Sending troops to war, some to die, based on bogued up intelligence then continually changing the justification for the war isn't illegal??? If that's not, then what is?
Yea because Saddam was such a safe wonderful person. They had WMDs and probably still do some where.(my opinion) And even if they didn't, do you want a guy ruling an oil rich country that kill hundreds of thousands of his own people? And as for the bogus info..........5 other countries had intel suggesting they did have WMDs. Do you realize that under Saddam rule you could be killed for making statements against the government as you are doing now? I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over. And it is not illegal to defend ourselves against those bastards for funding and harboring terrorists. You have ANTI-AMERICANS like Sean Penn that go over there and stand in front of buildings so we wont bomb them, putting our troops in harms way. Then complain about troops dying. Its sickening.
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
I agree with every viewpoint you have concerning the hideous regime authored by Saddam Hussein. What I don't agree with is the pre-war intel gathering and the lack of wmd found in Iraq. "In the form of a mushroom cloud..." I can appreciate that many thought Saddam had wmd, but war shouldn't be entered into without 100% assuredness that the justifications are valid. Iraqi scientists that worked in Saddam's nuclear weapons development program prior to the first Gulf War stated that Iraq had abandoned pursuit of nuclear weapons because they knew they'd be under too much scrutiny. We have military people in both wars that are sick and tired of not being able to act without 100% proven intelligence; without such affirmation the red tape holds our people up from acting during war, so why wouldn't the administration want the same intelligence before committing to war as they need to carry it out? Did you read the article in the link I posted earlier? You should. If you didn't, read this and offer some thought:
Sure, the article comes from the New Yorker, but the author also broke the story of the Mi Lai massacre.
Some of your justifications for war in Iraq could be the same justifications we could use to pacify Darfur.
Do you think that the Iraq war has made this country safer? Do you think the Iraq war has provided a massive distraction from the war in Afghanistan? Iraq has cost us the opportunity to bag those responsible for attacking us on our soil and created more terrorists. If I'm mistaken, please explain how and why.
If you would, please provide links that offer information concerning terrorists harbored and funded by Iraq that attacked US interests OUTSIDE of Iraq during Saddam's regime.
Trading magic for fact, no tradebacks... So this is what it's like to be an adult...
I hate to get involved in a straight up Iraq debate, because I have mixed feelings on the whole thing, and this isn't really a topic about the war, but rather how one feels about politics at PJ shows, we are in the Given To Fly (live) section. However it seems to be the way the topic is going, so if we must get into it, then here goes.
I don't really like to take a hard line either way. Do I dislike Bush and how he has handled this whole situation? Sure. But I also hated Saddam, all of the horrible things he has done, and I feel in most ways he brought this whole thing on himself, which he probably wanted to do. I don't think we should just pull out tomorrow, because we really are doing some great things over there for a lot of people, and who knows what would happen to them if we just up and pulled out, but I don't think it's fair for me to say we should stay, because I'm here, and not over there. I do hate the fact that the administration lied to us, and treated us like idiots when trying to gain support for the war. But I also feel like the U.N. should have stepped up, so that we wouldn't have to go to war, or at least to keep Bush from forcing the war on us, it should have been the U.N.'s responsibility. A lot of that U.N. resistance came from member countries having financial interests in the region. However Iraq wasn't complying with the Security Council Resolutions. Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first war, with the explicit orders that he comply with the terms set forth by these resolutions. When he started booting out weapons inspectors and breaking the rules set for him and his government, he essentially forfeited his power, and this should have resulted in action by the U.N.
Anybody who knows anything about the history of World War II will probably tell you it was a similar situation. I'm not comparing Hitler to Saddam, although they were both bad guys. What I mean is that the League Of Nations, basically the U.N. of old, had set forth conditions for Germany after WWI, which stated that they could not re-build their military. However after Hitler rose to power, he began to do just that. The League of Nations let this continue unchecked, not permitting a pre-emptive attack by the French military, which could have easily prevented WWII from happening, and before they knew it, it was too late, the war had begun. Most people will tell you that it's a shame that the League of Nations did nothing, and essentially let WWII happen. Prior to the Iraq war, it wasn't considered a bad thing at all to say that Germany should have been attacked, even before they started their conquest. I'm not saying Saddam would have started a world war, maybe he would have done nothing at all. And while I hate war, I couldn't help notice the similarities between the situations prior to the start of the war. Two not so nice dictators, in control of countries which were supposed to be complying with military sanctions, neither followed the laws laid before them, and in both situations the international bodies (League Of Nations/United Nations) were laying back and letting it all happen.
I hate to see a war, but I also hate to see history repeat itself in a negative way. If Saddam had done something awful, people would be griping about how nobody stopped him. And the finger probably would have been pointed at the U.S. and more specifically Bush. However Bush handled the entire situation like a complete tool, but I think somebody had to do something. That's just my two cents.
