Are American soldiers ramming civilians and then butchering them with knives? If not I am not following your point.
Of course, because raping and murdering a 14 year old Iraqi schoolgirl isn't as bad, right? Or torturing them before beating them to death. Or sometimes murdering them in cold blood and then cutting off their heads, or fingers, as souvenirs.
And where have I ever said the crimes you list are not bad? Exactly nowhere.
Just as long as nobody's ramming civilians and then butchering them with knives.
Greenwald responds to my latest post. He protests:
That I “legitimated” the London attack or argued it was a “legitimate protest” is as obvious a fabrication as it gets. Not only did I argue no such thing, and not only did I say the exact opposite of what Sullivan and others falsely attribute to me, but I expressly repudiated - in advance – the very claims they try to impose on me. Even vociferous critics of what I wrote, writing in neocon venues, understood this point (“I do find myself wanting to agree with Greenwald in arguing that this is an atrocious murder rather than an act of terror”).
I don’t fabricate things. Look at this direct quote:
“[T]he term [terrorism] at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states.”
Here’s my objection: the West kills “Muslims”; the Jihadists target “states.” That framing, in the direct wake of an act of religious barbarism, actually places Jihadists on a higher moral plane than the West. We’re killing people of a different faith on purpose; they’re just protesting by killing the soldiers who murder them. Maybe Glenn didn’t mean for it to come out that way. But it did.
And yes, I can see (just) how an off-duty soldier might qualify as a non-civilian, although we don’t yet fully know the details of the plot, and therefore complicate the “terror” label. That’s a point worth considering. I also conceded that a defense of the killing as blowback was involved here. So we’re not that far apart on those matters.
But I strongly resist the idea that the West has attempted to kill Muslims in the way that Jihadists have killed so many Muslims and infidels, even though civilian casualties have been a horrifying fact of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the drone wars now winding down. We are seeking to defend ourselves from theocratic mass murderers after an unprovoked attack; they are seeking the triumph of their version of Islam, by any means, including mass murder. The US has not killed for religious reasons; the Jihadists kill solely for religious reasons, which include the sacrosanct nature of religiously-demarcated territory. That includes the Woolwich beheading, as the full context shows. The Jihadist was not defending the “land” he lives in. He is a British-born convert to a murderous form of Sunni Islam (which detests and seeks to murder Shiite infidels as much as any non-Muslims). He is, in fact, attacking his own land, its soldiers and its democratic norms. He wants to turn Britain into a Sharia-Islamist state. And he’s not shy about saying so. That equation of his land with, say, Pakistan, is a religious belief, not an objective fact.
Then there are the fabrications from Glenn. I “continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism” by the US. That accusation is just bizarre, given my record over the last several years, my support for withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, my opposition to new wars in Libya and Syria, my long campaign against torture, and on and on. But, yes, I do believe we are in a civilizational war, as I wrote just after 9/11.
It is a war between violent Jihadist theocracy and the Western tradition of separation between church and state. It is a war we did not seek and it is a war we are trying to end. For the Islamists, in contrast, this war is for ever – until their version of theocracy is triumphant. And the butchers of Woolwich are quite clear about their goals: the imposition of Sharia law and the end of democracy in Britain, their actual native land. For them to assume other countries as “their land” is an obvious sign that what lies behind this is not strategic blowback only – it is a theology of theocracy.
Norm Geras is not as blinkered:
f a man says that he’s butchered someone on the street because of… Afghanistan, it is then true, if he is not lying or self-deceived, that somewhere in the causal chain leading up to that murderous act Western intervention against Al-Qaida and the Taliban has played some part in bringing the atrocity about. But it is by no means a sufficient explanation, as you can quickly ascertain by starting to count up in your head all those angered or upset about Western intervention who haven’t butchered anybody. At the same time, you can start to compute how many people responsible for jihadist terrorism today not only cite Afghanistan and/or Iraq but frame the reference within the terms of an Islamist ideology according to which the slaughter of innocents is an apt response to Western foreign policy. That’s a very large number of people. It is also true, of course, that not all Islamists commit terrorist murder, so this isn’t a complete explanation either, but you’d think the ideological factor should have some prominence.
A rational explanation of these acts is therefore available that places central emphasis on its ideological causes, and doesn’t just parrot what the jihadists themselves say. And those leftists and liberals (verkrappt section) who always draw attention towards what the killers say and away from the belief system that inspires them are not just appealing to rational explanation, they are offering a very particular type of skewed ‘explanation’ that obscures a crucial element of the picture.
I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11. I can see why the latter can spawn the former. I cannot see how they are both morally equivalent.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11.
