Truth...

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  • markin ball
    markin ball Posts: 1,076
    Jeanwah wrote:
    So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...

    Yes...

    But, we use our senses and our brain to interpret the world. So, it's all "hearesay" in a way. There is no way to directly detect the universe without your brain, ears, eyes, nose or fingers polluting the evidence, or "truth".
    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."

    "With our thoughts we make the world"
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Jeanwah wrote:
    So, because this thread makes me somewhat dizzy (am I the only one?), I can't help but attribute the word truth to the word reality. I mean, outside of absolute truths, wouldn't one say that any relative truth is just one's reality? Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...
    ...
    It really is more of a philisophical discussion on the nature of truth, logic, reasoning, critical thought.
    The God thing is just one example that most people can relate in regards to a simple question that has a great deal of variables that come into play to derive at a simple Yes or No answer.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Cosmo wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Just try the exercise ...
    find pleasure in feeling God with you then work on the rest in time.
    Give a little and see what you get.
    ...
    HOW? How can I try the exercise.. if you will not explain it?
    You say, 'Imagine God'. I don't want God to be based upon my own imagination... which differs from your imagination. Unless you and I and everyone in the world share the same imagination, we will all see different Gods.
    That very process is how religions are formed... Man, imaginning God the way they would like to see Him. The founders of Judaism and the Christianity and Islam... and you. In every instance, God is based upon the imaginary version created by Mankind... and you. you see God as you wish to see Him. I want to see God as He is... not how I imagine he would be.
    ...
    And just a clue: Imagination exists in the mind and requires the application of thought processes.
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility     remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.

    Are you serious about knowing God? Or is your goal to ridicule
    and deny others for knowing God? If that is your goal that would be kind of lame,
    a huge waste of time too.
    Your words deny God only to yourself not to others.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Sorry, I'm slow at following this thread especially around the God argument that continues to go on...
    The 'truth' on the existence (or not) of an omnipresent, omniscient, creator god has always been one of big metaphysical debates and one that could be interesting.

    Barstool preaching, on the other hand, is really not part of such debate.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    edited December 2012
    pandora wrote:
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility     remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.
    ...
    Doesn't sitting alone on an empty stretch of beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific on a grey Winter's day count as meditation? Why would I need to imagine that? It is a real place that I can exist in. What about sitting on the banks of a still alpine lake in the Sierras, listening to the trees sing? Lying on my back, looking up at the billions upon billions of stars blanketing the black of the desert night sky? Doesn't the fact that I actually live in those places over rule my imagining being there? I contemplate my existance and place great value in Mankind's ability to understand his mortal life.
    By your own description of your exercise... you are feeling... not knowing. You are using your imagination to create an imaginary space in time... in which, you find your God. In your own personal imagination of God. Which may seem true to you.
    If that is what works for you... great, it works for you. Yours is another religion that crosses my path... a preacher of one giving a sermon to a congregation of one. But, it is hardly what i'm looking to find.
    Post edited by Cosmo on
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Sometimes it seems like we've gotten off the train and gone on the wagon.

    No, not what you think. I mean wagon, you know...

    aaaaa.jpg

    :lol::lol::lol:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,386
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    mickeyrat wrote:
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    Good on ya, sir. I wish you continued strength, no matter the source(s).

    (I'd venture to bet a good deal of it comes from you, but I'm in no position to declare it as...truth)

    This thread isn't only food for thought, it's a bloody smorgasbord! And while much to take in, I like it.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    mickeyrat wrote:
    a truth is, its a personal relationship with god. therefore the perception of who/what god is is entirely personal.

    I have no idea if a god or a god exists. What I do know is there too many happenstances in my life that have been to my benifit that to claim these as pure coincidence is inadequate.