If you would, please provide links that offer information concerning terrorists harbored and funded by Iraq that attacked US interests OUTSIDE of Iraq during Saddam's regime.
I wasn't Questioning "that". I was discussing "that". So your saying that if I have a problem with "that", I know nothing of the bands IMO???????????? I do believe the 13 shows I have been to beg a differ. That brings me back to my earlier post. If I dont agree with them %100 i feel like iam an "outcast" at the show. You just helped prove my point! If I support the Bush (which again i proudly do!!) I know nothing about the band and iam an asshole? Thats just a shame.
Matt
sorry, shouldn't have quoted, wasn't directed at you, but a generalization of those that fit what I said...my bad :(
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
What really gets me is how bands like PJ and all the other anti-bush bands (and i love Pj just as much as the next and quite frankly i could care less what their belifes are) say what they want when they want and it never is a big deal but once a conservative like Nugent does the same thing its worthy of being on national news broadcasts all over the nation? Kind of shows you how the media is run by the left. Sure the dixie chicks got flac for their comments but 9 out of 10 people that disagree with what they said will tell you the main problem was that they said it overseas - if they had said it in the states it probably wouldnt have even made the news. Like i said i could care less what bands think but when bands like RATM and such make comments like they do it is only covered on Fox News, but when Nugent (one of very few conservatives in the non-country music industry) bashes Obama it is covered all over the place . . .and now im just repeating myself . . .
What really gets me is how bands like PJ and all the other anti-bush bands (and i love Pj just as much as the next and quite frankly i could care less what their belifes are) say what they want when they want and it never is a big deal but once a conservative like Nugent does the same thing its worthy of being on national news broadcasts all over the nation? Kind of shows you how the media is run by the left. Sure the dixie chicks got flac for their comments but 9 out of 10 people that disagree with what they said will tell you the main problem was that they said it overseas - if they had said it in the states it probably wouldnt have even made the news. Like i said i could care less what bands think but when bands like RATM and such make comments like they do it is only covered on Fox News, but when Nugent (one of very few conservatives in the non-country music industry) bashes Obama it is covered all over the place . . .and now im just repeating myself . . .
Well the Obama/Nugent thing was covered so heavily because Obama is still relevant, and bashing him is something new, Bush is on the way out however and Bush bashing has been going on since he was first running for president. Bush has been bashed so heavily, that to report on yet another artist trash talking him is like beating a dead horse. Bush is on his way out anyway, those currently running for President are more relevant.
Yea because Saddam was such a safe wonderful person. They had WMDs and probably still do some where.(my opinion) And even if they didn't, do you want a guy ruling an oil rich country that kill hundreds of thousands of his own people? And as for the bogus info..........5 other countries had intel suggesting they did have WMDs. Do you realize that under Saddam rule you could be killed for making statements against the government as you are doing now? I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over. And it is not illegal to defend ourselves against those bastards for funding and harboring terrorists. You have ANTI-AMERICANS like Sean Penn that go over there and stand in front of buildings so we wont bomb them, putting our troops in harms way. Then complain about troops dying. Its sickening.
Where are the WMDs? You should tell the Bush Administration... they haven't found them yet!
Also, not to go back on history lessons, but the Saddam regime was propped by the US administration (see Iran-Iraq war, due to all the issues that the US had with the Ayatollah regime/revolution of 1979 and the hostage crisis, etc.)until it suited him and Saddam's decided to become the playmaker of the region.
How is the war in Iraq a justice for the world over? I am really unclear about that... eliminating a dictator? liberating an oppressed people? who decided the US is the dispenser of justice for the whole world, and on what basis?
Also, how many other dictators or oppressive regimes are in this world and nothing is being done about it? mmm, yes, and I wonder why... By the way, of course, I am not denying that Saddam was a tyrant; the issue is that the proferred reasons for going to war put forward by the Bush administration were - and have been proven to be - false, therefore that war was illegal.
Also, as for the Iraq regime harbouring terrorists... actually Iraq has become a breeding ground/playground almost for Islamist terrorists after the American-led invasion.
Finally, as for putting American troops in harm's way... well, that responsibility rests entirely on the decision of the Bush administration, not because of anti-war protesters.
Yea because Saddam was such a safe wonderful person. They had WMDs and probably still do some where.(my opinion) And even if they didn't, do you want a guy ruling an oil rich country that kill hundreds of thousands of his own people? And as for the bogus info..........5 other countries had intel suggesting they did have WMDs. Do you realize that under Saddam rule you could be killed for making statements against the government as you are doing now? I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over. And it is not illegal to defend ourselves against those bastards for funding and harboring terrorists. You have ANTI-AMERICANS like Sean Penn that go over there and stand in front of buildings so we wont bomb them, putting our troops in harms way. Then complain about troops dying. Its sickening.
