that option even be available?

    discuss

    I guess it depends on what one feels is justice, PD.

    What is justice for such a barbaric crime? You have stated that the law has been changed since their brutal attack... so, I'm curious to know whether or not this is so because the law feels that the punishment in case does not meet the crime?

    They tricked the couple on to the bus and the attackers beat the friend into submission, held down the woman and repeatedly raped her. They penetrated her with a metal rod, causing severe internal injuries that led to her death two weeks later.

    The father, no doubtedly tortured by the story and pained by his daughter's departure from the earth and the circumstances in which she was to leave it, has been vocal for what he wishes to see in terms of justice: "For what happened with her, these brutes must be hanged," he told reporters as he left home for the courthouse. "Nothing but the death penalty is acceptable to us."

    Let him have his way.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013 ... rdict.html
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    You might not be suggesting I am morally inferior to you... but some others have painted proponents of the death penalty as such- if not... then cavemen (sick, bloodthirsty, vengeful, etc.). And this is what I alluded to earlier: if you choose to ignore comments that are disrespectful to one side of the argument (with silence)... then i don't think it is fair to be vocal towards the counter-comments they provoke.

    If civility and respect is what you expect on this forum then demand it from all sides of the issue- not just the one opposing your position.

    I'll repeat myself stating that such dialogue amounts to nothing more than mud-slinging. But given the amount of time and energy I have contributed to this thread, I would hope you could understand the need to preserve my (and others) dignity when charged as nothing more than a buffoon.

    interesting position.

    you attack me for apparently not defending you, when in fact I actually did speak out about that pages ago (maybe not about you specifically, but about calling pro-DP people names-I'm not going to search through 82 pages to find it though). didn't think it was really my responsibility to defend you when you are completely capable of doing so yourself.

    I'm not the forum police. don't expect me to be. I'm not here 24/7. If I see a comment I disagree with, I'll comment on it. Sometimes you also don't want to engage with someone who is obviously looking for an argument.

    I never attacked you and I wasn't looking for you to defend me. I pointed out the fact that I was engaged with Callen when you chimed in protesting things I had written in response to some pretty unflattering remarks... while choosing to leave the 'barbaric caveman' comments unaddressed. This is the reality isn't it?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    I never attacked you and I wasn't looking for you to defend me. I pointed out the fact that I was engaged with Callen when you chimed in protesting things I had written in response to some pretty unflattering remarks... while choosing to leave the 'barbaric caveman' comments unaddressed. This is the reality isn't it?


    well, if that's your reality, I guess I'll just leave you to it.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    JimmyV wrote:
    Has anyone ever looked down from a high horse and convinced anyone else of anything at all?
    Probably not but when you strip down DP to its core its a pretty nasty subject and in a subject such as this, killing and murder...both by the criminal as well as sanctioned by "the people" being blunt can be a means of communication. We justify our beleifs and in doing so sometimes miss the core of the matter. Death and playing GOD.

    I don't though conciously belittle and or look down from my horse but its a very emotional topic as proven by both sides of this argument and as such, sometimes we aren't as civil as we should be. I'm guilty. I respect those on this board and respect more those that are in the minority. Most humans cower in the corner and don't allow others views to interfer with their realities and truths. We on the train are different, we want to be provoked, challenged. Would have a beer with any of you. We'd have actual conversations.

    But please understand, I believe we haven't moved forward as a society when we follow the same tactics as the Inca's or fundementalist muslims on punishment. We have to rise above killing as a means of resolution. We have to break the cycle of violence and that starts from the top...from what society says is okay. I'm rambling and will cease for now.

    Peace

    Callen
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    I never attacked you and I wasn't looking for you to defend me. I pointed out the fact that I was engaged with Callen when you chimed in protesting things I had written in response to some pretty unflattering remarks... while choosing to leave the 'barbaric caveman' comments unaddressed. This is the reality isn't it?


    well, if that's your reality, I guess I'll just leave you to it.

    Well then explain to me what I am missing here?

    In response to Blood and vengeance such wonderful human qualities... I prefaced two statements (one of which you have taken offence to) with: You wish to contribute in this capacity? Okay... I'll offer this

    I think the preface would stand alone as a clarification as to where I'm coming from offering what I did, but I also called the 'discussion' a mud-slinging affair. You might not have liked what I was saying, but I didn't like what was offered initially. And, it at least appeared that you chose to ignore the intial slur while focussing on the response. Coincidently, the intial slur that wasn't addressed lies on the side of the fence that you argue for.

