Israel/Gaza

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  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    The reality is complicated; mired in corruption, haunted by division, but is ultimately a product of obscene oppression. So obscene, that many, namely Israel and the US, would rather pretend it simply was not true - not real - but it is.

    Israel controls the movement of all people and goods along Gaza's northern borders, as well as all its territorial waters and airspace, except a small strip along the southern border with Egypt, which has largely remained closed. Israel does not allow the movement of goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea. It also controls the movements of water, food, medicine, and people by land.

    In October, after a three-year battle by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, Israel was forced to disclose its so-called "Red Lines" document. No, not that cartoon/drawing Netanyahu made at the United Nations over Iran's nuclear program, this was a document drafted in early 2008 that provided a calculation of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza's 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition and widespread starvation.

    And yet, Israel claims it no longer occupies Gaza.

    The health ministry of Israel determined at the time that Palestinians in Gaza needed an average of 2,279 calories each to avoid malnutrition. To meet that number, Israel would need to allow 170 trucks of food a day inside Gaza. However, despite the study, less than half of the minimum amount required was actually allowed to enter Gaza daily. Before the blockade, Israel allowed 400 trucks through, by comparison.

    To ignore the role of Israel's occupation of Gaza is to ignore the fundamental fact needed to frame the latest escalation in reality rather than rhetoric and propaganda.

    To do otherwise, flagrantly falsifies the reality of the ongoing humanitarian crisis on the ground in Gaza.

    The reality is complicated; mired in corruption, haunted by division, but is ultimately a product of obscene oppression. So obscene, that many, namely Israel and the US, would rather pretend it simply was not true - not real - but it is.

    Israel controls the movement of all people and goods along Gaza's northern borders, as well as all its territorial waters and airspace, except a small strip along the southern border with Egypt, which has largely remained closed. Israel does not allow the movement of goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea. It also controls the movements of water, food, medicine, and people by land.

    In October, after a three-year battle by Gisha, an Israeli human rights group, Israel was forced to disclose its so-called "Red Lines" document. No, not that cartoon/drawing Netanyahu made at the United Nations over Iran's nuclear program, this was a document drafted in early 2008 that provided a calculation of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza's 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition and widespread starvation.

    And yet, Israel claims it no longer occupies Gaza.

    The health ministry of Israel determined at the time that Palestinians in Gaza needed an average of 2,279 calories each to avoid malnutrition. To meet that number, Israel would need to allow 170 trucks of food a day inside Gaza. However, despite the study, less than half of the minimum amount required was actually allowed to enter Gaza daily. Before the blockade, Israel allowed 400 trucks through, by comparison.
    WATCH: Israeli Strikes Repeatedly Attack Journalists


    When Israel withdrew its troops from Gaza in 2005, it claimed that this was the end of Gaza's occupation. But this report is one of countless examples of Israel's punishment of Palestinians living in Gaza, and one that must be included in order to put into context Israel's latest offensive.

    The United Nations, continues to refer to Gaza as an occupied territory. But Israel has long been indifferent to the United Nations and its resolutions condemning the country.

    On November 17, Israeli strikes damaged a UN-run school next to the Civil Department of the Ministry of Interior building in Gaza City's Tal al-Hawa neighborhood. This photo was taken by @annepaq, a French photographer based in Palestine for years.

    On the very same day, Israel's official Twitter account @IDFSpokesperson tweeted a link to a video hosted on their official YouTube channel, featuring an animated film that depicts militants firing rockets from a school clearly marked with UNRWA insignia.

    The UN agency denies the allegations made that suggest that Palestinian militants are using UNRWA schools or facilities in Gaza to fire rockets into Israel.

    The media and social media coverage has beem exceptional, "Now, Gaza is under the microscope, whether via social media, print, radio, TV - there is no ignoring what is raging within."

    Perhaps, for that reason, Israel has repeatedly targeted several buildings that house local and foreign journalists. The offices of Al-Arabiya, Russia Today, Reuters, AFP, Britain's Sky News, German ARD, Al-Quds, and other local media outlets were all damaged. Israel has killed at least three journalists and wounded dozens more. The 11-month old baby of BBC journalist Jihad Misharawi was also killed by an Israeli airstrike.

    Twenty-year old cameraman Khader al-Zahhar had his right leg blown off when a rocket shot through the roof of one of the buildings.

    The timing of these attacks on journalists is also significant.

    As the Committee To Protect Journalists's International Press Freedom Awards began in New York City, in Gaza, Israelis airstrikes shattered the windows of many international and local reporters like NBC Foreign Correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin in Gaza. The BBC Middle East Bureau Chief Paul Danahar, CNN's Anderson Cooper and The Washington Post's Cairo Bureau Chief Abigail Hauslohner were all there tweeting.