One of the most pathetic posts i've seen on these boards. Go educate yourself.
One of the most pathetic posts i've seen on these boards. Go educate yourself.
One of the most immature post I have see. Only takes a few self centered stuck up people to ruin the "good" time. Again this proves my point on people outcasting other fans because of a friendly opinion/beliefs. Ok I will admit right now I am probably not as educated as Open is.......you are smarter than me. There ya go. Theres your hard-on for being educated and better than most. But you really have proved my point. You are the type of person who "attacks" other people for not sharing your opinion, therefore ruining a good time and killing a vibe . It was pretty much the point I made in the original post. So you cant follow a simple post(in insulting me you proved my point LOL) and we are suppose to be impressed with your education? This was a discussion until you started insulting people. But its all good. To each their own. Thanks for the insight Open. Though i dont agree with you means of putting other people down I do respect your opinion. Have a good one.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
One of the most immature post I have see. Only takes a few self centered stuck up people to ruin the "good" time. Again this proves my point on people outcasting other fans because of a friendly opinion/beliefs. Ok I will admit right now I am probably not as educated as Open is.......you are smarter than me. There ya go. Theres your hard-on for being educated and better than most. But you really have proved my point. You are the type of person who "attacks" other people for not sharing your opinion, therefore ruining a good time and killing a vibe . It was pretty much the point I made in the original post. So you cant follow a simple post(in insulting me you proved my point LOL) and we are suppose to be impressed with your education? This was a discussion until you started insulting people. But its all good. To each their own. Thanks for the insight Open. Though i dont agree with you means of putting other people down I do respect your opinion. Have a good one.
Matt
No im not attacking you for not sharing my opinion, im not attacking you at all. Im asking you to research that which you discuss. Honestly, you're supporting the death of thousands, i dont consider that a good time or vibe.
No im not attacking you for not sharing my opinion, im not attacking you at all. Im asking you to research that which you discuss. Honestly, you're supporting the death of thousands, i dont consider that a good time or vibe.
You know its a shame that you have to put words into my mouth. Not once did I ever support the death of any one. I did back up my opinion. A few posts ago i provided links to what i believe to be true. But never did I state I support the death of any one. Its sad you resort to such low tactics to make your opinion/voice be heard. And i do believe that calling my opinion/beliefs "pathetic" is attacking me. Again it such a shame. Take care and have a good day.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Originally Posted by Vedder316
One of the most immature post I have see. Only takes a few self centered stuck up people to ruin the "good" time. Again this proves my point on people outcasting other fans because of a friendly opinion/beliefs. Ok I will admit right now I am probably not as educated as Open is.......you are smarter than me. There ya go. Theres your hard-on for being educated and better than most. But you really have proved my point. You are the type of person who "attacks" other people for not sharing your opinion, therefore ruining a good time and killing a vibe . It was pretty much the point I made in the original post. So you cant follow a simple post(in insulting me you proved my point LOL) and we are suppose to be impressed with your education? This was a discussion until you started insulting people. But its all good. To each their own. Thanks for the insight Open. Though i dont agree with you means of putting other people down I do respect your opinion. Have a good one.
As for the good time/vibe...I was referring to the shows. that was the topic of the post. I believe we both need to brush up our rewsearch skills....lol
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Matt ~ The first two are from 2003. The third link, to be honest, I think is bunk. For every article you find on the net that says there was a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, I can find one that debunks it.
The fact of the matter is that if such concrete evidence existed, it would have been plastered across the media and the Bush administration would have cited it until the dead horse had been beaten.
If there was such a connection, why does Dick Cheney come under immense scrutiny when he strives to sell the existence of such a connection?
Take a peak at these links; the sources (and I'm not trying to be a dick) are a little more credible than those you posted. Also, why did the 9/11 Commission refute the supposed reltaionship?
Good info Danny Boy. Thanks for providing it in a mature manor. Now iam going to sit down and eat a big helping of my own words. LOL. But seriously do you think Saddam with his pure hatred for the US never supported Qaida? It may be wrong to say without evidence but it is still my belief that they worked together in some way. But I think we can all agree that the world is much better off with out Saddam in power. This whole war is one nasty situation no matter what the belief is. Every war is. I thinks id great that both sides are vocal in their opinions. Again thats one of the reasons that makes our country so great.
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
You should really take a ganders at the article in "The New Yorker". Very informative. I've followed the war from the time I read that article in 2003 up to now and a lot information's out there, but a lot it is also slanted. My dad, a republican most of his life, saw through Bush's buildup to war and despised him and his actions. I imagine that as a conservative you put faith into your conservative leaders and give them the benefit of the doubt. War reverberates across party lines, and because I sought information that I deemed to be the most credible and formulated an opinion that is decidedly anti-war, anti-Bush. I tend to let my emotions rule my arguments but am undeclared and do vote.