    What's a guy to think?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pdalowsky
    pdalowsky Doncaster,UK Posts: 15,214
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    pdalowsky wrote:
    The case in India will be of interest tomorrow when the world watches that sentencing.

    The parents of that young lady are demanding the death penalty.......

    the 4 accused are found guilty, but the law when they committed the crimes did not provide for death, it has been changed since their brutal attack, so should that option even be available?

    discuss

    I guess it depends on what one feels is justice, PD.

    What is justice for such a barbaric crime? You have stated that the law has been changed since their brutal attack... so, I'm curious to know whether or not this is so because the law feels that the punishment in case does not meet the crime?

    They tricked the couple on to the bus and the attackers beat the friend into submission, held down the woman and repeatedly raped her. They penetrated her with a metal rod, causing severe internal injuries that led to her death two weeks later.

    The father, no doubtedly tortured by the story and pained by his daughter's departure from the earth and the circumstances in which she was to leave it, has been vocal for what he wishes to see in terms of justice: "For what happened with her, these brutes must be hanged," he told reporters as he left home for the courthouse. "Nothing but the death penalty is acceptable to us."

    Let him have his way.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013 ... rdict.html

    Good points,

    but on reading up on the legal system in India I wouldn't be convinced of its integrity.

    There is every chance and likelihood that these 4 men did what they are accused of. But there is that shadow of doubt, allegations of torture before confessions were forthcoming, denials of guilt now, and a penalty being sought that didn't exist for that crime at the time it was committed.

    The crime was sickening, and as always if it had been inflicted on any of my family I am certain I would feel very differently, but I wouldn't think the DP should be considered on this case. After all, I know the young lady died, and that is tragic especially in the circumstances, however was there any intention to kill?

    These men were animals, and they should never ever see freedom again, but I think the DP would be a huge mistake. Although I expect that's exactly what will be handed down.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    pdalowsky wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    pdalowsky wrote:
    The case in India will be of interest tomorrow when the world watches that sentencing.

    The parents of that young lady are demanding the death penalty.......

    the 4 accused are found guilty, but the law when they committed the crimes did not provide for death, it has been changed since their brutal attack, so should that option even be available?

    discuss

    I guess it depends on what one feels is justice, PD.

    What is justice for such a barbaric crime? You have stated that the law has been changed since their brutal attack... so, I'm curious to know whether or not this is so because the law feels that the punishment in case does not meet the crime?

    They tricked the couple on to the bus and the attackers beat the friend into submission, held down the woman and repeatedly raped her. They penetrated her with a metal rod, causing severe internal injuries that led to her death two weeks later.

    The father, no doubtedly tortured by the story and pained by his daughter's departure from the earth and the circumstances in which she was to leave it, has been vocal for what he wishes to see in terms of justice: "For what happened with her, these brutes must be hanged," he told reporters as he left home for the courthouse. "Nothing but the death penalty is acceptable to us."

    Let him have his way.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013 ... rdict.html

    Good points,

    but on reading up on the legal system in India I wouldn't be convinced of its integrity.

    There is every chance and likelihood that these 4 men did what they are accused of. But there is that shadow of doubt, allegations of torture before confessions were forthcoming, denials of guilt now, and a penalty being sought that didn't exist for that crime at the time it was committed.

    The crime was sickening, and as always if it had been inflicted on any of my family I am certain I would feel very differently, but I wouldn't think the DP should be considered on this case. After all, I know the young lady died, and that is tragic especially in the circumstances, however was there any intention to kill?

    These men were animals, and they should never ever see freedom again, but I think the DP would be a huge mistake. Although I expect that's exactly what will be handed down.

    Key phrase highlighted in blue.

    It's simply too easy to weigh in with no personal investment and from the bar stool. The family (and country for that matter) is outraged and they seek a death sentence for the kidnapping, bondage, torture and murder of the young woman. For me... these characteristics relevant to the nature of the crime warrant the death penalty.

    The crime was brutal. These men are animals (not to be too offensive to animals) and we seem to have no problem placing animals down when they behave poorly.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    callen wrote:
    JimmyV wrote:
    Has anyone ever looked down from a high horse and convinced anyone else of anything at all?
    Probably not but when you strip down DP to its core its a pretty nasty subject and in a subject such as this, killing and murder...both by the criminal as well as sanctioned by "the people" being blunt can be a means of communication. We justify our beleifs and in doing so sometimes miss the core of the matter. Death and playing GOD.