    This is the trouble with Israel's social media and PR efforts: they conveniently omit the facts that matter. Under the Geneva Convention, targeting journalists or civilians is considered a war crime.

    But Netanyahu spokesman Marc Regev appeared on Al Jazeera this week and tried to blame the journalists themselves for their deaths, questioning whether Palestinian and local journalists should be considered journalists and insisting that the strikes on the building only hit and affected the roof.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Byrnzie wrote:

    yosi wrote:
    The idea that all means are legitimate in resistance to occupation is logically indefensible unless you're willing to give up on any notion of morality, law and ethics altogether. And if you aren't able to draw any moral limits then I fail to see why anyone should take you seriously when you fling moral accusations at Israel. You just aren't credible.

    The morality of resistance is that if someone is stamping on your throat then you retaliate by any means necessary in order to force that person to remove his back off.
    But I understand how you can view such retaliation as immoral. I mean, were the various Jewish partisan and resistance groups in Nazi Occupied Europe immoral for blowing up trains that may or may not have been carrying civilians?

    I'm going to ignore the historical point because I actually don't think that ever happened. As far as I know, and I happen to know quite a bit on this subject, Jewish partisans during the war never attacked German civilians, if for no other reason then that the only Germans in the areas that saw partisan activity (generally Eastern Europe) were in the military. But that's really a side point...

    Yet again, your argument is far too simplistic (which is often a problem with arguments by analogy). That said, to use the terms of your analogy, the man with a boot on his throat can certainly use all reasonable means to protect himself against the person attacking him. He can't, however, blindly attack everyone who just so happens to be associated with his attacker. If the man finds a gun lying next to him and in fear for his life shoots the man whose boot is crushing his throat, that's one thing. It's quite another thing to grab the gun and shoot the man's daughter while she's playing in the yard next door. Morality functions through the identification of meaningful distinctions. If you refuse to draw those distinctions then you are affectively no longer really engaging in a moral discourse.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,055
    why is israel ignoring the terms? why will they not agree to terms? why are they rejecting the terms?

    the news sites are saying hamas has agreeable terms but israel is rejecting the terms....could it be that everyone brokering for a cease fire is pressuring the israeli government to stop settlement expansion and lift the blockade? are they asking for the 2 things that hamas and the palestinian people have been asking for for decades? could it be that israel is on shaky ground morally and politically??

    if those 2 things were conceded by israel it would be political suicide for bibi with the election coming up in january. i guess he can not appear to be "weak", or what the rest of the sane world would call "sane"... either that or they are just holding off on an agreement so they can get every last combat sortie in...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    A senior Israeli official explained that the final draft of the understandings prepared by Egyptian intelligence was unacceptable to Israel. On several issues, he said, the Egyptians adopted Hamas' positions, particularly in regard to opening the border crossings, easing the naval blockade of Gaza and eliminating the 500-meter buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the border fence. Currently Israel does not allow Palestinians to enter this zone.
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,055
    JC29856 wrote:
    A senior Israeli official explained that the final draft of the understandings prepared by Egyptian intelligence was unacceptable to Israel. On several issues, he said, the Egyptians adopted Hamas' positions, particularly in regard to opening the border crossings, easing the naval blockade of Gaza and eliminating the 500-meter buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the border fence. Currently Israel does not allow Palestinians to enter this zone.
    unfortunately with bibi and the likud leading the israeli government and elections coming up i doubt that any of those terms will be agreed to..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Not Palestinians. Hamas.

    And, no. Israel would not do that intentionally. They are not bombing indiscremanently (SP?) as Hamas is.

    I suggest you do your homework my friend: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=199263&start=15#p4751968

    ...that way, I won't have to keep repeating myself. Israel has been indiscriminately killing civilians - Labanese & Palestinian, for decades. And the proof of this has been extensively documented.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    I'm going to ignore the historical point because I actually don't think that ever happened. As far as I know, and I happen to know quite a bit on this subject, Jewish partisans during the war never attacked German civilians, if for no other reason then that the only Germans in the areas that saw partisan activity (generally Eastern Europe) were in the military. But that's really a side point...

    Yet again, your argument is far too simplistic (which is often a problem with arguments by analogy). That said, to use the terms of your analogy, the man with a boot on his throat can certainly use all reasonable means to protect himself against the person attacking him. He can't, however, blindly attack everyone who just so happens to be associated with his attacker. If the man finds a gun lying next to him and in fear for his life shoots the man whose boot is crushing his throat, that's one thing. It's quite another thing to grab the gun and shoot the man's daughter while she's playing in the yard next door. Morality functions through the identification of meaningful distinctions. If you refuse to draw those distinctions then you are affectively no longer really engaging in a moral discourse.