Except he did nothing of the sort, but simply questioned why we in the West think it's o.k for us to wreak massive violence on foreign countries, and then act surprised when someone, somewhere retaliates. Also, how was invading Iraq or Afghanistan 'self-defense'? Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked America. And top government advisers stated clearly before the invasion of Afghanistan that the invasion would serve to increase the threat of terrorism against Americans at home and abroad.
Anyway, I'm sure Glenn Greenwald will respond to Andrew Sullivan in due course.
I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11.
Except he did nothing of the sort, but simply questioned why we in the West think it's o.k for us to wreak massive violence on foreign countries, and then act surprised when someone, somewhere retaliates. Also, how was invading Iraq or Afghanistan 'self-defense'? Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked America. And top government advisers stated clearly before the invasion of Afghanistan that the invasion would serve to increase the threat of terrorism against Americans at home and abroad.
Anyway, I'm sure Glenn Greenwald will respond to Andrew Sullivan in due course.
I did a quick search and another meaning is "Allah is greater".
Which is fine. A rose by any other name, yada yada.
I don't care which god someone loves. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in god, or (like me) just doesn't know. We all walk our own roads.
Killing in the name of, though? I can't conceive of any god, any religion, supporting such hatred.
If Allah would be proud of the actions of those two fuckers...that's not really god-like in my book.
With an emphatic NO, Allah WON'T BE PROUD of what these 2 fucktards did. Idk who's Allah these or any fanatics worship but the Allah I grew up with ISN'T anything they believe. I was taught that any man/woman who killed anyone would be punished as if they had killed all of humanity, BY GOD. Not by me, you or any other person but by god. So ya, it fucken sux that we have a few fucktards who have hijacked our religion. But at least I can see and believe as I choose to.
With an emphatic NO, Allah WON'T BE PROUD of what these 2 fucktards did. Idk who's Allah these or any fanatics worship but the Allah I grew up with ISN'T anything they believe. I was taught that any man/woman who killed anyone would be punished as if they had killed all of humanity, BY GOD. Not by me, you or any other person but by god. So ya, it fucken sux that we have a few fucktards who have hijacked our religion. But at least I can see and believe as I choose to.
Exactly. Those that pervert a religion, any religion, should not be allowed to define it.
I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11.
Except he did nothing of the sort, but simply questioned why we in the West think it's o.k for us to wreak massive violence on foreign countries, and then act surprised when someone, somewhere retaliates. Also, how was invading Iraq or Afghanistan 'self-defense'? Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked America. And top government advisers stated clearly before the invasion of Afghanistan that the invasion would serve to increase the threat of terrorism against Americans at home and abroad.
Anyway, I'm sure Glenn Greenwald will respond to Andrew Sullivan in due course.
And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.
And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.
Like you cut and pasted the above article, you mean? Minus the articles headline, or date, or quotation marks - why don't you clean your own fucking post up?
And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.
Like you cut and pasted the above article, you mean? Minus the articles headline, or date, or quotation marks - why don't you clean your own fucking post up?
Was the link at the bottom of the "fucking post" too hard to find?
And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does. Until then, since none of the quotes you attribute to me here are mine, why don't you clean this up. Thanks.
Like you cut and pasted the above article, you mean? Minus the articles headline, or date, or quotation marks - why don't you clean your own fucking post up?
Was the link at the bottom of the "fucking post" too hard to find?
I did a quick search and another meaning is "Allah is greater".
Which is fine. A rose by any other name, yada yada.
I don't care which god someone loves. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in god, or (like me) just doesn't know. We all walk our own roads.
Killing in the name of, though? I can't conceive of any god, any religion, supporting such hatred.
If Allah would be proud of the actions of those two fuckers...that's not really god-like in my book.
With an emphatic NO, Allah WON'T BE PROUD of what these 2 fucktards did. Idk who's Allah these or any fanatics worship but the Allah I grew up with ISN'T anything they believe. I was taught that any man/woman who killed anyone would be punished as if they had killed all of humanity, BY GOD. Not by me, you or any other person but by god. So ya, it fucken sux that we have a few fucktards who have hijacked our religion. But at least I can see and believe as I choose to.