    I don't though conciously belittle and or look down from my horse but its a very emotional topic as proven by both sides of this argument and as such, sometimes we aren't as civil as we should be. I'm guilty. I respect those on this board and respect more those that are in the minority. Most humans cower in the corner and don't allow others views to interfer with their realities and truths. We on the train are different, we want to be provoked, challenged. Would have a beer with any of you. We'd have actual conversations.

    But please understand, I believe we haven't moved forward as a society when we follow the same tactics as the Inca's or fundementalist muslims on punishment. We have to rise above killing as a means of resolution. We have to break the cycle of violence and that starts from the top...from what society says is okay. I'm rambling and will cease for now.

    Peace

    Callen

    A much less confrontational post that reflects your values without crapping on other people's here, Callen. Thanks for making this effort.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pdalowsky
    pdalowsky Doncaster,UK Posts: 15,214
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    Key phrase highlighted in blue.

    It's simply too easy to weigh in with no personal investment and from the bar stool. The family (and country for that matter) is outraged and they seek a death sentence for the kidnapping, bondage, torture and murder of the young woman. For me... these characteristics relevant to the nature of the crime warrant the death penalty.

    The crime was brutal. These men are animals (not to be too offensive to animals) and we seem to have no problem placing animals down when they behave poorly.


    just out of interest, do you think there should be an intention to kill and commit murder to warrant the death sentence?

    Im just of the belief that may have been missing in this case. Although I accept what they are alleged to have done with that metal bar is never going to produce a fairy tale ending.

    If she had survived and been disabled by the attack leading to a much less privileged life would the DP still be suitable?

    I know what you are saying about the subjectivity I applied which you highlighted, however I move to use those comments for one reason only. If I found myself in that position, I know I would never react rationally, I couldn't even function normally, so I know my reactions would be far from predictable........and that wouldn't be a good platform to work from in determining such an issue. I know my emotional limits, and that would far surpass those and probably challenge my mental capacity for as long as I lived.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    pdalowsky wrote:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    Key phrase highlighted in blue.

    It's simply too easy to weigh in with no personal investment and from the bar stool. The family (and country for that matter) is outraged and they seek a death sentence for the kidnapping, bondage, torture and murder of the young woman. For me... these characteristics relevant to the nature of the crime warrant the death penalty.

    The crime was brutal. These men are animals (not to be too offensive to animals) and we seem to have no problem placing animals down when they behave poorly.


    just out of interest, do you think there should be an intention to kill and commit murder to warrant the death sentence?

    Im just of the belief that may have been missing in this case. Although I accept what they are alleged to have done with that metal bar is never going to produce a fairy tale ending.

    If she had survived and been disabled by the attack leading to a much less privileged life would the DP still be suitable?

    I know what you are saying about the subjectivity I applied which you highlighted, however I move to use those comments for one reason only. If I found myself in that position, I know I would never react rationally, I couldn't even function normally, so I know my reactions would be far from predictable........and that wouldn't be a good platform to work from in determining such an issue. I know my emotional limits, and that would far surpass those and probably challenge my mental capacity for as long as I lived.

    For simply raping and destroying her womb... prison would have to suffice. For erasing her consciousness from the earth... more.

    Interesting question regarding intent. I think this went very badly, but how could it not? It needs to be a case by case review before deciding that death should serve as justice. As I mentioned before, the variables in this one lead me to believe that a death sentence is warranted.

    In the event where a robber whacks a guy over the head intending to take his wallet, but does so too hard and kills him... prison would suffice. Ramming a metal bar forcefully into a woman while laughing and high fiving... and ultimately killing her is a different matter- regardless of intent.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • pdalowsky
    pdalowsky Doncaster,UK Posts: 15,214
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

    Key phrase highlighted in blue.

    It's simply too easy to weigh in with no personal investment and from the bar stool. The family (and country for that matter) is outraged and they seek a death sentence for the kidnapping, bondage, torture and murder of the young woman. For me... these characteristics relevant to the nature of the crime warrant the death penalty.

    The crime was brutal. These men are animals (not to be too offensive to animals) and we seem to have no problem placing animals down when they behave poorly.


    just out of interest, do you think there should be an intention to kill and commit murder to warrant the death sentence?

