Religion of Peace shouts “ALLAHU AKBAR”

Sullivan responds to Glenn Greenwald:

Greenwald responds to my latest post. He protests:

That I “legitimated” the London attack or argued it was a “legitimate protest” is as obvious a fabrication as it gets. Not only did I argue no such thing, and not only did I say the exact opposite of what Sullivan and others falsely attribute to me, but I expressly repudiated - in advance – the very claims they try to impose on me. Even vociferous critics of what I wrote, writing in neocon venues, understood this point (“I do find myself wanting to agree with Greenwald in arguing that this is an atrocious murder rather than an act of terror”).

I don’t fabricate things. Look at this direct quote:

“[T]he term [terrorism] at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.”

Here’s my objection: the West kills “Muslims”; the Jihadists target “states.” That framing, in the direct wake of an act of religious barbarism, actually places Jihadists on a higher moral plane than the West. We’re killing people of a different faith on purpose; they’re just protesting by killing the soldiers who murder them. Maybe Glenn didn’t mean for it to come out that way. But it did.

And yes, I can see (just) how an off-duty soldier might qualify as a non-civilian, although we don’t yet fully know the details of the plot, and therefore complicate the “terror” label. That’s a point worth considering. I also conceded that a defense of the killing as blowback was involved here. So we’re not that far apart on those matters.

But I strongly resist the idea that the West has attempted to kill Muslims in the way that Jihadists have killed so many Muslims and infidels, even though civilian casualties have been a horrifying fact of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the drone wars now winding down. We are seeking to defend ourselves from theocratic mass murderers after an unprovoked attack; they are seeking the triumph of their version of Islam, by any means, including mass murder. The US has not killed for religious reasons; the Jihadists kill solely for religious reasons, which include the sacrosanct nature of religiously-demarcated territory. That includes the Woolwich beheading, as the full context shows. The Jihadist was not defending the “land” he lives in. He is a British-born convert to a murderous form of Sunni Islam (which detests and seeks to murder Shiite infidels as much as any non-Muslims). He is, in fact, attacking his own land, its soldiers and its democratic norms. He wants to turn Britain into a Sharia-Islamist state. And he’s not shy about saying so. That equation of his land with, say, Pakistan, is a religious belief, not an objective fact.

Then there are the fabrications from Glenn. I “continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism” by the US. That accusation is just bizarre, given my record over the last several years, my support for withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, my opposition to new wars in Libya and Syria, my long campaign against torture, and on and on. But, yes, I do believe we are in a civilizational war, as I wrote just after 9/11.
It is a war between violent Jihadist theocracy and the Western tradition of separation between church and state. It is a war we did not seek and it is a war we are trying to end. For the Islamists, in contrast, this war is for ever – until their version of theocracy is triumphant. And the butchers of Woolwich are quite clear about their goals: the imposition of Sharia law and the end of democracy in Britain, their actual native land. For them to assume other countries as “their land” is an obvious sign that what lies behind this is not strategic blowback only – it is a theology of theocracy.

Norm Geras is not as blinkered:

f a man says that he’s butchered someone on the street because of… Afghanistan, it is then true, if he is not lying or self-deceived, that somewhere in the causal chain leading up to that murderous act Western intervention against Al-Qaida and the Taliban has played some part in bringing the atrocity about. But it is by no means a sufficient explanation, as you can quickly ascertain by starting to count up in your head all those angered or upset about Western intervention who haven’t butchered anybody. At the same time, you can start to compute how many people responsible for jihadist terrorism today not only cite Afghanistan and/or Iraq but frame the reference within the terms of an Islamist ideology according to which the slaughter of innocents is an apt response to Western foreign policy. That’s a very large number of people. It is also true, of course, that not all Islamists commit terrorist murder, so this isn’t a complete explanation either, but you’d think the ideological factor should have some prominence.