Thanks for posting badbrains and shedding some insight on this horrifying incident and from a Muslim point of view and how it affects you as a true Muslim and as a consequence your fellow believers in your faith and not the "fucktards" that inhabit all faiths and relgions; remember Hitler was a committed Christian...I hope one day that all the true believers in religion will unite against the zealots within their religions that twist and destroy and then manipulate their own religions to their own evil ends, and are able to recognise the right to each others divinity. I should'nt really comment as I am a commited atheist and do not feel qualified to comment on these religious issues, especially as I have said in the past on this forum that I would never again speak on religious issues, but why not...eveyone else seems to have a very strong opinion...qualified or not... :fp:
I wonder who will jump in 1st to say it is not a religious issue...hmmmmm
Thanks for posting badbrains and shedding some insight on this horrifying incident and from a Muslim point of view and how it affects you as a true Muslim and as a consequence your fellow believers in your faith and not the "fucktards" that inhabit all faiths and relgions; remember Hitler was a committed Christian...I hope one day that all the true believers in religion will unite against the zealots within their religions that twist and destroy and then manipulate their own religions to their own evil ends, and are able to recognise the right to each others divinity. I should'nt really comment as I am a commited atheist and do not feel qualified to comment on these religious issues, especially as I have said in the past on this forum that I would never again speak on religious issues, but why not...eveyone else seems to have a very strong opinion...qualified or not... :fp:
I wonder who will jump in 1st to say it is not a religious issue...hmmmmm
All opinions welcomed from here! But - I'm not sure opinions can be qualified by anyone but those who claim it - and that's ok by me.
It's personal, after all.
Those who believe, however they do (or don't) peacefully on the live-and-let-live road, high fives to them. Those who preach, I'm actually ok with too as it doesn't infringe upon me.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
...
Aerial... I'm begging you... please, come back to planet Earth.
...
If you did a little digging, you would have found that the murderer and his two victims were acquaintances that had been involved is a fight a couple of days prior to the murder. The murderer SHOT the two victims at close range as they sat in a Mercedes belonging to one of the victims. The murderer, Yusuf Ibrahim, then drove the car and disembodied the victims by removing the heads and hands (as many American murderers do) in order to make identification difficult. He also burned the Mercedes after driving it to Philadelphia in an attempt to destroy the evidence.
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Don't toss your fear into a story to spin it into something that validates your fears. It was a case of a homicide in New Jersey and an attempt to destroy the evidence of the crime.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Aerial... I'm begging you... please, come back to planet Earth.
...
If you did a little digging, you would have found that the murderer and his two victims were acquaintances that had been involved is a fight a couple of days prior to the murder. The murderer SHOT the two victims at close range as they sat in a Mercedes belonging to one of the victims. The murderer, Yusuf Ibrahim, then drove the car and disembodied the victims by removing the heads and hands (as many American murderers do) in order to make identification difficult. He also burned the Mercedes after driving it to Philadelphia in an attempt to destroy the evidence.
...
Don't toss your fear into a story to spin it into something that validates your fears. It was a case of a homicide in New Jersey and an attempt to destroy the evidence of the crime.
Not fears - bigotry.
But in her excitement she did forget to mention that all Muslims are Pedophiles.
How is it that they still allow you to post? Maybe someone needs to report you to the mods for blatantly posting lies that OFFEND people. We get it Ariel, you hate Muslims. :roll:
From online abuse to fire bombs thrown at mosques, there has been a spike in anti-Muslim attacks. While many incidents are not reported to the police, groups such as the Tell Mama project paint a worrying picture of rising Islamophobia and violence
Homa Khaleeli
The Guardian, Wednesday 5 June 2013
"I don't really want to go out now," Rizwan Ali says anxiously. "If I needed something I used to just go to the shops, but I've been staying in." On 24 May the father of four had been to Friday prayers at his local mosque. On his way home he popped into Pound Stretcher to look at gardening equipment. As he browsed he noticed another customer staring at him.
"He was looking at me, as though I had done something," Ali (not his real name), explains. "Then he started shouting: 'You are a Muslim, you are a soldier killer.' I was shocked and scared. It was very upsetting. I moved to the front of the shop, but he kept following me."
Since the brutal murder of drummer Lee Rigby earlier this month, campaigners say that such anti-Muslim incidents have been repeated across the country. Monitoring groups have recorded the targeting of 11 mosques, while women wearing hijab have complained about being spat at, or having their headscarves pulled off. This week, a community centre and mosque was destroyed in a fire and police are investigating whether it was firebombed, after reports that fire crews saw the letters EDL scrawled on the side of the building. Online, activists say there have been shocking levels of vitriol unleashed. But the attacks have also revitalised the argument over whether Islamophobia, and the targeting of Muslims, is being overstated. The Metropolitan police's head of counter-terrorism, Cressida Dick, calls the wave of attacks "horrible" and agrees there has been an increase, but says "compared to previous times we have had slightly less".
Yet monitoring groups and campaigners point out that hate crime is often under-reported, with Muslims in particular reluctant to contact the police for fear they won't be taken seriously. Some campaigners point out confidence in the police may also be low in the wake of counter-terrorism strategies such as Prevent. And they say harrasment that is not violent, such as verbal abuse or spitting, can still spread fear and make communities feel under siege.
For the imam of Grimsby mosque the answer to whether Islamophobia is a problem, is clear. Dr Ahmad M Sabik says his mosque has always had a good relationship with its neighbours, pointing to regular schools visits and an active interfaith network. But days after the Woolwich killing, bricks were hurled through the window, narrowly avoiding worshippers. A group of teenagers were arrested and the community shrugged off the incident. But three days later things became more serious.
"It was about 10pm and one of the brothers was leaving," Sabik recalls. "Just as he was opening the door fire was thrown at it. We realised it was a petrol bomb. Another one had been thrown at the fire exit – can you imagine? And there was a third that they had tried to throw on the roof. There were children inside. Everyone was frightened."
Two ex-soldiers have since appeared in court, charged with arson with intent to endanger life, but Sabik worries that such incidents are not being taken seriously enough. "What happened in London was nothing to do with Islam, and what happened in Grimsby was nothing to do with British culture – but both are terrorist acts."
Fiyaz Mughal, director of conflict resolution charity Faith Matters, says many Muslims feel the same. The organisation runs the Tell Mama project, mapping Islamophobic incidents around the country. The idea for Tell Mama (the acronym stands for Measuring Anti Muslim Attacks) was sparked by the government's desire for more information – and a growing perception among British Muslims that Islamophobia was underestimated.
After the Woolwich killing was linked to Islamist extremism, the number of incidents the project recorded skyrocketed from an average of about eight a day to 221. Mughal says their numbers are higher because people do not always report cases to the police, and Tell Mama records Islamophobic incidents as well as crimes. The figures from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), which is more cautious, also recorded a spike in incidents – with 71 hate crimes or incidents reported between 22-27 May, compared with 27 reports of anti-Muslim activity in the seven days before the killing. The police's online reporting facility for hate crimes, True Vision, had 136 complaints, including physical offences and internet material (but say some of these may be duplicates). The Metropolitan police force, meanwhile, says it has had eight reports of potentially Islamophobic crime each day in London since the Woolwich murder compared to an average of one a day in the past 12 months.
...Case worker Amani El Sehrawry flicks through some recent reports to show me what the project is dealing with: a woman has emailed to flag up the verbal abuse of Muslim stallholders in Brixton market; a man has sent in a screenshot of an EDL member posing with a gun and tweeting about how he will exact a "violent revenge" against Muslims; a woman has rung in extremely distressed because dog excrement has been smeared on her house.
Meanwhile the 11 confirmed attacks on mosques, says Mughal – which include graffitti, arson, and even bacon being left outside – could have a huge impact on how safe Muslims feel. "When a mosque is attacked, it may be an attack on an institution not an individual," he says, "but it affects hundreds of people, and leads to the perception within the community that their identity is under seige. I think if it was 10 churches or 10 synagogues attacked there would not be this undermining of our work."
Abuse on social media should not be underestimated either, he insists, pointing out it can lead to offline attacks. "When we started the project we would pick up social media chatter by far-right groups saying, 'We should go and put a pig's head, or pig's trotters, outside a mosque,' but we had not had anything like that reported.
"But in the past few months we have seen eight of these incidents – a shift from talking about it online to doing it in real life."
El Sehrawry says she had to phone the police several times last week to report direct threats, something she has not had to do in the project's 14-month lifespan. "We have had people online using someone's name directly and saying 'why not stab them?'. There have been people saying we need a repeat of the Norway massacre to make a statement. It's really disgusting."
Moosavi too, believes that monitoring online Islamophobia is important. "It causes great injury and can inspire real-life hatred and discrimination:
"Online Islamophobia reflects more hidden attitudes than those that circulate in society."
From online abuse to fire bombs thrown at mosques, there has been a spike in anti-Muslim attacks. While many incidents are not reported to the police, groups such as the Tell Mama project paint a worrying picture of rising Islamophobia and violence
Homa Khaleeli
The Guardian, Wednesday 5 June 2013
"I don't really want to go out now," Rizwan Ali says anxiously. "If I needed something I used to just go to the shops, but I've been staying in." On 24 May the father of four had been to Friday prayers at his local mosque. On his way home he popped into Pound Stretcher to look at gardening equipment. As he browsed he noticed another customer staring at him.
"He was looking at me, as though I had done something," Ali (not his real name), explains. "Then he started shouting: 'You are a Muslim, you are a soldier killer.' I was shocked and scared. It was very upsetting. I moved to the front of the shop, but he kept following me."
Since the brutal murder of drummer Lee Rigby earlier this month, campaigners say that such anti-Muslim incidents have been repeated across the country. Monitoring groups have recorded the targeting of 11 mosques, while women wearing hijab have complained about being spat at, or having their headscarves pulled off. This week, a community centre and mosque was destroyed in a fire and police are investigating whether it was firebombed, after reports that fire crews saw the letters EDL scrawled on the side of the building. Online, activists say there have been shocking levels of vitriol unleashed. But the attacks have also revitalised the argument over whether Islamophobia, and the targeting of Muslims, is being overstated. The Metropolitan police's head of counter-terrorism, Cressida Dick, calls the wave of attacks "horrible" and agrees there has been an increase, but says "compared to previous times we have had slightly less".
