Thoughts on political stuff at shows

lastexitlondon · September 2007

each to there own . the music would not be the same without the feelings of the song writer explained in the song or before its performed why is it our concern what is said

StuartC · September 2007

Pegasus wrote:

when America stops mingling with the rest of the world politics, either directly or through economic pressure, then we'll stop caring who the fuck rules your country.
you don't care about who governs the UK, France or Zimbabwe because it doesn't affect you (or at least you don't think it does)..we know that Bush's actions have had effect on our lives, even if WE were not dumb enough to vote for him...or allowed to vote against..

You have no right to vote in the U.S. and have no say in my government. If you are worried about how much the U.S. impacts your country (presumably the U.K.) then elect officials who have strong thoughts against dependency on other nations. Plus, I don't think you are in the right spot to complain being from where you are. Perhaps if you were a smaller nation particularly set back, then I would consider your argument.

My entire argument is spurned on by this example: Last year, Hugo Chavez (that mother-effing, facist, Castro-loving, tyrant that he is) came to the UN in NYC and started making political- but mainly- personal attacks on George W. Bush. (even going so far as to remark that there was a stench coming off him) The next day, both Republicans and Democrats alike were aggravated and insulted that a foreign leader dare come and make such dashing remarks about their own president on the international stage. Many Americans felt the same way, believing it was THEIR job to question and attack the president, rather than a foreign leader just looking for trouble.

brain of c · September 2007

i want to be vice president.

vote for me.

Pegasus · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

You have no right to vote in the U.S. and have no say in my government. If you are worried about how much the U.S. impacts your country (presumably the U.K.) then elect officials who have strong thoughts against dependency on other nations. Plus, I don't think you are in the right spot to complain being from where you are. Perhaps if you were a smaller nation particularly set back, then I would consider your argument.

that's the problem.
I didn't say 'my country', I said the rest of the world..I'm able to think about other people, right now in particular thinking of the Iraqis..

and you're perfectly free to criticise our fuckers when they mess you up.... we're just better at doing it, we've got the practice: dissent is expected here.

My entire argument is spurned on by this example: Last year, Hugo Chavez (that mother-effing, facist, Castro-loving, tyrant that he is) came to the UN in NYC and started making political- but mainly- personal attacks on George W. Bush. (even going so far as to remark that there was a stench coming off him) The next day, both Republicans and Democrats alike were aggravated and insulted that a foreign leader dare come and make such dashing remarks about their own president on the international stage. Many Americans felt the same way, believing it was THEIR job to question and attack the president, rather than a foreign leader just looking for trouble.

not been doing a very good job of it since you still have him there, RE-elected him FFS!
(not that I approve of Chavez self-publicising methods btw)

laudenum · September 2007

ed just needs to be carefull where he says what he says,personaly i agree with him as do ALOT of others. if the response to his remarks are boneheads turning their back to the stage,thats a drag. its not his opinion thats the problem but the reaction to it. if by now you dont know eds views on a variety of subjects....
well u havent beens paying attention at all.
in canada his remarks are warmly recieved:)

StuartC · September 2007

Pegasus wrote:

that's the problem.
I didn't say 'my country', I said the rest of the world..I'm able to think about other people, right now in particular thinking of the Iraqis..

and you're perfectly free to criticise our fuckers when they mess you up.... we're just better at doing it, we've got the practice: dissent is expected here.

not been doing a very good job of it since you still have him there, RE-elected him FFS!
(not that I approve of Chavez self-publicising methods btw)

This is where you lose me. What is happening in Iraq to innocent citizens is horrible. There should be more humanitarian aide, and more international involvment in quelling the citizen death toll. However, it is not, has never been, and never will be the priority of American voters to focus on the lives and suffering of other people in foreign countries when voting. We're not talking "We care more about ourselves and our security, so vote candidate X and screw the foreign community" versus "Vote for me and I'll bring world peace"... We are instead talking about the importance of issues. It is hard to fault a voter for considering the things that affect him and his family domestically more than a person in a foreign land he has never met and shares few similarities with.

Let us please pretend for a moment that our debate does not involve Bush. Lets get back to generalities. We can (and both have) used him as an example for points, but really this is about whether or not foreignors should be included in conversation that is not about their own politics and government. Everyone is entitled to an opinion... but for someone in this instance to simply say "I'm right, you're wrong" is warrantless.

Hinny · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

but really this is about whether or not foreignors should be included in conversation that is not about their own politics and government.

How is this even up for debate?