    And if attacking his daughter was a sure-fire way to cause the man who was strangulating him with his boot heel to back off, and that the attacker knew that by crushing the mans throat with his boot he was placing his own family in danger of retaliation, then why would it be immoral for the victim to attack his daughter? Surely the immorality lies in the attacker not simply backing off and ceasing his violence?
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    Your last response shows an absolute lack of fundamental moral understanding. I would hope that the other people reading this thread can recognize that as easily as I can.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • im pretty sure about a couple of things...

    if israeilians was not jewish,the things will be different...and hate less
    if palestinians has a big power behind to support them..lets say Russia,things will be different..
    when you grow up with hate and loose favo people,its easier to do things that we here think is unbeliavable
    this shit there will ever ends cosa "others" dont want peace..\
    and by others,i mean both sides supporters....
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Your last response shows an absolute lack of fundamental moral understanding. I would hope that the other people reading this thread can recognize that as easily as I can.

    And I would hope that people reading this thread can see the difference between the violence of someone under a brutal military occupation and all of the oppression, beatings, house demolitions, random incursions, missile attacks, white phosphorous attacks, checkpoints, and general humiliation that goes with it, and the violence of the oppressor...despite your efforts to portray them as being on an equal footing.
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:

    Yet again, your argument is far too simplistic (which is often a problem with arguments by analogy). That said, to use the terms of your analogy, the man with a boot on his throat can certainly use all reasonable means to protect himself against the person attacking him. He can't, however, blindly attack everyone who just so happens to be associated with his attacker. If the man finds a gun lying next to him and in fear for his life shoots the man whose boot is crushing his throat, that's one thing. It's quite another thing to grab the gun and shoot the man's daughter while she's playing in the yard next door. Morality functions through the identification of meaningful distinctions. If you refuse to draw those distinctions then you are affectively no longer really engaging in a moral discourse.

    And if attacking his daughter was a sure-fire way to cause the man who was strangulating him with his boot heel to back off, and that the attacker knew that by crushing the mans throat with his boot he was placing his own family in danger of retaliation, then why would it be immoral for the victim to attack his daughter? Surely the immorality lies in the attacker not simply backing off and ceasing his violence?
    Byrnzie wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    Your last response shows an absolute lack of fundamental moral understanding. I would hope that the other people reading this thread can recognize that as easily as I can.

    And I would hope that people reading this thread can see the difference between the violence of someone under a brutal military occupation and all of the oppression, beatings, house demolitions, random incursions, missile attacks, white phosphorous attacks, checkpoints, and general humiliation that goes with it, and the violence of the oppressor...despite your efforts to portray them as being on an equal footing.
    Absolutely.
    I think this analogy says a lot about both positions.
    I had the same first thought as you, B...which is interesting to me, because it flies in the face of similar 'two-wrongs' arguments I've used against the death penalty....So the analogy portrays how desperation and loyalties can make a person's moral judgement secondary to survival.
    On the flip side, I think calling empathy toward that basic human instinct a 'lack of fundamental moral understanding' is a back-handed claim of moral superiority, and inference that the oppressed should accept their fate....
    It also paints a pretty accurate portrait of an apologist....yes, on both sides of the analogy.
    But as you pointed out (B), the way to prevent the whole scenario is to remove the boot from the throat....and yes, after lifting a couple million boots, you can expect a few people to get up swinging....reasoned responses to those people can prevent the whole scenario from repeating.
    What we are seeing now is not a reasoned response. It's the attacker crushing the throat AND the victim's daughter's throat as well.
    Well isn't this a fucking morbid thought. Sickens me to think that there are people living this analogy.
  • When people can tell their children that there is more to life than hate and always being right, there just might be a chance for these two sides to get their acts together. They must be oblivious to the way most of their religious holidays fall on the same days, and revolve around the same cycles. Only to an outsider can this be so blatant.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • im pretty sure about a couple of things...

    if israeilians was not jewish,the things will be different...and hate less
    if palestinians has a big power behind to support them..lets say Russia,things will be different..
    when you grow up with hate and loose favo people,its easier to do things that we here think is unbeliavable
    this shit there will ever ends cosa "others" dont want peace..\
    and by others,i mean both sides supporters....

    Dimi-

    If all Israeli's were Christian (and there are a few out there), we would have the same problem. The Christians are no less infidels than Jews. Hamas will not stop until they have "won".

    Palestinians have plenty of support from the Arab world and had plenty of support from Russia too. Please don't kid yourself.
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  • How has the media accounted for the 6 Gazans killed for "treason" yesterday? I honestly don't know...

    Solid Governance...