Yet monitoring groups and campaigners point out that hate crime is often under-reported, with Muslims in particular reluctant to contact the police for fear they won't be taken seriously. Some campaigners point out confidence in the police may also be low in the wake of counter-terrorism strategies such as Prevent. And they say harrasment that is not violent, such as verbal abuse or spitting, can still spread fear and make communities feel under siege.
For the imam of Grimsby mosque the answer to whether Islamophobia is a problem, is clear. Dr Ahmad M Sabik says his mosque has always had a good relationship with its neighbours, pointing to regular schools visits and an active interfaith network. But days after the Woolwich killing, bricks were hurled through the window, narrowly avoiding worshippers. A group of teenagers were arrested and the community shrugged off the incident. But three days later things became more serious.
"It was about 10pm and one of the brothers was leaving," Sabik recalls. "Just as he was opening the door fire was thrown at it. We realised it was a petrol bomb. Another one had been thrown at the fire exit – can you imagine? And there was a third that they had tried to throw on the roof. There were children inside. Everyone was frightened."
Two ex-soldiers have since appeared in court, charged with arson with intent to endanger life, but Sabik worries that such incidents are not being taken seriously enough. "What happened in London was nothing to do with Islam, and what happened in Grimsby was nothing to do with British culture – but both are terrorist acts."
Fiyaz Mughal, director of conflict resolution charity Faith Matters, says many Muslims feel the same. The organisation runs the Tell Mama project, mapping Islamophobic incidents around the country. The idea for Tell Mama (the acronym stands for Measuring Anti Muslim Attacks) was sparked by the government's desire for more information – and a growing perception among British Muslims that Islamophobia was underestimated.
After the Woolwich killing was linked to Islamist extremism, the number of incidents the project recorded skyrocketed from an average of about eight a day to 221. Mughal says their numbers are higher because people do not always report cases to the police, and Tell Mama records Islamophobic incidents as well as crimes. The figures from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), which is more cautious, also recorded a spike in incidents – with 71 hate crimes or incidents reported between 22-27 May, compared with 27 reports of anti-Muslim activity in the seven days before the killing. The police's online reporting facility for hate crimes, True Vision, had 136 complaints, including physical offences and internet material (but say some of these may be duplicates). The Metropolitan police force, meanwhile, says it has had eight reports of potentially Islamophobic crime each day in London since the Woolwich murder compared to an average of one a day in the past 12 months.
...Case worker Amani El Sehrawry flicks through some recent reports to show me what the project is dealing with: a woman has emailed to flag up the verbal abuse of Muslim stallholders in Brixton market; a man has sent in a screenshot of an EDL member posing with a gun and tweeting about how he will exact a "violent revenge" against Muslims; a woman has rung in extremely distressed because dog excrement has been smeared on her house.
Meanwhile the 11 confirmed attacks on mosques, says Mughal – which include graffitti, arson, and even bacon being left outside – could have a huge impact on how safe Muslims feel. "When a mosque is attacked, it may be an attack on an institution not an individual," he says, "but it affects hundreds of people, and leads to the perception within the community that their identity is under seige. I think if it was 10 churches or 10 synagogues attacked there would not be this undermining of our work."
Abuse on social media should not be underestimated either, he insists, pointing out it can lead to offline attacks. "When we started the project we would pick up social media chatter by far-right groups saying, 'We should go and put a pig's head, or pig's trotters, outside a mosque,' but we had not had anything like that reported.
"But in the past few months we have seen eight of these incidents – a shift from talking about it online to doing it in real life."
El Sehrawry says she had to phone the police several times last week to report direct threats, something she has not had to do in the project's 14-month lifespan. "We have had people online using someone's name directly and saying 'why not stab them?'. There have been people saying we need a repeat of the Norway massacre to make a statement. It's really disgusting."
Moosavi too, believes that monitoring online Islamophobia is important. "It causes great injury and can inspire real-life hatred and discrimination:
"Online Islamophobia reflects more hidden attitudes than those that circulate in society."
the ridiculous nature of islamophobia aside, why the fuck can't people just leave each other alone. I am not saying love everyone, but just leave each other alone. Why the fuck is that so god damn difficult?
Is it me or are many people incapable of separating out crazy from the rest of the group? Religous fundamentalism/extremism = crazy and it is not representative of all involved in a religion.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
the ridiculous nature of islamophobia aside, why the fuck can't people just leave each other alone. I am not saying love everyone, but just leave each other alone. Why the fuck is that so god damn difficult?