A rational explanation of these acts is therefore available that places central emphasis on its ideological causes, and doesn’t just parrot what the jihadists themselves say. And those leftists and liberals (verkrappt section) who always draw attention towards what the killers say and away from the belief system that inspires them are not just appealing to rational explanation, they are offering a very particular type of skewed ‘explanation’ that obscures a crucial element of the picture.

I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11. I can see why the latter can spawn the former. I cannot see how they are both morally equivalent.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/ ... ain-ctd-4/

mickeyrat wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

I'm confused.


What does the thread title mean?

still waiting to get my confusion cleared up here.

The two killers were chanting it.
I think it means Allah is the greatest.

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

We are seeking to defend ourselves from theocratic mass murderers after an unprovoked attack

Because 9/11 was year zero, right?

JimmyV wrote:

It is a war we did not seek and it is a war we are trying to end.

Too funny. Anyone seen Iraq's WMD's yet?

JimmyV wrote:

I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11.

Except he did nothing of the sort, but simply questioned why we in the West think it's o.k for us to wreak massive violence on foreign countries, and then act surprised when someone, somewhere retaliates. Also, how was invading Iraq or Afghanistan 'self-defense'? Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked America. And top government advisers stated clearly before the invasion of Afghanistan that the invasion would serve to increase the threat of terrorism against Americans at home and abroad.


Anyway, I'm sure Glenn Greenwald will respond to Andrew Sullivan in due course.

And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.

Like you cut and pasted the above article, you mean? Minus the articles headline, or date, or quotation marks - why don't you clean your own fucking post up?

Was the link at the bottom of the "fucking post" too hard to find?

badbrains wrote:

hedonist wrote:

I did a quick search and another meaning is "Allah is greater".

Which is fine. A rose by any other name, yada yada.

I don't care which god someone loves. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in god, or (like me) just doesn't know. We all walk our own roads.

Killing in the name of, though? I can't conceive of any god, any religion, supporting such hatred.

If Allah would be proud of the actions of those two fuckers...that's not really god-like in my book.

With an emphatic NO, Allah WON'T BE PROUD of what these 2 fucktards did. Idk who's Allah these or any fanatics worship but the Allah I grew up with ISN'T anything they believe. I was taught that any man/woman who killed anyone would be punished as if they had killed all of humanity, BY GOD. Not by me, you or any other person but by god. So ya, it fucken sux that we have a few fucktards who have hijacked our religion. But at least I can see and believe as I choose to.

Thanks for posting badbrains and shedding some insight on this horrifying incident and from a Muslim point of view and how it affects you as a true Muslim and as a consequence your fellow believers in your faith and not the "fucktards" that inhabit all faiths and relgions; remember Hitler was a committed Christian...I hope one day that all the true believers in religion will unite against the zealots within their religions that twist and destroy and then manipulate their own religions to their own evil ends, and are able to recognise the right to each others divinity. I should'nt really comment as I am a commited atheist and do not feel qualified to comment on these religious issues, especially as I have said in the past on this forum that I would never again speak on religious issues, but why not...eveyone else seems to have a very strong opinion...qualified or not... :fp:

I wonder who will jump in 1st to say it is not a religious issue...hmmmmm

Booyah !

KM228407 wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

mickeyrat wrote:

I'm confused.


What does the thread title mean?

still waiting to get my confusion cleared up here.

The two killers were chanting it.
I think it means Allah is the greatest.

OOOOHHHHHHHH so it was two humans shouting this and not an ENTIRE RELIGION? gotcha.

aerial wrote:

did anyone ever hear about this?...happened in Feb.....

Mainstream Media Ignores Beheading Deaths of 2 Christians In New Jersey
http://dcxposed.com/2013/02/26/mainstream-media-ignores-beheading-deaths-of-2-christians-in-new-jersey-2/

Less than 60 seconds of online research found numerous references to the man killing the 2 men with gunshots...in the so called mainstream media

do some research before you post a link from an unreliable and clearly biased website

:fp: