No, it isn't. A brother who "revenges" his brother's murder? Yes, that is a revenge killing. A state that puts to death a criminal who has been tried, convicted of a horrific crime, allowed to exhaust all appeals and been given due course of law? That is not a revenge killing. Is incarceration revenge?
Incarceration is a measure of revenge. I can never understand why some insist that justice and revenge are completely different from each other. Here's a definition for justice (from Merriam-webster): the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments.
A consequence should match the crime. Of course, nobody here is suggesting striking anyone down with a vehicle and following up with a beheading at the hands of a couple of losers on the pavement. But the sheer brutality of what has prompted this thread demands a little more than incarceration alongside drunk drivers, thieves and tax evaders for these savages. No?
No, it isn't. A brother who "revenges" his brother's murder? Yes, that is a revenge killing. A state that puts to death a criminal who has been tried, convicted of a horrific crime, allowed to exhaust all appeals and been given due course of law? That is not a revenge killing.
Yes it is. Putting someone to death as punishment for one or more of their past actions is an act of vengeance.
Brutally, from a young man with his life ahead of him
They cut his head off
Matters not whether this was religious or political
Have true empathy and put yourself in this victims shoes
If he could have been told this will happen, what do you think he would wish upon the suspects?
What would you want?
As a society, we learn from our actions and decisions
What do we learn when we let murderers live?
The whole world will be different soon... - EV
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
^^^^^i know and it took the police 30 minutes to arrive :fp: :fp:
Misinformation: "We first received a 999 call from the public at 14:20hrs stating a man was being attacked, further 999 calls stated that the attackers were in possession of a gun. We had officers at the scene within 9 minutes of receiving that first 999 call. Once that information about a gun or guns being present was known, firearms officers were assigned at 14:24hrs. Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned, 14 minutes after the first call to the Met."
All 'over and done with' within 14 minutes of first call from public.....
But even nine minutes?!?! Is that average response time in London? Not that the police were going to be able to save this poor guy but what if these two monsters kept hacking away at others?
I realize it's impossible for you to view things through anything other than star-spangled sunglasses, but It wasn't a religious act, it was a political act. Not that murder is something to justify, but we murder people in foreign countries every day, so we shouldn't act surprised when we get a little blow back, from a nutjob or otherwise.
Sorry to interject, but by what measure was this not a religiously motivated act? Why do we even flirt with the idea of doubting it when the men in question are screaming Allah's name as they try to behead someone in public with butchers' knives and meat cleavers? - an act, incidentally, which is anything but a regular occurrence, much less in Woolwich.
How many times will these people have to tell us directly that their personal line of communication with the creator of the universe has told them to kill people before we believe them?
It's not for their benefit, it's for ours so we can clearly define the differnce between their action and our own.
But the differences between our actions and their own are clearly defined. We grant them a trial by a jury of their peers, representation, appeals, etc. Their attorneys are free to appeal for clemency right up until the moment the sentence is carried out. Their victims are granted none of that.
But the differences between our actions and their own are clearly defined. We grant them a trial by a jury of their peers, representation, appeals, etc. Their attorneys are free to appeal for clemency right up until the moment the sentence is carried out. Their victims are granted none of that.
Legal procedures aside, the situations are morally the same, people killing because in some way they have convinced themselves that they are justified to do so.
But the differences between our actions and their own are clearly defined. We grant them a trial by a jury of their peers, representation, appeals, etc. Their attorneys are free to appeal for clemency right up until the moment the sentence is carried out. Their victims are granted none of that.
Legal procedures aside, the situations are morally the same, people killing because in some way they have convinced themselves that they are justified to do so.
1) The legal procedures are an awfully large difference to just put aside.
2) Hard to gauge the criminal mind of course but I question how many murderers kill because they believe they are justified to. I think they kill for things they want like wealth, out of hate, or because they think they can get away with it more often than not.
That said, the perpetrators who committed the crime in this thread I'm sure did feel they were justified. But they don't get to set the bar for what is and what is not justified.
^^^^^i know and it took the police 30 minutes to arrive :fp: :fp:
Misinformation: "We first received a 999 call from the public at 14:20hrs stating a man was being attacked, further 999 calls stated that the attackers were in possession of a gun. We had officers at the scene within 9 minutes of receiving that first 999 call. Once that information about a gun or guns being present was known, firearms officers were assigned at 14:24hrs. Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned, 14 minutes after the first call to the Met."