    I also know/believe that I could not stop drinking and drugging on my own.Yet, somehow I have been able to do so with the help of a 12 step program which has at its core an individual belief in a power greater than the individual. Dont know how, but its working in my life and many many others worldwide.
    ...
    It is your inner strength that helps to guide you. Yeah, we all have moments where we are faced with decisions... and those decisions are ultimately made by us. You get that because it is part of your humanity. A God or Nature may grant life... we, as beings that possess awareness, have to figure out what to do with it.
    And I have stated many times, what I believe... that hope, faith and belief in are good, positive traits that we possess. You don't really have to know God in order to believe in Him. You either make that leap of faith... or wait and see what the jury decides.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • dancepartner
    dancepartner Posts: 324
    redrock wrote:
    I guess it's just a question of what you consider absolute truth and relative truth, dancepartner. A truth from 'within' - that would be 'your' truth - not mine (or maybe it could be mine as well). As said at the beginning (and you mention), no one is omniscient. There are many theories of truth - these have been debated for centuries by very learned philosophers. Though it is generally (not to say absolutely) agreed that an absolute truth is one that is valid for all, all the time, with no counter argument - this, obviously within our limited parameters. A framework. We live, we die. Not all absolute truths are 'hard' truths either - truth can be quite abstract.

    Can you give an example of one of your 'absolute' truths from within?

    Ok. I tried to clip a pciture (used the img button) but it didn't work...how do I post a pic from my computer pics?
    Anyway, ironically, my inner truths when shared, seem to come at the expense of scant support from others. :roll:
    Here's a good example; (the one I tried to insert a pic of) I'm building outside of town and want to use the wood & rocks etc from surrounding area. For wood, that means Russian Olive. It's considered a trash wood & very invasive. Most western states are trying to get rid of it. However, it comes in very crooked branches and it's grain is beautiful & hard. My epiphany (Eureka moment, bright idea, inner knowing) came to me generated by these thoughts of wanting to create with material at hand. So, I made a one-of-a-kind fence with this stuff for a flower garden area. Nobody but nobody thought it was a good idea but once finished, nobody but nobody considers it any less than a work of art! ;)

    I guess if you want to know how I think absolute truths' arrive, I believe we are a creative species and we've been given an ever-expanding universal masterpiece to spark us. Our passion, knowlege and abilities all come together and poof! Humans create everyday and I think this keeps our souls happy. When we don't feed our creative side, that's when we get into slumps.
    I guess the other aspect of this would be the part where scant support plays into it. We create from our mind's eye (some call it God's eye) and we feel it's right. You come to know that only you see & feel it just so and that's ok. With age for experience, you remember more & more to tick off common sense weighing factors which help keep your creative endeavors from being derailed no matter who supports you. Who thought men could fly? Who agreed with anyones creative ideas at first?
    I think we must create to satiate our emotions like joy & fullfillment. That is inner truth. Is it absolute? I'm not sure.
    With a bit of luck, once a creation is shared, other feel-good emotions like gratitude & acceptance get soothed as well and all hopefully before you die! (I'm thinking of all the creative masterpieces not appreciated while the creator was still a mortal being).
    The DP series was a creative endeavor that came from an inner knowing —learn to write, then write, then share— and it came to me outta nowhere like a thunderbolt. I just hope I don't die before it gets appreciated cuz I passionately believe it's that somehow, somewhere start to spark us to unify our power and halt this spiral to the bottom. for this era living right now, I passionately believe if we wait for another era to fix things, then too late, is just too damn late...
    Sorry to end on such a sour note.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    dancepartner wrote:
    With a bit of luck, once a creation is shared, other feel-good emotions like gratitude & acceptance get soothed as well and all hopefully before you die! (I'm thinking of all the creative masterpieces not appreciated while the creator was still a mortal being).
    The DP series was a creative endeavor that came from an inner knowing —learn to write, then write, then share— and it came to me outta nowhere like a thunderbolt. I just hope I don't die before it gets appreciated cuz I passionately believe it's that somehow, somewhere start to spark us to unify our power and halt this spiral to the bottom. for this era living right now, I passionately believe if we wait for another era to fix things, then too late, is just too damn late...
    Sorry to end on such a sour note.
    But isn't the ability itself - to conceive of and carry out that creation enough? And, too, choosing to share it with others? Is outside validation necessary if it's a (personal) inner truth?
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    edited December 2012
    Cosmo wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    As I have said the exercise was for you to remove barriers to accepting God,
    a process by which you allow God, learning to accept
    the possibility     remembering the goal...
    it is not what you see but what you feel.

    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?

    Can you feel the breeze moving blades of grass here in this green space?
    Can you imagine yourself a small child once again in this green place
    rolling down a hill?
    Can you imagine yourself an old man laying down to leave this world
    in this green space?
    A life lived well, weary. Spend time here.... the longer the better.
    What do you smell, hear, feel?

    Do you hope for God? Or do you not care? If you hope bring God with you to your green space.
    The small green place you build in your logical mind where anything is possible.
    ...
    Doesn't sitting alone on an empty stretch of beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific on a grey Winter's day count as meditation? Why would I need to imagine that? It is a real place that I can exist in. What about sitting on the banks of a still alpine lake in the Sierras, listening to the trees sing? Lying on my back, looking up at the billions upon billions of stars blanketing the black of the desert night sky? Doesn't the fact that I actually live in those places over rule my imagining being there? I contemplate my existance and place great value in Mankind's ability to understand his mortal life.
    By your own description of your exercise... you are feeling... not knowing. You are using your imagination to create an imaginary space in time... in which, you find your God. In your own personal imagination of God. Which may seem true to you.
    If that is what works for you... great, it works for you. Yours is another religion that crosses my path... a preacher of one giving a sermon to a congregation of one. But, it is hardly what i'm looking to find.
    Again just trying to help you. The exercises I do not do... it is all for you.
    For you because your reality, your logic does not allow you possibilities.
    And no I have my proof, it is nothing of imagination. I do not imagine God.
    I am fine in my knowledge, you claim to seek.
    You disregard others knowledge and say bullshit/impossible. This because your mind
    does not allow the possibility.You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation, it is nothing of chilling in reality.

    What would someone need to say to convince you?

    What would you have to experience in this life to know God?

    I wonder if both answers would be nothing. No one, not even God could help you.
    You don't want help knowing God, you don't seek, you have made your decision.
    You don't want to know God ...it's not possible for you or anyone else.

    So in the future when you say no one can know God I will remind you ....
    you do not want to know God, you think you are unable.
    Post edited by pandora on
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    A couple days ago, my son in turmoil said to me ... "I just want to know truth"

    hmmm...

    I said 'we all do hun ...
    one day ...
    in the meantime live it'. :D
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    enjoyed a block of Supertramp this weekend ...
    these lyrics reminded me of this thread


    "Goodbye strange it's been nice, hope you find your paradise
    Tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true

    I believe, yes, I've got to get away"
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?

    Ummm.... maybe you did? :?
    pandora wrote:
    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?
    .....
    Can you imagine ....
    Can you imagine.....?

    ......

    You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation,     ..... .

    But good to see that, after what you have stated, you now understand it is not! ;):mrgreen:

    :oops: :oops: Didn't I say 'that's all I have to say'? :oops: :oops: Took the bait again... I will never learn, will I? ;)
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    One point to make - meditation is not 'imagining'. That's all I have to say about this.
    who said it was :? of course not ...
    maybe it's hard to listen when you don't like someone. So why even try?

    Ummm.... maybe you did? :?
    pandora wrote:
    Do you meditate? ...
    imagine yourself in a deep green place does it bring you peace?
    if only temporarily?
    .....
    Can you imagine ....
    Can you imagine.....?

    ......

    You don't understand the need to feel and to imagine
    the exercise brings. You don't understand meditation,     ..... .

    But good to see that, after what you have stated, you now understand it is not! ;):mrgreen:

    :oops: :oops: Didn't I say 'that's all I have to say'? :oops: :oops: Took the bait again... I will never learn, will I? ;)
    "do you meditate?" was a separate question ... I was interested if the OP was familiar.
    "The do not understand meditation" was directed at the OP likening it to chilling
    on a beach. I have found it quite different.

    The exercise to follow was to work on the skill that frees the logical mind.
    Not an example of meditation.
    Imagine is an exercise and chilling on the beach is not meditation though wonderfully
    rejevenating and peaceful, in my opinion.

    Do you pick apart sentences?
    I guess if someone does that they certainly can come up with anything they like to think,
    not the posters point or intention. It's a skill to focus on how words are meant,
    comes from an understanding place
    you could listen and try this .... novel idea.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Of course, Pandora, whatever you say.... :?

    2911505_ae9755d892.gif
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    Of course, Pandora.... :?

    2911505_ae9755d892.gif
    Tootles girlfriend ;)
    work on those listening skills now ...
    it saves peeps from a lot of unnecessary 'splainin' to do

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