but really this is about whether or not foreignors should be included in conversation that is not about their own politics and government.
when the politics and government of other countries are not purely domestic but affect other countries then definitely (and I'll argue even if they are domestic you are entitled to an opinion anyway, and to express it).
what you do with those expressed opinion, it's your choice, but I'll least you'll be aware that there are other point of views and other solutions.
You can't MAKE Americans change their politics, but you can inform them that there's other models..(and it's true with other countries...would you say you're not entitle to criticise other regime, like Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea?..America does it all the time: Iran, Iraq, South America...and far more than just commenting too!)
why should he need to be careful? Isn't America the land of free speech and all that bollox? A security guard at the vic brought up the Iraq thing with me and going on about uncivilised people and all that. I replied who's uncivilised? And he said 'oh ya know... the middle east'. :rolleyes: I reminded him we've had our problems in Ireland too and he said 'oh Ireland... that's a strange country... I wanna go there some day' :eek: I shoulda told him to come on over but I din't try and convince him, lol. Point is the entire time he was looking at me smugly for a reaction... I didn't give it. It was very fucking intimidating. I don't like having to keep my opinions to myself and I would imagine that the US of good ole A would appreciate freedom of speech?
I missed that conversation! (probably just as well! )
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:
Some people might disagree, but usually I'm honestly interested in what he has to say about local and nationwide politics. He has some interesting opinions and usually they are very funny.
when the politics and government of other countries are not purely domestic but affect other countries then definitely (and I'll argue even if they are domestic you are entitled to an opinion anyway, and to express it).
what you do with those expressed opinion, it's your choice, but I'll least you'll be aware that there are other point of views and other solutions.
You can't MAKE Americans change their politics, but you can inform them that there's other models..(and it's true with other countries...would you say you're not entitle to criticise other regime, like Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea?..America does it all the time: Iran, Iraq, South America...and far more than just commenting too!)
I accept your point, and I understand your argument. However, it is alot easier for ANYONE to criticize Myanmar's government than it is for Americans to listen to foreigners criticize their own governments. I guess you could make this type of analogy: Is your opinion or feeling about a concert you didn't go to as valuable as someone's who did go? If you criticize a foreign policy that affects your country in some significant way, I respect your opinion and your entitled to it. But foreign policy is only part of American politics.
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
I missed that conversation! (probably just as well! )
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:
Wow Pegasus, are we going to combine two arguments? Hahaha. First off, when you look at the sheer size of America, with all it's cities and urban centers, the crime stats are going to be bloated. It is a little ridiculous I'll admit, because it's rednecks from the southern U.S. defending gun rights while it's people in northern citites killing each other... but besides that, I would not call where I'm from or where most other Americans from uncivilized. And not to take any shots, but being from London Im sure you know about some of the bad areas around Elephant & Castle, which I have witnessed first hand. When I was visiting back in April, there was a really bad streak of teen gun-related deaths. I think it is safe to say that everybody has their own problems with violence and homicide, but I must say, there are no gunfights on my street outside, or any streets nearby for that matter. Yes, in America we do wear clothes, speak English, and eat with forks and knives (or at least most of the time).
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
you totally misunderstood my statement.
i just meant that ed was criticised terribly when he "impaled" a bush mask on a mic stand.
i agree with his stance,and political views.i'd be the last to defend bush,and as would 99.999% of us canadians
sorry, I don't know why I quoted you... but I konw you were agreeing
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I missed that conversation! (probably just as well! )
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:
Hahaha... that was close to the time we were going in... when we all had to line up at the wall. It finally got to the point where I said to him 'I'm sorry, I physically can't stand here anymore in this heat and I'm GOING to stand in the shade' and he said 'yeh no problem' and that was how we got talking... I said 'it's very hot' and he said 'well think about the guys in Iraq... it's like 115 over there and they've got their fatigues and all' :eek: It just came out of nowhere lol. By the end of the conversation, I preferred to stand in the heat . I told everyone I was with but you were at the front. Some of them were pretty annoyed... I was in too much of a good mood though and I didn't go there to get into political conversations with anyone.