All 'over and done with' within 14 minutes of first call from public.....
But even nine minutes?!?! Is that average response time in London? Not that the police were going to be able to save this poor guy but what if these two monsters kept hacking away at others?
I did get that wrong.I was going by the the guy on the news clip, who I'm sure felt nine minutes was more like thirty!
However considering it was central London next to an armed army barracks I feel even nine minutes is a bloody long time to wait.
We potentially learn forgiveness....which is an incredibly freeing thing to learn.
Not every murderer deserves forgiveness.
You're right - not ever murderer deserves forgiveness. Heck, probably NONE of them deserve it.
BUT...I was talking about what we could learn from it.
I hear you and perhaps there is something to be learned from it. But there are extreme cases, like this one, when the ultimate punishment should be handed down. These two, for sure, should not be forgiven.
It's not for their benefit, it's for ours so we can clearly define the differnce between their action and our own.
Who cares about 'us'?
We are the furthest removed from the situation. What about thesurvivors and the victim? They are the key stakeholders here. With exceptions, I'm pretty sure justice that serves the magnitude of the crime is desired.
2) Hard to gauge the criminal mind of course but I question how many murderers kill because they believe they are justified to. I think they kill for things they want like wealth, out of hate, or because they think they can get away with it more often than not.
Wealth, hate, getting away with it, they can all be justifications in the minds of some.
We are the furthest removed from the situation. What about thesurvivors and the victim? They are the key stakeholders here. With exceptions, I'm pretty sure justice that serves the magnitude of the crime is desired.
'Us' being civilised people who don't go around killing people. You don't think that the use of the death penalty can have an effect on social identity?
Religion and terrorism had nothing at all to do with this tragic event. I’ve seen zero evidence where such claims could be made.
And Michael Moore is a saint. His logic on making this a justifiable act … even though the “suspects” are not from the middle east … is brilliant. He should get an award or something.
Whew. I’m glad we got this all clear. I’m going to go eat some frogurt now.
I realize it's impossible for you to view things through anything other than star-spangled sunglasses, but It wasn't a religious act, it was a political act. Not that murder is something to justify, but we murder people in foreign countries every day, so we shouldn't act surprised when we get a little blow back, from a nutjob or otherwise.
You're preaching to the choir. When all the facts come out, we will be exonerated by those who disagreed with our opinion.
I hear you and perhaps there is something to be learned from it. But there are extreme cases, like this one, when the ultimate punishment should be handed down. These two, for sure, should not be forgiven.
We'll just agree to disagree. I think people should ALWAYS strive to find a way to forgive and be at peace with the situation. If you hold onto the anger and bitterness, you're just perpetuating the crime and letting the criminal do even more damage.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Im usually against the death penalty. Well, how it operates in the USA, im 100% against it.
But the discussion that is going on here - you have to ask yourself -- How did this evolve into wanting the attackers dead? Some feel thats what they deserve. Some feel its revenge. Some feel its simply the best way to deal with them. But many are speaking out of emotions. It was a sick, horrifying, and disgusting act. Personally, I dont think it solves anything to murder them. I might feel differently if it was me or my family victimized, but we must think as a collective unit, and not single out with emotion...just my opinion.
Again it was a sick act, committed by sick fucks -- But so is the way the death penalty is handed out in some cases.
I just say its too bad the cops didnt waste them on the spot. Its crazy to see some of the pictures of the attackers walking around afterwards, all bloody, still holding knives. I think the cops did shoot them up pretty good from what I hear though...
I just say its too bad the cops didnt waste them on the spot. Its crazy to see some of the pictures of the attackers walking around afterwards, all bloody, still holding knives. I think the cops did shoot them up pretty good from what I hear though...
I'm pretty convinced that they wanted to be shot, since they opened fire on the Police, that way they would have been martyrs.
1) The legal procedures are an awfully large difference to just put aside.
They're not relevant to the point I'm making, it's a moral argument.
I think by dismissing the legal procedures it becomes much easier to argue the death penalty is immoral. I think they are very relevant and should not be forgotten in this discussion.
2) Hard to gauge the criminal mind of course but I question how many murderers kill because they believe they are justified to. I think they kill for things they want like wealth, out of hate, or because they think they can get away with it more often than not.
Wealth, hate, getting away with it, they can all be justifications in the minds of some.
They can all be reasons. Not sure they can all be justifications. Not sure they are the same thing.
But they don't get to set the bar for what is and what is not justified.
Agreed, but then I don't think we have that right either when it comes down to choosing whether someone lives or dies.
Again, this is why I think the legalities are important. We don't have the right to decide whether the accused lives or dies. We do have the right to decide whether the convicted lives or dies.
I think by dismissing the legal procedures it becomes much easier to argue the death penalty is immoral. I think they are very relevant and should not be forgotten in this discussion.
I think by focussing on legal procedures it is easy to direct attention away from the fundamental human aspect of what is actually being proposed - the premeditated ending of a life.
Again, this is why I think the legalities are important. We don't have the right to decide whether the accused lives or dies. We do have the right to decide whether the convicted lives or dies.
Why do we have that right? See, the perpetrators of this crime believed they were justified in their actions because people are dying in the middle east all the time at the hands of western nations.
I found this site quite interesting: http://www.mvfr.org/ it's a community of family members of murder victims who oppose the death penalty.
To see the blood of their son on the hands of his murderer in the footage where said murdering fuck demanded he be filmed...it'd break my heart and then some. Sort of does already, and I'm an outsider.
Anyone can feel "justified" in their actions; doesn't mean that's actually justice. Sometimes it's just a fucked up response.
(and I do get the irony / conflict in wanting that same justice applied to those supposed "avengers")
I realize it's impossible for you to view things through anything other than star-spangled sunglasses, but It wasn't a religious act, it was a political act. Not that murder is something to justify, but we murder people in foreign countries every day, so we shouldn't act surprised when we get a little blow back, from a nutjob or otherwise.
Sorry to interject, but by what measure was this not a religiously motivated act? Why do we even flirt with the idea of doubting it when the men in question are screaming Allah's name as they try to behead someone in public with butchers' knives and meat cleavers? - an act, incidentally, which is anything but a regular occurrence, much less in Woolwich.
How many times will these people have to tell us directly that their personal line of communication with the creator of the universe has told them to kill people before we believe them?
I don't understand how people dismiss this either...
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
GF just keep stroking that gun of yours while i smoke my peace pipe , i bet a terrorist would find me more approachable if i was smoking a joint instead of holding a AK47 ....
if you mean "approachable" as in easy target you're right, but if a terrorist attacks you while I'm around "stroking my AK47" I'll make sure I smoke them before they can hurt you my friend, no strings atached...we can write off as my humanitarian good deed for the day.
Sorry to interject, but by what measure was this not a religiously motivated act? Why do we even flirt with the idea of doubting it when the men in question are screaming Allah's name as they try to behead someone in public with butchers' knives and meat cleavers? - an act, incidentally, which is anything but a regular occurrence, much less in Woolwich.
How many times will these people have to tell us directly that their personal line of communication with the creator of the universe has told them to kill people before we believe them?
He said it was in revenge for the war in Afghanistan. He may also have been motivated by the targeting of Muslims in drone strikes in Yemen and elsewhere. So it's political as far as I can see.
Comments
Yes. It certainly does.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I don't agree that revenge and punishment are synonymous. They are related concepts, but they are not the same.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Brutally, from a young man with his life ahead of him
They cut his head off
Matters not whether this was religious or political
Have true empathy and put yourself in this victims shoes
If he could have been told this will happen, what do you think he would wish upon the suspects?
What would you want?
As a society, we learn from our actions and decisions
What do we learn when we let murderers live?
RED ROCKS 6-19-95
AUGUSTA 9-26-96
MANSFIELD 9-15-98
BOSTON 9-29-04
BOSTON 5-25-06
MANSFIELD 6-30-08
EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
BOSTON 5-17-10
EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
PJ20 9-3-11
PJ20 9-4-11
WRIGLEY 7-19-13
WORCESTER 10-15-13
WORCESTER 10-16-13
HARTFORD 10-25-13
But even nine minutes?!?! Is that average response time in London? Not that the police were going to be able to save this poor guy but what if these two monsters kept hacking away at others?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Sorry to interject, but by what measure was this not a religiously motivated act? Why do we even flirt with the idea of doubting it when the men in question are screaming Allah's name as they try to behead someone in public with butchers' knives and meat cleavers? - an act, incidentally, which is anything but a regular occurrence, much less in Woolwich.
How many times will these people have to tell us directly that their personal line of communication with the creator of the universe has told them to kill people before we believe them?
We potentially learn forgiveness....which is an incredibly freeing thing to learn.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not every murderer deserves mercy.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Not every murderer deserves forgiveness.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
It's not for their benefit, it's for ours so we can clearly define the differnce between their action and our own.