Is it me or are many people incapable of separating out crazy from the rest of the group? Religous fundamentalism/extremism = crazy and it is not representative of all involved in a religion.
the ridiculous nature of islamophobia aside, why the fuck can't people just leave each other alone. I am not saying love everyone, but just leave each other alone. Why the fuck is that so god damn difficult?
Is it me or are many people incapable of separating out crazy from the rest of the group? Religous fundamentalism/extremism = crazy and it is not representative of all involved in a religion.
Comments
Just as long as nobody's ramming civilians and then butchering them with knives.
Greenwald responds to my latest post. He protests:
I don’t fabricate things. Look at this direct quote:
Here’s my objection: the West kills “Muslims”; the Jihadists target “states.” That framing, in the direct wake of an act of religious barbarism, actually places Jihadists on a higher moral plane than the West. We’re killing people of a different faith on purpose; they’re just protesting by killing the soldiers who murder them. Maybe Glenn didn’t mean for it to come out that way. But it did.
And yes, I can see (just) how an off-duty soldier might qualify as a non-civilian, although we don’t yet fully know the details of the plot, and therefore complicate the “terror” label. That’s a point worth considering. I also conceded that a defense of the killing as blowback was involved here. So we’re not that far apart on those matters.
But I strongly resist the idea that the West has attempted to kill Muslims in the way that Jihadists have killed so many Muslims and infidels, even though civilian casualties have been a horrifying fact of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the drone wars now winding down. We are seeking to defend ourselves from theocratic mass murderers after an unprovoked attack; they are seeking the triumph of their version of Islam, by any means, including mass murder. The US has not killed for religious reasons; the Jihadists kill solely for religious reasons, which include the sacrosanct nature of religiously-demarcated territory. That includes the Woolwich beheading, as the full context shows. The Jihadist was not defending the “land” he lives in. He is a British-born convert to a murderous form of Sunni Islam (which detests and seeks to murder Shiite infidels as much as any non-Muslims). He is, in fact, attacking his own land, its soldiers and its democratic norms. He wants to turn Britain into a Sharia-Islamist state. And he’s not shy about saying so. That equation of his land with, say, Pakistan, is a religious belief, not an objective fact.
Then there are the fabrications from Glenn. I “continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism” by the US. That accusation is just bizarre, given my record over the last several years, my support for withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan, my opposition to new wars in Libya and Syria, my long campaign against torture, and on and on. But, yes, I do believe we are in a civilizational war, as I wrote just after 9/11.
It is a war between violent Jihadist theocracy and the Western tradition of separation between church and state. It is a war we did not seek and it is a war we are trying to end. For the Islamists, in contrast, this war is for ever – until their version of theocracy is triumphant. And the butchers of Woolwich are quite clear about their goals: the imposition of Sharia law and the end of democracy in Britain, their actual native land. For them to assume other countries as “their land” is an obvious sign that what lies behind this is not strategic blowback only – it is a theology of theocracy.
Norm Geras is not as blinkered:
I think Glenn has gone from a completely legitimate critique of the West’s “war on terror” toward the equation of Jihadist murder with legitimate self-defense after 9/11. I can see why the latter can spawn the former. I cannot see how they are both morally equivalent.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/ ... ain-ctd-4/
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Because 9/11 was year zero, right?
Too funny. Anyone seen Iraq's WMD's yet?
Except he did nothing of the sort, but simply questioned why we in the West think it's o.k for us to wreak massive violence on foreign countries, and then act surprised when someone, somewhere retaliates. Also, how was invading Iraq or Afghanistan 'self-defense'? Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq attacked America. And top government advisers stated clearly before the invasion of Afghanistan that the invasion would serve to increase the threat of terrorism against Americans at home and abroad.
Anyway, I'm sure Glenn Greenwald will respond to Andrew Sullivan in due course.
Not a single one of those quotes is mine.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
The two killers were chanting it.
I think it means Allah is the greatest.
Which is fine. A rose by any other name, yada yada.
I don't care which god someone loves. I don't care if someone doesn't believe in god, or (like me) just doesn't know. We all walk our own roads.
Killing in the name of, though? I can't conceive of any god, any religion, supporting such hatred.
If Allah would be proud of the actions of those two fuckers...that's not really god-like in my book.
With an emphatic NO, Allah WON'T BE PROUD of what these 2 fucktards did. Idk who's Allah these or any fanatics worship but the Allah I grew up with ISN'T anything they believe. I was taught that any man/woman who killed anyone would be punished as if they had killed all of humanity, BY GOD. Not by me, you or any other person but by god. So ya, it fucken sux that we have a few fucktards who have hijacked our religion. But at least I can see and believe as I choose to.