I did change the subject and asked him if he'd seen anything like that queue before... and he said 'oh yeh, several times... but I was on stage with Eddie Van Halen one time... it doesn't get much better than that' I think he was confused between Vedder and Van Halen.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I accept your point, and I understand your argument. However, it is alot easier for ANYONE to criticize Myanmar's government than it is for Americans to listen to foreigners criticize their own governments. I guess you could make this type of analogy: Is your opinion or feeling about a concert you didn't go to as valuable as someone's who did go? If you criticize a foreign policy that affects your country in some significant way, I respect your opinion and your entitled to it. But foreign policy is only part of American politics.
but it's the only part which effects US... can't you see that? I don't care if Bush is a good president otherwise... but once HIS decisions start effecting ME... well I'm bloody well entitled to my opinion on him, aren't I?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
but it's the only part which effects US... can't you see that? I don't care if Bush is a good president otherwise... but once HIS decisions start effecting ME... well I'm bloody well entitled to my opinion on him, aren't I?
Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?
People in other countries may have family or friends in America directly affected by Bush. And even if they don't, human compassion means most people would feel awful if young Americans were drafted into the military. It's called empathy, guy.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
Also, I'd like to say that they should not talk American politics while touring abroad. The main reason being that the people probably just don't care, but also, I do not think Eddie should be including foreigners in a conversation about American politics. It is not their country to criticize, and as an American I don't appreciate Eddie instigating sour thoughts about my president and my congress no matter how dysfunctional and mindnumbing they really are.
Well, US foreign policy does have an effect on other countries, too, so of course non-American citizens can criticise it, even though they cannot have a direct say with voting!
Also, it's not really what Eddie might say that "instigates our thoughts on your president", but rather your president's actions and decisions are just enough for that.
....What is happening in Iraq to innocent citizens is horrible. There should be more humanitarian aide, and more international involvment in quelling the citizen death toll....
Funny though how international co-operation was totally disregarded when the Bush administration decided to depose the Iraqi regime.. on an illegal basis, one might add.
Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?
I never said I was nearly as effected by Bush as you are I said he DOES effect me... and NOT in a type of chain reaction. It's a pretty direct effect. I'm entitled to bitch about all that. I know you could be drafted and that wouldn't be something you'd be ALLOWED to consider... am I supposed to just sit back and watch and not feel any sort of sympathy for you if that were the case?
And, no offense, but you're all a bit dramatic about the troops. My brother's in the Irish army and has volunteered to go to places like Lebanon, Liberia and Kosovo as peace keeping and peace making. Obviously not AS dangerous as a direct war zone... but still bloody dangerous. He has said he'd go to Iraq if it did turn into a peace making thing. Sure I'd be upset if he went but I Have to accept the fact that it's his job and this is what he has CHOSEN to do and there's nothing I can do about that. Those who are in the US army signed up knowing what they were getting into. Sure, I don't want any of them over there and I do feel sorry for them but if they weren't there, there'd be no war.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I'll criticise whatever the fuck I feel like, and so should everyone else.
i'm criticising your right to criticise stuff
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I noticed earlier some people talking about how they hate going to shows where there is no communication between the band and the audience, even if the rest of the show was great. And I totally agree, but the band can communicate and interact with the audience without discussing politics. I'm not saying they shouldn't discuss politics, and as others have said, I usually agree with their politics, but I don't agree with this idea that it isn't a good PJ show if there isn't some Bush-bashing. The guys can, and have, played around and interacted with the crowd without bringing up issues that might make paying attendees feel alienated. As others have said as well, there's plenty to think of politically in the songs, that they don't really need to stop the music to discuss it with the crowd. I don't agree with the "shut up and play" mentality, but it is promoted as a Pearl Jam Concert, not a Pearl Jam Concert/Political Rally. So I can see how somebody who shows up not expecting to get an earful of political opinions could get a little miffed, though we the long time fans know to expect it.
I once took a friend of mine with me to a PJ show, and he is just a casual fan, it was his first show. Now this guy probably couldn't have agreed more with the guys in the band on all the issues if he tried, and he's very active in discussing and practicing his beliefs. However he was a little peeved after the show, because he paid to see a concert. I guess maybe I should have warned him that he should expect a few speeches.
As far as discussing American politics in foreign countries, I don't really care. They can do what they want, and there really isn't anything wrong with that, but it does seem a little cheap sometimes, because it's guaranteed applause. Other bands have been accused of that too, Green Day being one of the first to come to mind, bashing the U.S. or it's government overseas in an attempt to pander to the crowd. And that was one of the things that got the Dixie Chicks in trouble, from what I've heard. I was never a fan so I don't know, but I was led to believe that part of the reasoning for the big fall out they had was that on their tour of the U.S. they never really said anything offensive to the pro-Bush crowds, then as soon as they went overseas, where there was a strong anti-American sentiment, they then decided to start bad mouthing. And that was seen as kind of cowardly, and also "selling out" their country to pander to the crowd who they knew would eat it up. And while I have nothing against the Dixie Chicks, I did think it was a pretty cheap move, if that was really their opinion and they felt so strongly about it, they should say it over here as well as overseas, because it ended up looking like they were just playing to the audience. It's kind of an "if you're going to say something say it to our face" type of thing. I say all of that to say this.
At least with Pearl Jam, you know they aren't going to say anything in France, or the UK, that they wouldn't say in Houston, Texas. Even if a few Houstonites might get a little offended.
I was just driving home from work and the local radio station was just discussing the whole Ted Nugent thing where he bashed Obama at one of his shows and it got me to thinking. I attended 4 PJ shows in 2006, all which where awesome. At every show there was alot of discussion of George W, the war, Ann Coulter and even Fox News. All of the discussion was rather negative which sort of bothered me. Dont we hear enough of that shit EVERY WHERE in our normal day to day lives? I go to a concert to escape my normal day to day life. Even know I agree with most of whats being said and iam %100 in support of free speech I find it to be sort of a drag. I think the point can be displayed mighty well in a song Ala world wide suiciiiiiiiiiiide!!!!! I just feel it dampens the show. If you have a message or a feeling then sing/play about it. They could go on any tv radio or Internet site ect where its is more appropriate to discuss things like that. anytime they want. Or we could just hang out and B.S. (I WISH!!!) As Zappa once said "shut up and play your fucking guitars " Now with that said none of this will ever prevent me form seeing them, buying records ect. For they are the grandest band in the land. Thoughts??????
Paul
Pearl Jam has always been political, in their music, their activism, their actions, and their words, anyone that questions that, knows nothing of the band, and anyone that has a problem of it, knows nothing of the band IMO
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
As far as discussing American politics in foreign countries, I don't really care. They can do what they want, and there really isn't anything wrong with that, but it does seem a little cheap sometimes, because it's guaranteed applause.
ya know I'd actually kinda agree with ya there. I'm not gonna stop Ed saying what he wants, I couldn't if I wanted anyway but to come out with anti bush stuff in Europe IS guaranteed applause... There's no point, like we've all agreed here, europeans don't have a vote anyway in american elections.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
However he was a little peeved after the show, because he paid to see a concert. .
Given the length of PJ shows, even with the speeches, your friend got more music out of them than most bands. His interaction/speeches/rants are all part of the gig.
Pearl Jam has always been political, in their music, their activism, their actions, and their words, anyone that questions that, knows nothing of the band, and anyone that has a problem of it, knows nothing of the band IMO
I wasn't Questioning "that". I was discussing "that". So your saying that if I have a problem with "that", I know nothing of the bands IMO???????????? I do believe the 13 shows I have been to beg a differ. That brings me back to my earlier post. If I dont agree with them %100 i feel like iam an "outcast" at the show. You just helped prove my point! If I support the Bush (which again i proudly do!!) I know nothing about the band and iam an asshole? Thats just a shame.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
I wasn't Questioning "that". I was discussing "that". So your saying that if I have a problem with "that", I know nothing of the bands IMO???????????? I do believe the 13 shows I have been to beg a differ. That brings me back to my earlier post. If I dont agree with them %100 i feel like iam an "outcast" at the show. You just helped prove my point! If I support the Bush (which again i proudly do!!) I know nothing about the band and iam an asshole? Thats just a shame.