Heineken Helen · September 2007

laudenum wrote:

ed just needs to be carefull where he says what he says,personaly i agree with him as do ALOT of others. if the response to his remarks are boneheads turning their back to the stage,thats a drag. its not his opinion thats the problem but the reaction to it. if by now you dont know eds views on a variety of subjects....
well u havent beens paying attention at all.
in canada his remarks are warmly recieved:)

why should he need to be careful? Isn't America the land of free speech and all that bollox? A security guard at the vic brought up the Iraq thing with me and going on about uncivilised people and all that. I replied who's uncivilised? And he said 'oh ya know... the middle east'. :rolleyes: I reminded him we've had our problems in Ireland too and he said 'oh Ireland... that's a strange country... I wanna go there some day' :eek: I shoulda told him to come on over but I din't try and convince him, lol. Point is the entire time he was looking at me smugly for a reaction... I didn't give it. It was very fucking intimidating. I don't like having to keep my opinions to myself and I would imagine that the US of good ole A would appreciate freedom of speech?

Also, I never understand why you guys are so protective of your president?

what's the big deal? Our Taoiseach attends most sporting events and ALWAYS gets booed... it's just what's done, lol. If we've something bad to say, we'll say it, and we don't get told to mind our own business. Nobody here would be offended if you say something bad about our leader. By the way I'm talking about your OWN people. Why should you be offended that Eddie doesn't like Bush?

Heineken Helen · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

We can (and both have) used him as an example for points, but really this is about whether or not foreignors should be included in conversation that is not about their own politics and government. Everyone is entitled to an opinion... but for someone in this instance to simply say "I'm right, you're wrong" is warrantless.

Wow! Ok first off, you say that you vote keeping in mind internal issues... like security for example. Why does voting for a warmonger and oil baron make you feel safer?

Whether you or I like it or not, we cannot vote in the US elections, yet the elections DO affect us and we're gonna fucking complain about it damn right. You have a point saying we should vote for someone who's not gonna support your administration. That would be very nice if such a party existed in any countries. The only countries who were independant enough to be ABLE to stand up are the likes of Germany, France (not so much anymore maybe) and Spain. We don't have that luxury. We're a small country who depend very much on the bigger countries. Yes, that's our own fault. We've had enough riches over the past decade and a half to become more self sustainable yet we didn't seize this opportunity and welcomed yet MORE foreign investment. Yes, this IS our own fault, this IS our problem but Bush saying things like 'you're either with us or against us' is NOT very helpful. Big countries can stand up to him and survive... WE can't. Yet we're a neutral country supposedly... what does he want from us? This is globalisation, it's bad, it's fucking disgusting. I can't vote but yet your elections effect the future of my country more than mine probably does :(

laudenum · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

why should he need to be careful? Isn't America the land of free speech and all that bollox? A security guard at the vic brought up the Iraq thing with me and going on about uncivilised people and all that. I replied who's uncivilised? And he said 'oh ya know... the middle east'. :rolleyes: I reminded him we've had our problems in Ireland too and he said 'oh Ireland... that's a strange country... I wanna go there some day' :eek: I shoulda told him to come on over but I din't try and convince him, lol. Point is the entire time he was looking at me smugly for a reaction... I didn't give it. It was very fucking intimidating. I don't like having to keep my opinions to myself and I would imagine that the US of good ole A would appreciate freedom of speech?

Also, I never understand why you guys are so protective of your president? what's the big deal? Our Taoiseach attends most sporting events and ALWAYS gets booed... it's just what's done, lol. If we've something bad to say, we'll say it, and we don't get told to mind our own business. Nobody here would be offended if you say something bad about our leader. By the way I'm talking about your OWN people. Why should you be offended that Eddie doesn't like Bush?

you totally misunderstood my statement.
i just meant that ed was criticised terribly when he "impaled" a bush mask on a mic stand.
i agree with his stance,and political views.i'd be the last to defend bush,and as would 99.999% of us canadians

Pegasus · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

but really this is about whether or not foreignors should be included in conversation that is not about their own politics and government.

when the politics and government of other countries are not purely domestic but affect other countries then definitely (and I'll argue even if they are domestic you are entitled to an opinion anyway, and to express it).
what you do with those expressed opinion, it's your choice, but I'll least you'll be aware that there are other point of views and other solutions.

You can't MAKE Americans change their politics, but you can inform them that there's other models..(and it's true with other countries...would you say you're not entitle to criticise other regime, like Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea?..America does it all the time: Iran, Iraq, South America...and far more than just commenting too!)

Pegasus · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

why should he need to be careful? Isn't America the land of free speech and all that bollox? A security guard at the vic brought up the Iraq thing with me and going on about uncivilised people and all that. I replied who's uncivilised? And he said 'oh ya know... the middle east'. :rolleyes: I reminded him we've had our problems in Ireland too and he said 'oh Ireland... that's a strange country... I wanna go there some day' :eek: I shoulda told him to come on over but I din't try and convince him, lol. Point is the entire time he was looking at me smugly for a reaction... I didn't give it. It was very fucking intimidating. I don't like having to keep my opinions to myself and I would imagine that the US of good ole A would appreciate freedom of speech?

I missed that conversation! (probably just as well!

)
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:

Prioronfire22 · September 2007

Some people might disagree, but usually I'm honestly interested in what he has to say about local and nationwide politics. He has some interesting opinions and usually they are very funny.

StuartC · September 2007

Pegasus wrote:

when the politics and government of other countries are not purely domestic but affect other countries then definitely (and I'll argue even if they are domestic you are entitled to an opinion anyway, and to express it).
what you do with those expressed opinion, it's your choice, but I'll least you'll be aware that there are other point of views and other solutions.

You can't MAKE Americans change their politics, but you can inform them that there's other models..(and it's true with other countries...would you say you're not entitle to criticise other regime, like Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea?..America does it all the time: Iran, Iraq, South America...and far more than just commenting too!)

I accept your point, and I understand your argument. However, it is alot easier for ANYONE to criticize Myanmar's government than it is for Americans to listen to foreigners criticize their own governments. I guess you could make this type of analogy: Is your opinion or feeling about a concert you didn't go to as valuable as someone's who did go? If you criticize a foreign policy that affects your country in some significant way, I respect your opinion and your entitled to it. But foreign policy is only part of American politics.

StuartC · September 2007

Pegasus wrote:

I missed that conversation! (probably just as well! )
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:

Wow Pegasus, are we going to combine two arguments? Hahaha. First off, when you look at the sheer size of America, with all it's cities and urban centers, the crime stats are going to be bloated. It is a little ridiculous I'll admit, because it's rednecks from the southern U.S. defending gun rights while it's people in northern citites killing each other... but besides that, I would not call where I'm from or where most other Americans from uncivilized. And not to take any shots, but being from London Im sure you know about some of the bad areas around Elephant & Castle, which I have witnessed first hand. When I was visiting back in April, there was a really bad streak of teen gun-related deaths. I think it is safe to say that everybody has their own problems with violence and homicide, but I must say, there are no gunfights on my street outside, or any streets nearby for that matter. Yes, in America we do wear clothes, speak English, and eat with forks and knives (or at least most of the time).

Heineken Helen · September 2007

laudenum wrote:

you totally misunderstood my statement.
i just meant that ed was criticised terribly when he "impaled" a bush mask on a mic stand.
i agree with his stance,and political views.i'd be the last to defend bush,and as would 99.999% of us canadians

sorry, I don't know why I quoted you... but I konw you were agreeing

Heineken Helen · September 2007

Pegasus wrote:

I missed that conversation! (probably just as well! )
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:

Hahaha... that was close to the time we were going in... when we all had to line up at the wall. It finally got to the point where I said to him 'I'm sorry, I physically can't stand here anymore in this heat and I'm GOING to stand in the shade' and he said 'yeh no problem' and that was how we got talking... I said 'it's very hot' and he said 'well think about the guys in Iraq... it's like 115 over there and they've got their fatigues and all' :eek: It just came out of nowhere lol. By the end of the conversation, I preferred to stand in the heat

. I told everyone I was with but you were at the front. Some of them were pretty annoyed... I was in too much of a good mood though and I didn't go there to get into political conversations with anyone.

I did change the subject and asked him if he'd seen anything like that queue before... and he said 'oh yeh, several times... but I was on stage with Eddie Van Halen one time... it doesn't get much better than that'

I think he was confused between Vedder and Van Halen.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

I accept your point, and I understand your argument. However, it is alot easier for ANYONE to criticize Myanmar's government than it is for Americans to listen to foreigners criticize their own governments. I guess you could make this type of analogy: Is your opinion or feeling about a concert you didn't go to as valuable as someone's who did go? If you criticize a foreign policy that affects your country in some significant way, I respect your opinion and your entitled to it. But foreign policy is only part of American politics.

but it's the only part which effects US... can't you see that? I don't care if Bush is a good president otherwise... but once HIS decisions start effecting ME... well I'm bloody well entitled to my opinion on him, aren't I?

StuartC · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

but it's the only part which effects US... can't you see that? I don't care if Bush is a good president otherwise... but once HIS decisions start effecting ME... well I'm bloody well entitled to my opinion on him, aren't I?

Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?

Rhinocerous Surprise · September 2007

OffStuGoes wrote:

Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?

People in other countries may have family or friends in America directly affected by Bush. And even if they don't, human compassion means most people would feel awful if young Americans were drafted into the military. It's called empathy, guy.

Thoughts on political stuff at shows

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