Exactly. Those that pervert a religion, any religion, should not be allowed to define it.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
And I'm sure you'll cut n' paste it when he does.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Like you cut and pasted the above article, you mean?
Was the link at the bottom of the "fucking post" too hard to find?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
No, but that's irrelevant.
Next...
Thanks for posting badbrains and shedding some insight on this horrifying incident and from a Muslim point of view and how it affects you as a true Muslim and as a consequence your fellow believers in your faith and not the "fucktards" that inhabit all faiths and relgions; remember Hitler was a committed Christian...I hope one day that all the true believers in religion will unite against the zealots within their religions that twist and destroy and then manipulate their own religions to their own evil ends, and are able to recognise the right to each others divinity. I should'nt really comment as I am a commited atheist and do not feel qualified to comment on these religious issues, especially as I have said in the past on this forum that I would never again speak on religious issues, but why not...eveyone else seems to have a very strong opinion...qualified or not... :fp:
I wonder who will jump in 1st to say it is not a religious issue...hmmmmm
It's personal, after all.
Those who believe, however they do (or don't) peacefully on the live-and-let-live road, high fives to them. Those who preach, I'm actually ok with too as it doesn't infringe upon me.
Those who insist and yell and stomp their feet?
(or take it to some unfathomable level)
Get the fuckouttahere, and then some.
Obvious based on his search for the Lost Ark.
Let's get back to the main theme. Lone wolf. Political. Non religious.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Mainstream Media Ignores Beheading Deaths of 2 Christians In New Jersey
http://dcxposed.com/2013/02/26/mainstream-media-ignores-beheading-deaths-of-2-christians-in-new-jersey-2/
Less than 60 seconds of online research found numerous references to the man killing the 2 men with gunshots...in the so called mainstream media
do some research before you post a link from an unreliable and clearly biased website
:fp:
Aerial... I'm begging you... please, come back to planet Earth.
...
If you did a little digging, you would have found that the murderer and his two victims were acquaintances that had been involved is a fight a couple of days prior to the murder. The murderer SHOT the two victims at close range as they sat in a Mercedes belonging to one of the victims. The murderer, Yusuf Ibrahim, then drove the car and disembodied the victims by removing the heads and hands (as many American murderers do) in order to make identification difficult. He also burned the Mercedes after driving it to Philadelphia in an attempt to destroy the evidence.
...
Don't toss your fear into a story to spin it into something that validates your fears. It was a case of a homicide in New Jersey and an attempt to destroy the evidence of the crime.
Hail, Hail!!!
I did actually laugh out loud when I read this post. And I didn't even need to click on the link to get my laughs.
Not fears - bigotry.
But in her excitement she did forget to mention that all Muslims are Pedophiles.
How is it that they still allow you to post? Maybe someone needs to report you to the mods for blatantly posting lies that OFFEND people. We get it Ariel, you hate Muslims. :roll:
Not to be a dick, but I wonder the same thing.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... isses?lite
2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
Islamophobic hate crime: is it getting worse?
From online abuse to fire bombs thrown at mosques, there has been a spike in anti-Muslim attacks. While many incidents are not reported to the police, groups such as the Tell Mama project paint a worrying picture of rising Islamophobia and violence
Homa Khaleeli
The Guardian, Wednesday 5 June 2013
"I don't really want to go out now," Rizwan Ali says anxiously. "If I needed something I used to just go to the shops, but I've been staying in." On 24 May the father of four had been to Friday prayers at his local mosque. On his way home he popped into Pound Stretcher to look at gardening equipment. As he browsed he noticed another customer staring at him.
"He was looking at me, as though I had done something," Ali (not his real name), explains. "Then he started shouting: 'You are a Muslim, you are a soldier killer.' I was shocked and scared. It was very upsetting. I moved to the front of the shop, but he kept following me."
Since the brutal murder of drummer Lee Rigby earlier this month, campaigners say that such anti-Muslim incidents have been repeated across the country. Monitoring groups have recorded the targeting of 11 mosques, while women wearing hijab have complained about being spat at, or having their headscarves pulled off. This week, a community centre and mosque was destroyed in a fire and police are investigating whether it was firebombed, after reports that fire crews saw the letters EDL scrawled on the side of the building. Online, activists say there have been shocking levels of vitriol unleashed. But the attacks have also revitalised the argument over whether Islamophobia, and the targeting of Muslims, is being overstated. The Metropolitan police's head of counter-terrorism, Cressida Dick, calls the wave of attacks "horrible" and agrees there has been an increase, but says "compared to previous times we have had slightly less".
Yet monitoring groups and campaigners point out that hate crime is often under-reported, with Muslims in particular reluctant to contact the police for fear they won't be taken seriously. Some campaigners point out confidence in the police may also be low in the wake of counter-terrorism strategies such as Prevent. And they say harrasment that is not violent, such as verbal abuse or spitting, can still spread fear and make communities feel under siege.
For the imam of Grimsby mosque the answer to whether Islamophobia is a problem, is clear. Dr Ahmad M Sabik says his mosque has always had a good relationship with its neighbours, pointing to regular schools visits and an active interfaith network. But days after the Woolwich killing, bricks were hurled through the window, narrowly avoiding worshippers. A group of teenagers were arrested and the community shrugged off the incident. But three days later things became more serious.
"It was about 10pm and one of the brothers was leaving," Sabik recalls. "Just as he was opening the door fire was thrown at it. We realised it was a petrol bomb. Another one had been thrown at the fire exit – can you imagine? And there was a third that they had tried to throw on the roof. There were children inside. Everyone was frightened."
Two ex-soldiers have since appeared in court, charged with arson with intent to endanger life, but Sabik worries that such incidents are not being taken seriously enough. "What happened in London was nothing to do with Islam, and what happened in Grimsby was nothing to do with British culture – but both are terrorist acts."
Fiyaz Mughal, director of conflict resolution charity Faith Matters, says many Muslims feel the same. The organisation runs the Tell Mama project, mapping Islamophobic incidents around the country. The idea for Tell Mama (the acronym stands for Measuring Anti Muslim Attacks) was sparked by the government's desire for more information – and a growing perception among British Muslims that Islamophobia was underestimated.
After the Woolwich killing was linked to Islamist extremism, the number of incidents the project recorded skyrocketed from an average of about eight a day to 221. Mughal says their numbers are higher because people do not always report cases to the police, and Tell Mama records Islamophobic incidents as well as crimes. The figures from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), which is more cautious, also recorded a spike in incidents – with 71 hate crimes or incidents reported between 22-27 May, compared with 27 reports of anti-Muslim activity in the seven days before the killing. The police's online reporting facility for hate crimes, True Vision, had 136 complaints, including physical offences and internet material (but say some of these may be duplicates). The Metropolitan police force, meanwhile, says it has had eight reports of potentially Islamophobic crime each day in London since the Woolwich murder compared to an average of one a day in the past 12 months.
...Case worker Amani El Sehrawry flicks through some recent reports to show me what the project is dealing with: a woman has emailed to flag up the verbal abuse of Muslim stallholders in Brixton market; a man has sent in a screenshot of an EDL member posing with a gun and tweeting about how he will exact a "violent revenge" against Muslims; a woman has rung in extremely distressed because dog excrement has been smeared on her house.
Meanwhile the 11 confirmed attacks on mosques, says Mughal – which include graffitti, arson, and even bacon being left outside – could have a huge impact on how safe Muslims feel. "When a mosque is attacked, it may be an attack on an institution not an individual," he says, "but it affects hundreds of people, and leads to the perception within the community that their identity is under seige. I think if it was 10 churches or 10 synagogues attacked there would not be this undermining of our work."
Abuse on social media should not be underestimated either, he insists, pointing out it can lead to offline attacks. "When we started the project we would pick up social media chatter by far-right groups saying, 'We should go and put a pig's head, or pig's trotters, outside a mosque,' but we had not had anything like that reported.
"But in the past few months we have seen eight of these incidents – a shift from talking about it online to doing it in real life."
El Sehrawry says she had to phone the police several times last week to report direct threats, something she has not had to do in the project's 14-month lifespan. "We have had people online using someone's name directly and saying 'why not stab them?'. There have been people saying we need a repeat of the Norway massacre to make a statement. It's really disgusting."
Moosavi too, believes that monitoring online Islamophobia is important. "It causes great injury and can inspire real-life hatred and discrimination:
"Online Islamophobia reflects more hidden attitudes than those that circulate in society."
the ridiculous nature of islamophobia aside, why the fuck can't people just leave each other alone. I am not saying love everyone, but just leave each other alone. Why the fuck is that so god damn difficult?
Is it me or are many people incapable of separating out crazy from the rest of the group? Religous fundamentalism/extremism = crazy and it is not representative of all involved in a religion.
Leave Muslims alone, leave christians alone, leave Greek Orthodox alone...oh, and Brittany too.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
And me too. Leave me alone!
Not to take away from your post: it is perplexing to say the least that we simply do not play well with others.
Ha! Just caught him on a rerun of Tosh the other night.
And yeah - ANY phobia aside - people need to back the fuck off of those just living their lives.
Many (ok, perhaps "some" is more accurate than "many", but still) would do well to lay their brushes aside.
I too have been painted by a few over the years. They didn't have an overall impact on my life but certainly an immediate and disturbing one.