    Im just of the belief that may have been missing in this case. Although I accept what they are alleged to have done with that metal bar is never going to produce a fairy tale ending.

    If she had survived and been disabled by the attack leading to a much less privileged life would the DP still be suitable?

    I know what you are saying about the subjectivity I applied which you highlighted, however I move to use those comments for one reason only. If I found myself in that position, I know I would never react rationally, I couldn't even function normally, so I know my reactions would be far from predictable........and that wouldn't be a good platform to work from in determining such an issue. I know my emotional limits, and that would far surpass those and probably challenge my mental capacity for as long as I lived.[/quote]

    For simply raping and destroying her womb... prison would have to suffice. For erasing her consciousness from the earth... more.

    Interesting question regarding intent. I think this went very badly, but how could it not? It needs to be a case by case review before deciding that death should serve as justice. As I mentioned before, the variables in this one lead me to believe that a death sentence is warranted.

    In the event where a robber whacks a guy over the head intending to take his wallet, but does so too hard and kills him... prison would suffice. Ramming a metal bar forcefully into a woman while laughing and high fiving... and ultimately killing her is a different matter- regardless of intent.[/quote]

    We are agreed on one thing anyway, these men are scum. bottom of the barrel filth, and the punishment they receive has to be a harsh one.

    as im not convinced that they ever set out to murder that day, I couldn't support any death penalty (my position on the DP is well documented in this thread), however I certainly understand why many would push for it.

    I don't think anyone can comprehend that ladies terror during that attack.....she was disregarded throughout it at all as trivial and unimportant and an object of sexual desire. I haven't read the closer details of the attack, I didn't even know they were high fiving throughout or laughing, but that wouldn't necessarily mean the DP is just.....it just means they are depraved imbeciles, who have been raised in a country where women are largely disregarded as being below men, as commodities, and expendable.....I cannot help but think that in this situation - whilst the world is looking on outraged - India are going to try to make a statement and make an example out of these men.

    They are appalling, but its more troubling to learn that there is an attack involving brutal gang rape reported every single day.....many suspected not reported, and through various levels of corrupt authorities and abuses of power many are swept away. This one hit the news, and for that reason they may end up swinging.

    Surely India have a responsibility to stand up and start an era of change, starting out at primary education and working equality into their society......
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Travis Baumgartner pleads guilty in deadly Edmonton shootings

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... tarts.html

    and POS
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Travis Baumgartner pleads guilty in deadly Edmonton shootings

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... tarts.html

    and POS

    Calling Baumgartner’s actions “a treacherous betrayal of trust,” the Crown submitted a joint request with the defence that Baumgartner be sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 40 years.

    If that sentence is approved, it would set a precedent under legislation approved in 2011 preventing sentence discounts for multiple murders, and would be the harshest sentence in Canada since Arthur Lucas was executed in 1962.

    Don't judge him too harshly. The guy was broke and needed some cash. We can call him stupid though. I mean... how did he ever think he would get away with such a crime? Of course he didn't and now a bunch of people are dead.

    But boy oh boy... don't ever commit a triple homicide in Canada because if you do... 40 years (if that). This guy might have to spend 40 years until he's 63 before he can get out and golf again. I couldn't imagine.

    I also couldn't imagine my colleague placing a gun to my head and blowing my face off either, but why focus on that?

    40 years. Pffft.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    40 years before he can even apply for parole for pleading guilty is actually an amazing feat by the Crown.

    this fucker will never get out.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    40 years before he can even apply for parole for pleading guilty is actually an amazing feat by the Crown.

    this fucker will never get out.

    What you write is true. This guy got more than Pickton or Olson.

    As for your last statement... can you be certain?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    of course I can't be certain. I don't know the stats on triple murderers getting parole, but I highly doubt he ever will.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Was that not just a crown recommendation ... The judge hasn't handed down the decision. Either way we will have to house, feed them, medical, dental for the next 40 years. Meanwhile good hard working and seniors continue to get shafted ... I'd rather take the thousands spent of this POS and spend it on worthwhile citizens.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    of course I can't be certain. I don't know the stats on triple murderers getting parole, but I highly doubt he ever will.

    Don't be surprised if it happens though. We've got people working really hard at convincing parole boards that violent offenders are not violent anymore and deserve another chance. Every one of them has their personal set of advocates and we have some gullible/weak members that sit on parole boards.
    "My brain's a good brain!"

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