    It's interesting... why wouldn't Hamas hold them captive? The going rate is 1 Israeli soldier for a thousand "political prisoners"
    9.29.96, 8.28.98, 9.1.00, 7.5.03, 9.30.05, 6.1.06, 6.19.08, 6.20.08, 6.24.08, 10.27.09, 10.28.09, 10.30.09, 5.20.10, 9.3.11, 9.4.11, 9.2.12, 7.19.13...

    2013- Brooklyn2, Philly1, Philly2, NOLA
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    And if attacking his daughter was a sure-fire way to cause the man who was strangulating him with his boot heel to back off, and that the attacker knew that by crushing the mans throat with his boot he was placing his own family in danger of retaliation, then why would it be immoral for the victim to attack his daughter? Surely the immorality lies in the attacker not simply backing off and ceasing his violence?


    yikes. all's fair in love and war, eh, Byrnzie?
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  • im pretty sure about a couple of things...

    if israeilians was not jewish,the things will be different...and hate less
    if palestinians has a big power behind to support them..lets say Russia,things will be different..
    when you grow up with hate and loose favo people,its easier to do things that we here think is unbeliavable
    this shit there will ever ends cosa "others" dont want peace..\
    and by others,i mean both sides supporters....

    Dimi-

    If all Israeli's were Christian (and there are a few out there), we would have the same problem. The Christians are no less infidels than Jews. Hamas will not stop until they have "won".

    Palestinians have plenty of support from the Arab world and had plenty of support from Russia too. Please don't kid yourself.
    i mean OPEN help....like the one USA gives to Israel...and isnt the same with Christians..
    cos let me tell u..Jewish are more traditional and believe more stronge than Christians these days..
    Israel is there ..was put there..and one obf ther reasons is that they are stroge belivers in their religion...trust me on this..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    http://app.response.stratfor.com/e/es?s ... cce8893020

    pretty good insights as to the differences between cast lead and pillar, talks about hezbollah not engaging, a weakened syria kinda leaving palestine isolated without much help.
    what comes to mind is how interesting it is that weapons (especially nuclear) backs off the bullies and makes them rethink their game plan.
  • When people can tell their children that there is more to life than hate and always being right, there just might be a chance for these two sides to get their acts together. They must be oblivious to the way most of their religious holidays fall on the same days, and revolve around the same cycles. Only to an outsider can this be so blatant.
    you are right
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    edited November 2012
    this is what is meant by US being Israels little Bitchboy....Kucinich refuses to grab his ankles

    Whereas Hamas was founded with the stated goal of destroying the State of Israel;

    Whereas Hamas has been designated by the Secretary of State as a Foreign Terrorist Organization;

    Whereas Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;

    Whereas Hamas has launched thousands of rockets and missiles since Israel dismantled settlements and withdrew from Gaza in 2005;

    Whereas terrorists in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip have fired approximately 900 rockets and missile shells into Israel this year, an increase from roughly 675 attacks in 2011 and 350 in 2010;

    Whereas Hamas has increased the range of its rockets, reportedly with support from Iran and others, putting additional large numbers of Israelis in danger of rocket attacks from Gaza;

    Whereas, on November 14, 2012, President Barack Obama condemned the rocket fire from Gaza into Israel and reiterated Israel’s right to self-defense; and

    Whereas Israel, a fellow democracy, has an inherent right to self defense in the face of terrorist attacks: Now, therefore, be it Resolved, That the House of Representatives–

    (1) expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders, and recognizes and strongly supports its inherent right to act in self-defense to protect its citizens against acts of terrorism;

    (2) reiterates that Hamas must end Gaza-linked terrorist rocket and missile attacks against Israel, recognize Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and agree to accept previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinians;

    (3) urges the United Nations Security Council to condemn the recent spike in Gaza-linked terrorist missile attacks against Israel, which risk causing civilian casualties in both Israel and Gaza; and

    (4) encourages the President to continue to work diplomatically with the international community to prevent Hamas and other Gaza-based terrorist organizations from retaining or rebuilding the capability to launch rockets and missiles against Israel.

    Outgoing Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) has objected to a House resolution that declared “vigorous support and unwavering commitment” to Israel.

    Kucinich said on Tuesday the non-binding resolution, which supports Israeli airstrikes on Gaza in strong terms, was passed by the House in about a minute and without any advance notice. The resolution was passed on Friday by a voice vote with no debate. Raw Story

    It is unusual that legislation addressing a topic of such importance would be brought up without giving members of Congress any prior notice. The bill was introduced at 12:04 pm. The resolution was “agreed without objection” by 12:05 pm.

    Could anything be more destructive of peace than the assassination of a principal to ceasefire negotiations?

    http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/273727.html
    Post edited by JC29856 on
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Made in America

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/1 ... _ref=world

    scroll down to the bottom for pictures of what was Made in America

    note that one bomb killed more than the 1500 rockets lobbed into israel