I think Vedder saw through Bush's facade of terror during his quest for war in Iraq. He, especially with 20,000 people in front of him, probably lets his emotions outweigh his logic and rather than offering information (which he does at times, to his defense) he tends to let the f-bombs fly. I'm the same way though, and I agree with him, but nonetheless I'm glad to see he keeps abreast and is open with his opinions. If you read any interviews about EV's stance, he's quite eloquent. If anything, at least he implores the possibility of thought, whether you agree or diasgree with his words.
INTERVIEWER: Though you’ve always been outspoken about politics, you kicked it up a notch since Bush was elected. Some of your fans have said they don’t like the Bush bashing at shows.
EV: I guess you have to just realize this is just part and parcel of what we do. It’s not all that we do. I think you can still have a good night out and, at times, a great night of rock ‘n’ roll if you come see our group. I don’t think we are going to hit you over the head with anything. Hopefully, the music is powerful. At this time, I feel, “How can you not be talking about this stuff?” I’d be talking about it if I was a bartender. I’d be talking about it if I was a druggist. I’d be talking about it if I was the head of a corporation and how we’d deal with that. Or what was our place in the world and how we would combat these things. The fact that we’re in a band, which is one of the places you’re allowed to speak up; we don’t have stockholders we have to kowtow to or lobbyists where we’re fronting opinions for them because they are sneaking us money. If there’s any job you should be expressing yourself this kind of way it would be that of a musician or a writer. When some of these bigger problems end, we can shut up and play. And we’ll be happy doing that. I look forward to the day and welcome it. I would love to stop thinking about this stuff. That’s where the fury and frustration comes in. I’m fucking sick of dealing with this. I’m sick of living as an American and knowing that our government has run rampant and, even worse than that, has treated us like we’re idiots.
Trading magic for fact, no tradebacks... So this is what it's like to be an adult...
INTERVIEWER: Though you’ve always been outspoken about politics, you kicked it up a notch since Bush was elected. Some of your fans have said they don’t like the Bush bashing at shows.
EV: I guess you have to just realize this is just part and parcel of what we do. It’s not all that we do. I think you can still have a good night out and, at times, a great night of rock ‘n’ roll if you come see our group. I don’t think we are going to hit you over the head with anything. Hopefully, the music is powerful. At this time, I feel, “How can you not be talking about this stuff?” I’d be talking about it if I was a bartender. I’d be talking about it if I was a druggist. I’d be talking about it if I was the head of a corporation and how we’d deal with that. Or what was our place in the world and how we would combat these things. The fact that we’re in a band, which is one of the places you’re allowed to speak up; we don’t have stockholders we have to kowtow to or lobbyists where we’re fronting opinions for them because they are sneaking us money. If there’s any job you should be expressing yourself this kind of way it would be that of a musician or a writer. When some of these bigger problems end, we can shut up and play. And we’ll be happy doing that. I look forward to the day and welcome it. I would love to stop thinking about this stuff. That’s where the fury and frustration comes in. I’m fucking sick of dealing with this. I’m sick of living as an American and knowing that our government has run rampant and, even worse than that, has treated us like we’re idiots.
Great piece Danny Boy! I agree with him. We should be talking about this. But I do think it could be discussed with less negativity. Never the less It will never prevent me from see the band. In fact my lovely wife agrees with them so it makes for some nice discussions between us. I just wish some people where more open to others opinions. As you can see all over the forums some can rather ignorant to some peoples beliefs. I think the way Eddie states his opinions (some times negative) makes people very nasty towards others in agreeing with him. Alot of people hear him and that think "its Eddie Vedder I have to agree with him". "He is the lead singer of my favorite band", and do not form their own opinions. (Ala Ralph Nadder) Oh well. Good talking to everyone. Take care.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
You know its a shame that you have to put words into my mouth. Not once did I ever support the death of any one. I did back up my opinion. A few posts ago i provided links to what i believe to be true. But never did I state I support the death of any one. Its sad you resort to such low tactics to make your opinion/voice be heard. And i do believe that calling my opinion/beliefs "pathetic" is attacking me. Again it such a shame. Take care and have a good day.
Matt
I didnt put words in your mouth "I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over." that is a quote from you. I think the dead would disagree with you.
In response to the general notion about my comment that the war is not 'illegal':
By saying that this war is not illegal, I am not justifying it. I am just saying that there is no such thing as an 'illegal' war, as well as no 'legal' war. If you believe that there are really statutes that dictate what is and is not fair in terms of military combat, you are probably living in a fairy tale world.
You can throw at me Geneva Accords, UN treaties, and other international agreements, but they are all really futile- and I am sorry to say that.
And on one last point, if you want to make this a discussion of abuse of executive powers, go read article II of the U.S. Constitution and tell me what it clearly states... it can't be done, it's too ambiguous.
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
I didnt put words in your mouth "I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over." that is a quote from you. I think the dead would disagree with you.
Man thats sad. Never once did I support the death of the situation and I think the other would agree with me.(thoughts from others?) Its sad that you would sink that low to prove a point. Sounds like you have had happier times. I hope things get better for ya.
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
I just watched the VH1 storytellers and man did Ed really explain the whole topic of the original questions raised in my very 1st post. The question asked was........"How do you about having a contingency of fans that have different ideologies than all of you". After Ed says F**k em (LOL) his answer really is a good one. Open maybe you should you should follow Ed's words of wisdom. "I RESPECT OTHERS OPNIONS"!!!!!!
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
I love the sections where Ed chats to the crowd. I think they add to the shows, and he often makes connections with the audience. They also individualise every show and make them more memorable.
As far as his politics goes...why shouldn't he talk about Bush e.t.c? The worlds being fucked by these people. The more people highlight this fact, the better.
Iam not saying that he banters on and on. Iam just saying the negativity that Eddie displays sometimes in his messages just brings the show down a bit.
I don't ever get any negativity from Ed or the rest of the band. What negativity are you talking about? Care to provide an example? Even when he talks politics he still manags to ingest some humour into it. I see him as a naturally positive fella, not a negative type.
I just watched the VH1 storytellers and man did Ed really explain the whole topic of the original questions raised in my very 1st post. The question asked was........"How do you about having a contingency of fans that have different ideologies than all of you". After Ed says F**k em (LOL) his answer really is a good one. Open maybe you should you should follow Ed's words of wisdom. "I RESPECT OTHERS OPNIONS"!!!!!!
I respect your opinion, but when it's one that supports the death of innocents...the respect is very minimal.
P.S. I really do think Ed meant the fuckem. How can you go jam out to something that's against your beliefs? It's like going to a KKK rally to find god.
I respect your opinion, but when it's one that supports the death of innocents...the respect is very minimal.
P.S. I really do think Ed meant the fuckem. How can you go jam out to something that's against your beliefs? It's like going to a KKK rally to find god.
AGAIN I never said i support the "death" just the cause. Please support you claims. I could easily stoop to the level you did and spin your above comments and say..... "Open supports the KKK or supports the death because he respects my opinion. But I will not do that. So you think Ed was lying to everyone with what he said after the fuckem quote? So in regards to that you support someone you believe lies to the people he speaks to?? Dont you find that to be a tad hypocritical considering the subject we've been having a piss contest about? Have a good one.
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
AGAIN I never said i support the "death" just the cause. Please support you claims. I could easily stoop to the level you did and spin your above comments and say..... "Open supports the KKK or supports the death because he respects my opinion. But I will not do that. So you think Ed was lying to everyone with what he said after the fuckem quote? So in regards to that you support someone you believe lies to the people he speaks to?? Dont you find that to be a tad hypocritical considering the subject we've been having a piss contest about? Have a good one.
The policy you support, results in the death of thousands. Maybe if you see that you will stop supporting it. I never said you support the kkk it was an anology. Im not going to agree with every word eddie has to say, my feelings about the war and those who support it were formed through many conversations with those people, not with what eddie had to say. Regarding your lying example, it's a desperate reach. Singing along to bushleager while supporting bush is quite different than eddie saying fuckm half meaning it while going on to explain that he hoped it causes them to do research and educate themselves about the subject. WHich is basically what i told you .
The policy you support, results in the death of thousands. Maybe if you see that you will stop supporting it. I never said you support the kkk it was an anology. Im not going to agree with every word eddie has to say, my feelings about the war and those who support it were formed through many conversations with those people, not with what eddie had to say. Regarding your lying example, it's a desperate reach. Singing along to bushleager while supporting bush is quite different than eddie saying fuckm half meaning it while going on to explain that he hoped it causes them to do research and educate themselves about the subject. WHich is basically what i told you .
Man open I dont think we will ever agree on much. I did educate myself and formed my own opinion. Just because it not the same as yours does not mean iam not educated. This is not about who is right and wrong. We are both just trying to out each other. We both have different beliefs and opinions in which we will never agree. But should our differences cause us to be negative towards each other? Their is really no use bantering back and forth. It would be never ending. I respect you for being so strong in your beliefs and standing up for them. I applaud your desire to express your own thoughts and to stand up for what you believe in. Your a great American for doing so. I do apologize for letting the discussion get into a pissing contest. Thats not what it all about. Hopefully we can be an example to all the negativity that usually accompanies discussions like ours and agree that we disagree. But please realize that just because i support the war does not mean iam am saddened deeply by anyone that has been hurt by hardships of war. Take care.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Comments
Yea because Saddam was such a safe wonderful person. They had WMDs and probably still do some where.(my opinion) And even if they didn't, do you want a guy ruling an oil rich country that kill hundreds of thousands of his own people? And as for the bogus info..........5 other countries had intel suggesting they did have WMDs. Do you realize that under Saddam rule you could be killed for making statements against the government as you are doing now? I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over. And it is not illegal to defend ourselves against those bastards for funding and harboring terrorists. You have ANTI-AMERICANS like Sean Penn that go over there and stand in front of buildings so we wont bomb them, putting our troops in harms way. Then complain about troops dying. Its sickening.
Love ya Punkinfur
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027fa_fact
Sure, the article comes from the New Yorker, but the author also broke the story of the Mi Lai massacre.
Some of your justifications for war in Iraq could be the same justifications we could use to pacify Darfur.
Do you think that the Iraq war has made this country safer? Do you think the Iraq war has provided a massive distraction from the war in Afghanistan? Iraq has cost us the opportunity to bag those responsible for attacking us on our soil and created more terrorists. If I'm mistaken, please explain how and why.
If you would, please provide links that offer information concerning terrorists harbored and funded by Iraq that attacked US interests OUTSIDE of Iraq during Saddam's regime.
I don't really like to take a hard line either way. Do I dislike Bush and how he has handled this whole situation? Sure. But I also hated Saddam, all of the horrible things he has done, and I feel in most ways he brought this whole thing on himself, which he probably wanted to do. I don't think we should just pull out tomorrow, because we really are doing some great things over there for a lot of people, and who knows what would happen to them if we just up and pulled out, but I don't think it's fair for me to say we should stay, because I'm here, and not over there. I do hate the fact that the administration lied to us, and treated us like idiots when trying to gain support for the war. But I also feel like the U.N. should have stepped up, so that we wouldn't have to go to war, or at least to keep Bush from forcing the war on us, it should have been the U.N.'s responsibility. A lot of that U.N. resistance came from member countries having financial interests in the region. However Iraq wasn't complying with the Security Council Resolutions. Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first war, with the explicit orders that he comply with the terms set forth by these resolutions. When he started booting out weapons inspectors and breaking the rules set for him and his government, he essentially forfeited his power, and this should have resulted in action by the U.N.
Anybody who knows anything about the history of World War II will probably tell you it was a similar situation. I'm not comparing Hitler to Saddam, although they were both bad guys. What I mean is that the League Of Nations, basically the U.N. of old, had set forth conditions for Germany after WWI, which stated that they could not re-build their military. However after Hitler rose to power, he began to do just that. The League of Nations let this continue unchecked, not permitting a pre-emptive attack by the French military, which could have easily prevented WWII from happening, and before they knew it, it was too late, the war had begun. Most people will tell you that it's a shame that the League of Nations did nothing, and essentially let WWII happen. Prior to the Iraq war, it wasn't considered a bad thing at all to say that Germany should have been attacked, even before they started their conquest. I'm not saying Saddam would have started a world war, maybe he would have done nothing at all. And while I hate war, I couldn't help notice the similarities between the situations prior to the start of the war. Two not so nice dictators, in control of countries which were supposed to be complying with military sanctions, neither followed the laws laid before them, and in both situations the international bodies (League Of Nations/United Nations) were laying back and letting it all happen.
I hate to see a war, but I also hate to see history repeat itself in a negative way. If Saddam had done something awful, people would be griping about how nobody stopped him. And the finger probably would have been pointed at the U.S. and more specifically Bush. However Bush handled the entire situation like a complete tool, but I think somebody had to do something. That's just my two cents.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/033jgqyi.asp
http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Nov-03/251103.html
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/09/picture-proof-saddam-al-qaeda.html
http://www.floppingaces.net/iraqalqaeda-connection/
Hope this helps. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
sorry, shouldn't have quoted, wasn't directed at you, but a generalization of those that fit what I said...my bad :(
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Well the Obama/Nugent thing was covered so heavily because Obama is still relevant, and bashing him is something new, Bush is on the way out however and Bush bashing has been going on since he was first running for president. Bush has been bashed so heavily, that to report on yet another artist trash talking him is like beating a dead horse. Bush is on his way out anyway, those currently running for President are more relevant.
Actually, plenty of people would use that word. The war in Iraq was not sanctioned under international war, hence its illegality.
Indeed I believe one of the neocons declared its illegality... hold on, let me google it...
" influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal"
full article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1089158,00.html
Anyhow, we're not in the Moving Train, so I'll stop!
ETA: check this out too:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6917.htm
Where are the WMDs? You should tell the Bush Administration... they haven't found them yet!
Also, not to go back on history lessons, but the Saddam regime was propped by the US administration (see Iran-Iraq war, due to all the issues that the US had with the Ayatollah regime/revolution of 1979 and the hostage crisis, etc.)until it suited him and Saddam's decided to become the playmaker of the region.
How is the war in Iraq a justice for the world over? I am really unclear about that... eliminating a dictator? liberating an oppressed people? who decided the US is the dispenser of justice for the whole world, and on what basis?
Also, how many other dictators or oppressive regimes are in this world and nothing is being done about it? mmm, yes, and I wonder why... By the way, of course, I am not denying that Saddam was a tyrant; the issue is that the proferred reasons for going to war put forward by the Bush administration were - and have been proven to be - false, therefore that war was illegal.
Also, as for the Iraq regime harbouring terrorists... actually Iraq has become a breeding ground/playground almost for Islamist terrorists after the American-led invasion.
Finally, as for putting American troops in harm's way... well, that responsibility rests entirely on the decision of the Bush administration, not because of anti-war protesters.
One of the most pathetic posts i've seen on these boards. Go educate yourself.
One of the most immature post I have see. Only takes a few self centered stuck up people to ruin the "good" time. Again this proves my point on people outcasting other fans because of a friendly opinion/beliefs. Ok I will admit right now I am probably not as educated as Open is.......you are smarter than me. There ya go. Theres your hard-on for being educated and better than most. But you really have proved my point. You are the type of person who "attacks" other people for not sharing your opinion, therefore ruining a good time and killing a vibe . It was pretty much the point I made in the original post. So you cant follow a simple post(in insulting me you proved my point LOL) and we are suppose to be impressed with your education? This was a discussion until you started insulting people. But its all good. To each their own. Thanks for the insight Open. Though i dont agree with you means of putting other people down I do respect your opinion. Have a good one.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
No im not attacking you for not sharing my opinion, im not attacking you at all. Im asking you to research that which you discuss. Honestly, you're supporting the death of thousands, i dont consider that a good time or vibe.
You know its a shame that you have to put words into my mouth. Not once did I ever support the death of any one. I did back up my opinion. A few posts ago i provided links to what i believe to be true. But never did I state I support the death of any one. Its sad you resort to such low tactics to make your opinion/voice be heard. And i do believe that calling my opinion/beliefs "pathetic" is attacking me. Again it such a shame. Take care and have a good day.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
One of the most immature post I have see. Only takes a few self centered stuck up people to ruin the "good" time. Again this proves my point on people outcasting other fans because of a friendly opinion/beliefs. Ok I will admit right now I am probably not as educated as Open is.......you are smarter than me. There ya go. Theres your hard-on for being educated and better than most. But you really have proved my point. You are the type of person who "attacks" other people for not sharing your opinion, therefore ruining a good time and killing a vibe . It was pretty much the point I made in the original post. So you cant follow a simple post(in insulting me you proved my point LOL) and we are suppose to be impressed with your education? This was a discussion until you started insulting people. But its all good. To each their own. Thanks for the insight Open. Though i dont agree with you means of putting other people down I do respect your opinion. Have a good one.
As for the good time/vibe...I was referring to the shows. that was the topic of the post. I believe we both need to brush up our rewsearch skills....lol
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Matt ~ The first two are from 2003. The third link, to be honest, I think is bunk. For every article you find on the net that says there was a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda, I can find one that debunks it.
The fact of the matter is that if such concrete evidence existed, it would have been plastered across the media and the Bush administration would have cited it until the dead horse had been beaten.
If there was such a connection, why does Dick Cheney come under immense scrutiny when he strives to sell the existence of such a connection?
Take a peak at these links; the sources (and I'm not trying to be a dick) are a little more credible than those you posted. Also, why did the 9/11 Commission refute the supposed reltaionship?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0406/p99s01-duts.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/
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I think Vedder saw through Bush's facade of terror during his quest for war in Iraq. He, especially with 20,000 people in front of him, probably lets his emotions outweigh his logic and rather than offering information (which he does at times, to his defense) he tends to let the f-bombs fly. I'm the same way though, and I agree with him, but nonetheless I'm glad to see he keeps abreast and is open with his opinions. If you read any interviews about EV's stance, he's quite eloquent. If anything, at least he implores the possibility of thought, whether you agree or diasgree with his words.
http://www.magnetmagazine.com/interviews/vedder.html
Here's a snippet...
INTERVIEWER: Though you’ve always been outspoken about politics, you kicked it up a notch since Bush was elected. Some of your fans have said they don’t like the Bush bashing at shows.