Matt
You shouldn't feel like an outcast at a show, and I don't really think that is what the band is going for. Though I'm sure many people end up feeling that way, which sucks. You are more than welcome to have your own political beliefs, and I think the band would support that, although they may try to debate you on your support of Bush. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, so if this applies to anybody, well tough, but in my years as a PJ fan I have spoken to many other fans, in person, as well as over the internet, and there are many who kind of act like sheep. I remember talking to a guy and his girlfriend before a PJ show, they had driven down from Michigan. Anyway we were discussing politics, and it turned out these two were out-spoken Nader supporters. This was fine with me, though I'm not a big fan of his, and I brought up a few of my concerns with Ralph to have a bit of a friendly debate, and it soon became clear that these people knew nothing about Ralph Nader's politics, basically all they knew was that Ed supported him. So they were prepared to cast a completely un-informed vote for a candidate, just because somebody they looked up to supported him. I don't know Ed, but after hearing him speak many times at concerts, he seems to be trying to educate people rather than trying to get them to just vote his way. I would think he would prefer somebody cast an informed vote for a candidate he doesn't like, than an un-informed one for a candidate he does. If everybody votes for a candidate just because somebody else told them to, then that's not democracy.
Basically what I'm saying is that you shouldn't feel like an outcast just because you may support a different candidate than a majority of the people in attendance. If that's your political opinion, and an informed one, then knock yourself out. If you show up in an "I HEART BUSH" shirt, you aren't going to be lynched, in fact people will probably just think you're being ironic and find it funny. Also, I don't see where anybody called you an asshole. Maybe I just missed it, but you might want to calm down. I do see some not so friendly and elitist sounding replies, but there's no need to go putting words like asshole into other peoples mouths. If somebody did call you that and I just don't see it, I'm sorry, and that was very immature of them.
Nice thread ~ I dig the sharing of thoughts and feel the need to throw in my two cents. One thing we should keep in mind is the relationship bewteen music, culture and history. I applaud Pearl Jam and EV specifically for having the stones to stand in front of thousands of people and say what he feels regardless of who he might offend. Imagine how watered down music would have been if political dissent did not penetrate the creative abilities of so many musicians who spoke up in the past. Imagine the Beatles without "Revolution" or CCR without "Fortunate Son". And I'll ask, how many bands these days are doing the same, writing creative songs to drive people to consider a point of view or even just consider the status quo? Not many other than Pearl Jam come to mind.
I wasn't around until 1975 and didn't live through that era of anti-war, anti-Vietnam music, but embrace those artists and their gall to speak out against something that they deem un-American or poor policy. And that's all EV does and has done since the beginning... see Live @ the Show Box when he tagged "War" and belted angrily and apologized to those friends of his in the service in the audience who might not concur with his views. War should be the last option. He stated his rationale and I've been at numerous shows where he's spoken politically sans anger egging people to vote and at least consider issues. When Pearl Jam has Get-Out-the-Vote rallies at their shows, I'd say they're doing more than pandering. And I'd venture to say that the number of people inspired to investigate an issue or vote is far greater than the number of people he's offended by bashing Bush. Bush has been and always will be an asshole - I've thought this since 2003 when Seymour Hersh penned an article in The New Yorker that criticized pre-war intel and the adminsitration's pursuit of war. If you follow the Iraq issue, you should take a ganders. And keep in mind, this was written in 2003!!!
As an American citizen who's done some travelling (Canada, México, a semester of grad school in Syndey) and with a degree in Spanish, I value the opinions of foreigners. I keep in touch with some of my aussie friends and anti-American sentiment there sounds as if it's at its highest point. And they're our fucking allies. For those of you who think non-Americans should keep their nose out of our business, I say they should be commended for paying heed to international politics. Look at the voter turnout in the recent French presidential elections versus the American turnout in the 2004 elections. Fucking sad. I'd venture to say that more foreigners keep tabs on our actions than our own citizens do. Our policy as the world's dominant country does affect billions of people and those who are affected should be able to weigh in at their heart's content. Iraq is Bush's war and look at how many families of British families (for one example) have been affected when they lost loved ones because Blair follwed GW blindly. Look at how many countries harbor thousand upon thousands of Iraqi refugees ~ these people are affected DIRECTLY by American foreign policy. Then compare the number of Iraqi refugees in those countries to the number of Iraqis we've let enter our country. Tell them to keep their mouths shut. Somebody mentioned that EV is willing to say the same shit in Houston as he is in Paris -- so, so correct.
Lastly, for those of you who were at Camden I, I think EV spoke out politically and had every person in the house standing. He had three (I think) ex-cons onstage who had been released from prison after being found innocent. I think they had served somewhere in the ballpark of 50 years combined. They had all taken an interest in music while in the pen and Pearl Jam brought them up to help out with Last Kiss. Vedder announced their names and gave the crowd some background and it was fucking awesome. Splendid. It was political in nature as a critique of the flaws in our system, but not all of EV's politics are bad.
Vedder 316 - I sharply disagree with your support of Bush but respect your opinion, if it's justified of course. And I thank you for starting an intriguing thread.
Trading magic for fact, no tradebacks... So this is what it's like to be an adult...
No one did call me an asshole. Sorry I didn't mean to put words into peoples mouths. Iam sorry if i offended anyone. That was not my intention. I meant to imply that thats what I felt like. I do enjoy reading everyones opinion on the subject. I do respect other and their opinions. Thats one of the many reasons I do love my country and PJ. Our country for letting us discuss/agree/disagree on any subject we choose. And PJ for inducing them. Another thing is how there are so many views in here, yet in the end everyone for the most part is friendly. Well iam off to make some of Cadogan's finest salsa and listen to some bootlegs. Take every one.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
No one did call me an asshole. Sorry I didn't mean to put words into peoples mouths. Iam sorry if i offended anyone. That was not my intention. I meant to imply that thats what I felt like. I do enjoy reading everyones opinion on the subject. I do respect other and their opinions. Thats one of the many reasons I do love my country and PJ. Our country for letting us discuss/agree/disagree on any subject we choose. And PJ for inducing them. Another thing is how there are so many views in here, yet in the end everyone for the most part is friendly. Well iam off to make some of Cadogan's finest salsa and listen to some bootlegs. Take every one.
Matt
I think Matt needs to stop worrying about his salsa an concentrate on the task at hand. "Take every one"???? LOL .............Take CARE everyone LOL
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Funny though how international co-operation was totally disregarded when the Bush administration decided to depose the Iraqi regime.. on an illegal basis, one might add.
Never defended him and im not disagreeing... though 'illegal' is not the word to use.
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
I wasn't Questioning "that". I was discussing "that". So your saying that if I have a problem with "that", I know nothing of the bands IMO???????????? I do believe the 13 shows I have been to beg a differ. That brings me back to my earlier post. If I dont agree with them %100 i feel like iam an "outcast" at the show. You just helped prove my point! If I support the Bush (which again i proudly do!!) I know nothing about the band and iam an asshole? Thats just a shame.
Matt
I agree with you. I am moderately conservative, so I am a little pissed with some of Bush's policies and actions, but I still believe in some of his ideas. But with a large portion of the crowd here, it seems like youre not a worthy fan if you don't COMPLETELY agree with Pearl Jam and especially Eddie. That's actually pathetic. It's sad if you let Pearl Jam speak for you and just blindly support anything they say. I love the band, their music, and their activism... yet I will decide for myself on what I believe when it comes to politics.
"Hey I won't change direction, and I won't change my mind..."
I agree with you. I am moderately conservative, so I am a little pissed with some of Bush's policies and actions, but I still believe in some of his ideas. But with a large portion of the crowd here, it seems like youre not a worthy fan if you don't COMPLETELY agree with Pearl Jam and especially Eddie. That's actually pathetic. It's sad if you let Pearl Jam speak for you and just blindly support anything they say. I love the band, their music, and their activism... yet I will decide for myself on what I believe when it comes to politics.
Great reply Stu. I think alot of people do let the band speak for them and i agree its sad. Iam sure there are people out there who actually do have those beliefs but I think some people %100 percent agree with Ed because rather than what they hear at a concert or bootleg thats all the info their getting. I do applaud the band for exercising the right to say what they feel. Not to many people have the balls to do it. I just think they could be less negative about. Some of it boarders hate and its just a buzz kill sometimes. History shows that the people dont have to yell "Fuck you" to someone they disagree with in front of a crowd of 30 thousand people to make a change or a point. That is the wrong way to motivate people. We are all adults and can make discussions based on conversations. I do love that they are raising awareness for our environment(we need it), the support the show for our troops, chrones awareness and fund raising just to name a few. I also think its great how he calls out all the vacations that this administrations is taking. Must be nice. Get to work people, how many vacations do our troops get who are fighting over in that god-awful dessert get??????? take care everyone. By the way the salsa turned out wonderful.
Matt
Many many wonderful shows, since day one.
Love ya Punkinfur
Never defended him and im not disagreeing... though 'illegal' is not the word to use.
Sending troops to war, some to die, based on bogued up intelligence then continually changing the justification for the war isn't illegal??? If that's not, then what is?
Trading magic for fact, no tradebacks... So this is what it's like to be an adult...
Comments
what you do with those expressed opinion, it's your choice, but I'll least you'll be aware that there are other point of views and other solutions.
You can't MAKE Americans change their politics, but you can inform them that there's other models..(and it's true with other countries...would you say you're not entitle to criticise other regime, like Zimbabwe, Myanmar, North Korea?..America does it all the time: Iran, Iraq, South America...and far more than just commenting too!)
but uncivilised? History lesson 101: Civilisation was invented in the middle East!
and the gun crime rate and death penalty, on minors or mentally retarded (can't think of the PC term right now) to boot, and social inequalities in the US don't strike me as particularly civilised :rolleyes:
I accept your point, and I understand your argument. However, it is alot easier for ANYONE to criticize Myanmar's government than it is for Americans to listen to foreigners criticize their own governments. I guess you could make this type of analogy: Is your opinion or feeling about a concert you didn't go to as valuable as someone's who did go? If you criticize a foreign policy that affects your country in some significant way, I respect your opinion and your entitled to it. But foreign policy is only part of American politics.
Wow Pegasus, are we going to combine two arguments? Hahaha. First off, when you look at the sheer size of America, with all it's cities and urban centers, the crime stats are going to be bloated. It is a little ridiculous I'll admit, because it's rednecks from the southern U.S. defending gun rights while it's people in northern citites killing each other... but besides that, I would not call where I'm from or where most other Americans from uncivilized. And not to take any shots, but being from London Im sure you know about some of the bad areas around Elephant & Castle, which I have witnessed first hand. When I was visiting back in April, there was a really bad streak of teen gun-related deaths. I think it is safe to say that everybody has their own problems with violence and homicide, but I must say, there are no gunfights on my street outside, or any streets nearby for that matter. Yes, in America we do wear clothes, speak English, and eat with forks and knives (or at least most of the time).
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I did change the subject and asked him if he'd seen anything like that queue before... and he said 'oh yeh, several times... but I was on stage with Eddie Van Halen one time... it doesn't get much better than that'
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Sure you are. But can you really say you are nearly as effected by Bush as I am? His economic policies directly effect myself and every other American. Perhaps they effect you too, but it is through some type of chain reaction. And even moreso, what if I was DRAFTED? That is something you do not have to worry about. Here in America, the draft could be initiated within hours if need be. I do not see it happening, but it's something that I have to consider. And what about the soldiers fighting in Iraq? What if I knew one or was related to one?
People in other countries may have family or friends in America directly affected by Bush. And even if they don't, human compassion means most people would feel awful if young Americans were drafted into the military. It's called empathy, guy.
Well, US foreign policy does have an effect on other countries, too, so of course non-American citizens can criticise it, even though they cannot have a direct say with voting!
Also, it's not really what Eddie might say that "instigates our thoughts on your president", but rather your president's actions and decisions are just enough for that.
Edit for typo
Funny though how international co-operation was totally disregarded when the Bush administration decided to depose the Iraqi regime.. on an illegal basis, one might add.
And, no offense, but you're all a bit dramatic about the troops. My brother's in the Irish army and has volunteered to go to places like Lebanon, Liberia and Kosovo as peace keeping and peace making. Obviously not AS dangerous as a direct war zone... but still bloody dangerous. He has said he'd go to Iraq if it did turn into a peace making thing. Sure I'd be upset if he went but I Have to accept the fact that it's his job and this is what he has CHOSEN to do and there's nothing I can do about that. Those who are in the US army signed up knowing what they were getting into. Sure, I don't want any of them over there and I do feel sorry for them but if they weren't there, there'd be no war.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
i'm criticising your right to criticise stuff
This could turn into a never ending loop. And I know that if I stick with my end, you will too
I once took a friend of mine with me to a PJ show, and he is just a casual fan, it was his first show. Now this guy probably couldn't have agreed more with the guys in the band on all the issues if he tried, and he's very active in discussing and practicing his beliefs. However he was a little peeved after the show, because he paid to see a concert. I guess maybe I should have warned him that he should expect a few speeches.
As far as discussing American politics in foreign countries, I don't really care. They can do what they want, and there really isn't anything wrong with that, but it does seem a little cheap sometimes, because it's guaranteed applause. Other bands have been accused of that too, Green Day being one of the first to come to mind, bashing the U.S. or it's government overseas in an attempt to pander to the crowd. And that was one of the things that got the Dixie Chicks in trouble, from what I've heard. I was never a fan so I don't know, but I was led to believe that part of the reasoning for the big fall out they had was that on their tour of the U.S. they never really said anything offensive to the pro-Bush crowds, then as soon as they went overseas, where there was a strong anti-American sentiment, they then decided to start bad mouthing. And that was seen as kind of cowardly, and also "selling out" their country to pander to the crowd who they knew would eat it up. And while I have nothing against the Dixie Chicks, I did think it was a pretty cheap move, if that was really their opinion and they felt so strongly about it, they should say it over here as well as overseas, because it ended up looking like they were just playing to the audience. It's kind of an "if you're going to say something say it to our face" type of thing. I say all of that to say this.
At least with Pearl Jam, you know they aren't going to say anything in France, or the UK, that they wouldn't say in Houston, Texas. Even if a few Houstonites might get a little offended.
Pearl Jam has always been political, in their music, their activism, their actions, and their words, anyone that questions that, knows nothing of the band, and anyone that has a problem of it, knows nothing of the band IMO
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Given the length of PJ shows, even with the speeches, your friend got more music out of them than most bands. His interaction/speeches/rants are all part of the gig.
I wasn't Questioning "that". I was discussing "that". So your saying that if I have a problem with "that", I know nothing of the bands IMO???????????? I do believe the 13 shows I have been to beg a differ. That brings me back to my earlier post. If I dont agree with them %100 i feel like iam an "outcast" at the show. You just helped prove my point! If I support the Bush (which again i proudly do!!) I know nothing about the band and iam an asshole? Thats just a shame.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
You shouldn't feel like an outcast at a show, and I don't really think that is what the band is going for. Though I'm sure many people end up feeling that way, which sucks. You are more than welcome to have your own political beliefs, and I think the band would support that, although they may try to debate you on your support of Bush. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, so if this applies to anybody, well tough, but in my years as a PJ fan I have spoken to many other fans, in person, as well as over the internet, and there are many who kind of act like sheep. I remember talking to a guy and his girlfriend before a PJ show, they had driven down from Michigan. Anyway we were discussing politics, and it turned out these two were out-spoken Nader supporters. This was fine with me, though I'm not a big fan of his, and I brought up a few of my concerns with Ralph to have a bit of a friendly debate, and it soon became clear that these people knew nothing about Ralph Nader's politics, basically all they knew was that Ed supported him. So they were prepared to cast a completely un-informed vote for a candidate, just because somebody they looked up to supported him. I don't know Ed, but after hearing him speak many times at concerts, he seems to be trying to educate people rather than trying to get them to just vote his way. I would think he would prefer somebody cast an informed vote for a candidate he doesn't like, than an un-informed one for a candidate he does. If everybody votes for a candidate just because somebody else told them to, then that's not democracy.
Basically what I'm saying is that you shouldn't feel like an outcast just because you may support a different candidate than a majority of the people in attendance. If that's your political opinion, and an informed one, then knock yourself out. If you show up in an "I HEART BUSH" shirt, you aren't going to be lynched, in fact people will probably just think you're being ironic and find it funny. Also, I don't see where anybody called you an asshole. Maybe I just missed it, but you might want to calm down. I do see some not so friendly and elitist sounding replies, but there's no need to go putting words like asshole into other peoples mouths. If somebody did call you that and I just don't see it, I'm sorry, and that was very immature of them.
I wasn't around until 1975 and didn't live through that era of anti-war, anti-Vietnam music, but embrace those artists and their gall to speak out against something that they deem un-American or poor policy. And that's all EV does and has done since the beginning... see Live @ the Show Box when he tagged "War" and belted angrily and apologized to those friends of his in the service in the audience who might not concur with his views. War should be the last option. He stated his rationale and I've been at numerous shows where he's spoken politically sans anger egging people to vote and at least consider issues. When Pearl Jam has Get-Out-the-Vote rallies at their shows, I'd say they're doing more than pandering. And I'd venture to say that the number of people inspired to investigate an issue or vote is far greater than the number of people he's offended by bashing Bush. Bush has been and always will be an asshole - I've thought this since 2003 when Seymour Hersh penned an article in The New Yorker that criticized pre-war intel and the adminsitration's pursuit of war. If you follow the Iraq issue, you should take a ganders. And keep in mind, this was written in 2003!!!
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/10/27/031027fa_fact
As an American citizen who's done some travelling (Canada, México, a semester of grad school in Syndey) and with a degree in Spanish, I value the opinions of foreigners. I keep in touch with some of my aussie friends and anti-American sentiment there sounds as if it's at its highest point. And they're our fucking allies. For those of you who think non-Americans should keep their nose out of our business, I say they should be commended for paying heed to international politics. Look at the voter turnout in the recent French presidential elections versus the American turnout in the 2004 elections. Fucking sad. I'd venture to say that more foreigners keep tabs on our actions than our own citizens do. Our policy as the world's dominant country does affect billions of people and those who are affected should be able to weigh in at their heart's content. Iraq is Bush's war and look at how many families of British families (for one example) have been affected when they lost loved ones because Blair follwed GW blindly. Look at how many countries harbor thousand upon thousands of Iraqi refugees ~ these people are affected DIRECTLY by American foreign policy. Then compare the number of Iraqi refugees in those countries to the number of Iraqis we've let enter our country. Tell them to keep their mouths shut. Somebody mentioned that EV is willing to say the same shit in Houston as he is in Paris -- so, so correct.
Lastly, for those of you who were at Camden I, I think EV spoke out politically and had every person in the house standing. He had three (I think) ex-cons onstage who had been released from prison after being found innocent. I think they had served somewhere in the ballpark of 50 years combined. They had all taken an interest in music while in the pen and Pearl Jam brought them up to help out with Last Kiss. Vedder announced their names and gave the crowd some background and it was fucking awesome. Splendid. It was political in nature as a critique of the flaws in our system, but not all of EV's politics are bad.
Vedder 316 - I sharply disagree with your support of Bush but respect your opinion, if it's justified of course. And I thank you for starting an intriguing thread.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
I think Matt needs to stop worrying about his salsa an concentrate on the task at hand. "Take every one"???? LOL .............Take CARE everyone LOL
Love ya Punkinfur
Never defended him and im not disagreeing... though 'illegal' is not the word to use.
I agree with you. I am moderately conservative, so I am a little pissed with some of Bush's policies and actions, but I still believe in some of his ideas. But with a large portion of the crowd here, it seems like youre not a worthy fan if you don't COMPLETELY agree with Pearl Jam and especially Eddie. That's actually pathetic. It's sad if you let Pearl Jam speak for you and just blindly support anything they say. I love the band, their music, and their activism... yet I will decide for myself on what I believe when it comes to politics.
he just makes comments here and there,usually related to where there playing
mooncalf agreed" THe BANd
Great reply Stu. I think alot of people do let the band speak for them and i agree its sad. Iam sure there are people out there who actually do have those beliefs but I think some people %100 percent agree with Ed because rather than what they hear at a concert or bootleg thats all the info their getting. I do applaud the band for exercising the right to say what they feel. Not to many people have the balls to do it. I just think they could be less negative about. Some of it boarders hate and its just a buzz kill sometimes. History shows that the people dont have to yell "Fuck you" to someone they disagree with in front of a crowd of 30 thousand people to make a change or a point. That is the wrong way to motivate people. We are all adults and can make discussions based on conversations. I do love that they are raising awareness for our environment(we need it), the support the show for our troops, chrones awareness and fund raising just to name a few. I also think its great how he calls out all the vacations that this administrations is taking. Must be nice. Get to work people, how many vacations do our troops get who are fighting over in that god-awful dessert get??????? take care everyone. By the way the salsa turned out wonderful.
Matt
Love ya Punkinfur
Sending troops to war, some to die, based on bogued up intelligence then continually changing the justification for the war isn't illegal??? If that's not, then what is?