But the differences between our actions and their own are clearly defined. We grant them a trial by a jury of their peers, representation, appeals, etc. Their attorneys are free to appeal for clemency right up until the moment the sentence is carried out. Their victims are granted none of that.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
You're right - not ever murderer deserves forgiveness. Heck, probably NONE of them deserve it.
BUT...I was talking about what we could learn from it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Legal procedures aside, the situations are morally the same, people killing because in some way they have convinced themselves that they are justified to do so.
1) The legal procedures are an awfully large difference to just put aside.
2) Hard to gauge the criminal mind of course but I question how many murderers kill because they believe they are justified to. I think they kill for things they want like wealth, out of hate, or because they think they can get away with it more often than not.
That said, the perpetrators who committed the crime in this thread I'm sure did feel they were justified. But they don't get to set the bar for what is and what is not justified.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
However considering it was central London next to an armed army barracks I feel even nine minutes is a bloody long time to wait.
I hear you and perhaps there is something to be learned from it. But there are extreme cases, like this one, when the ultimate punishment should be handed down. These two, for sure, should not be forgiven.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Who cares about 'us'?
We are the furthest removed from the situation. What about thesurvivors and the victim? They are the key stakeholders here. With exceptions, I'm pretty sure justice that serves the magnitude of the crime is desired.
They're not relevant to the point I'm making, it's a moral argument.
Wealth, hate, getting away with it, they can all be justifications in the minds of some.
Agreed, but then I don't think we have that right either when it comes down to choosing whether someone lives or dies.
'Us' being civilised people who don't go around killing people. You don't think that the use of the death penalty can have an effect on social identity?
We'll just agree to disagree. I think people should ALWAYS strive to find a way to forgive and be at peace with the situation. If you hold onto the anger and bitterness, you're just perpetuating the crime and letting the criminal do even more damage.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
But the discussion that is going on here - you have to ask yourself -- How did this evolve into wanting the attackers dead? Some feel thats what they deserve. Some feel its revenge. Some feel its simply the best way to deal with them. But many are speaking out of emotions. It was a sick, horrifying, and disgusting act. Personally, I dont think it solves anything to murder them. I might feel differently if it was me or my family victimized, but we must think as a collective unit, and not single out with emotion...just my opinion.
Again it was a sick act, committed by sick fucks -- But so is the way the death penalty is handed out in some cases.
I just say its too bad the cops didnt waste them on the spot. Its crazy to see some of the pictures of the attackers walking around afterwards, all bloody, still holding knives. I think the cops did shoot them up pretty good from what I hear though...
I'm pretty convinced that they wanted to be shot, since they opened fire on the Police, that way they would have been martyrs.
I think by dismissing the legal procedures it becomes much easier to argue the death penalty is immoral. I think they are very relevant and should not be forgotten in this discussion.
They can all be reasons. Not sure they can all be justifications. Not sure they are the same thing.
Again, this is why I think the legalities are important. We don't have the right to decide whether the accused lives or dies. We do have the right to decide whether the convicted lives or dies.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I think by focussing on legal procedures it is easy to direct attention away from the fundamental human aspect of what is actually being proposed - the premeditated ending of a life.
I don't know why they couldn't be.
Why do we have that right? See, the perpetrators of this crime believed they were justified in their actions because people are dying in the middle east all the time at the hands of western nations.
I found this site quite interesting: http://www.mvfr.org/ it's a community of family members of murder victims who oppose the death penalty.
I feel for his family too.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... istan?lite
To see the blood of their son on the hands of his murderer in the footage where said murdering fuck demanded he be filmed...it'd break my heart and then some. Sort of does already, and I'm an outsider.
Anyone can feel "justified" in their actions; doesn't mean that's actually justice. Sometimes it's just a fucked up response.
(and I do get the irony / conflict in wanting that same justice applied to those supposed "avengers")
I don't understand how people dismiss this either...
if you mean "approachable" as in easy target you're right, but if a terrorist attacks you while I'm around "stroking my AK47" I'll make sure I smoke them before they can hurt you my friend, no strings atached...we can write off as my humanitarian good deed for the day.
Your Godfather.
What do we learn when we kill them? We learn that murder is a solution to problems.
He said it was in revenge for the war in Afghanistan. He may also have been motivated by the targeting of Muslims in drone strikes in Yemen and elsewhere. So it's political as far as I can see.