EV: I guess you have to just realize this is just part and parcel of what we do. It’s not all that we do. I think you can still have a good night out and, at times, a great night of rock ‘n’ roll if you come see our group. I don’t think we are going to hit you over the head with anything. Hopefully, the music is powerful. At this time, I feel, “How can you not be talking about this stuff?” I’d be talking about it if I was a bartender. I’d be talking about it if I was a druggist. I’d be talking about it if I was the head of a corporation and how we’d deal with that. Or what was our place in the world and how we would combat these things. The fact that we’re in a band, which is one of the places you’re allowed to speak up; we don’t have stockholders we have to kowtow to or lobbyists where we’re fronting opinions for them because they are sneaking us money. If there’s any job you should be expressing yourself this kind of way it would be that of a musician or a writer. When some of these bigger problems end, we can shut up and play. And we’ll be happy doing that. I look forward to the day and welcome it. I would love to stop thinking about this stuff. That’s where the fury and frustration comes in. I’m fucking sick of dealing with this. I’m sick of living as an American and knowing that our government has run rampant and, even worse than that, has treated us like we’re idiots.
Great piece Danny Boy! I agree with him. We should be talking about this. But I do think it could be discussed with less negativity. Never the less It will never prevent me from see the band. In fact my lovely wife agrees with them so it makes for some nice discussions between us. I just wish some people where more open to others opinions. As you can see all over the forums some can rather ignorant to some peoples beliefs. I think the way Eddie states his opinions (some times negative) makes people very nasty towards others in agreeing with him. Alot of people hear him and that think "its Eddie Vedder I have to agree with him". "He is the lead singer of my favorite band", and do not form their own opinions. (Ala Ralph Nadder) Oh well. Good talking to everyone. Take care.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
I didnt put words in your mouth "I think what we are doing over there is a great justice for the world over." that is a quote from you. I think the dead would disagree with you.
By saying that this war is not illegal, I am not justifying it. I am just saying that there is no such thing as an 'illegal' war, as well as no 'legal' war. If you believe that there are really statutes that dictate what is and is not fair in terms of military combat, you are probably living in a fairy tale world.
You can throw at me Geneva Accords, UN treaties, and other international agreements, but they are all really futile- and I am sorry to say that.
And on one last point, if you want to make this a discussion of abuse of executive powers, go read article II of the U.S. Constitution and tell me what it clearly states... it can't be done, it's too ambiguous.
Man thats sad. Never once did I support the death of the situation and I think the other would agree with me.(thoughts from others?) Its sad that you would sink that low to prove a point. Sounds like you have had happier times. I hope things get better for ya.
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As far as his politics goes...why shouldn't he talk about Bush e.t.c? The worlds being fucked by these people. The more people highlight this fact, the better.
I don't ever get any negativity from Ed or the rest of the band. What negativity are you talking about? Care to provide an example? Even when he talks politics he still manags to ingest some humour into it. I see him as a naturally positive fella, not a negative type.
I respect your opinion, but when it's one that supports the death of innocents...the respect is very minimal.
P.S. I really do think Ed meant the fuckem. How can you go jam out to something that's against your beliefs? It's like going to a KKK rally to find god.
AGAIN I never said i support the "death" just the cause. Please support you claims. I could easily stoop to the level you did and spin your above comments and say..... "Open supports the KKK or supports the death because he respects my opinion. But I will not do that. So you think Ed was lying to everyone with what he said after the fuckem quote? So in regards to that you support someone you believe lies to the people he speaks to?? Dont you find that to be a tad hypocritical considering the subject we've been having a piss contest about? Have a good one.
Love ya Punkinfur
The policy you support, results in the death of thousands. Maybe if you see that you will stop supporting it. I never said you support the kkk it was an anology. Im not going to agree with every word eddie has to say, my feelings about the war and those who support it were formed through many conversations with those people, not with what eddie had to say. Regarding your lying example, it's a desperate reach. Singing along to bushleager while supporting bush is quite different than eddie saying fuckm half meaning it while going on to explain that he hoped it causes them to do research and educate themselves about the subject. WHich is basically what i told you .
Man open I dont think we will ever agree on much. I did educate myself and formed my own opinion. Just because it not the same as yours does not mean iam not educated. This is not about who is right and wrong. We are both just trying to out each other. We both have different beliefs and opinions in which we will never agree. But should our differences cause us to be negative towards each other? Their is really no use bantering back and forth. It would be never ending. I respect you for being so strong in your beliefs and standing up for them. I applaud your desire to express your own thoughts and to stand up for what you believe in. Your a great American for doing so. I do apologize for letting the discussion get into a pissing contest. Thats not what it all about. Hopefully we can be an example to all the negativity that usually accompanies discussions like ours and agree that we disagree. But please realize that just because i support the war does not mean iam am saddened deeply by anyone that has been hurt by hardships of war. Take care.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur