Israel/Gaza

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Comments

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Regarding "apartheid"...The occupation is awful on its own terms, but the comparison to apartheid is simply lazy and inaccurate.

    Yes, there are seperate road systems in the occupied West Bank. They were built for security purposes because many Israelis were being attacked on the roads. They are not meant to serve a racial/religious/ethnic segregationist purpose, as is evident from the fact that they are open for the use of any Israeli citizen regardless of whether they are Jewish or not.

    But they do serve a racial/religious/ethnic segregationist purpose,so your point is moot.
    yosi wrote:
    Palestinians in the West Bank [...] live [..] under a legal regime of belligerant occupation.

    Except the occupation isn't legal. It's a crime under international law, and constitutes a crime against humanity.

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements
    Israel created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation and discrimination, with two separate systems of law in the same territory. One system, for the settlers, de facto annexes the settlements to Israel and grants settlers the rights of citizens of a democratic state. The other is a system of military law that systematically deprives Palestinian of their rights and denies them the ability to have any real effect on shaping the policy regarding the land space in which they live and with respect to their rights. These separate systems reinforce a regime in which rights depend on the national identity of the individual.

    ..The existence of the settlements brings with it the violation of many human rights of Palestinians, including the right of property, the right to equality, the right to a suitable standard of living, and the right to freedom of movement.

    http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law
    The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.

    The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population.

    The establishment of settlements results in the violation of the rights of Palestinians as enshrined in international human rights law. Among other violations, the settlements infringe the right to self-determination, equality, property, an adequate standard of living, and freedom of movement.
    yosi wrote:
    Basically, the occupation is terrible and should end. The settlements are terrible and should either be uprooted or turned over to Palestinian sovereignty. I agree with all that. But there simply isn't a state of apartheid in place, and those things that may, in some manner approximate elements of an apartheid system serve entirely different goals, i.e. security rather than bigotry.

    They have nothing to do with security, and they do not justify the continuation of the settlements.

    Michael Neumann - 'The Case Against Israel' P107-108

    Some Israeli's may have seen the first Post-1967 settlements as outposts, advance warning stations guarding the new frontiers against possible attack. This never made a lot of sense: why not just have real advance warning stations, military positions, instead? No one has ever explained why a sprawl of civilian subdivisions and enclaves was required when, to all appearances, a few purely military outposts would have fulfilled any defensive functions at least as well, and at far less cost to both Israeli's and Palestinians. Dayan himself stated that "from the point of view of the security of the State, the establishment of the settlements has no great importance." Other officials shared his assessment:

    "We have to use the pretext of security needs and the authority of the military governor as there is no way of driving out the Arabs from their land as long as they refuse to go and accept our compensation..."
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    today all the israeli school children have off from school so they can write little notes and messages to the palestinian children hiding in their basements

    http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01y ... 2/350x.jpg

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ligso ... o1_500.jpg

    oh and those that are scoreboard watching:
    Halftime
    104 - 3
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    JC29856 wrote:
    today all the israeli school children have off from school so they can write little notes and messages to the palestinian children hiding in their basements

    http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01y ... 2/350x.jpg

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ligso ... o1_500.jpg

    oh and those that are scoreboard watching:
    Halftime
    104 - 3

    As a famouns coach once said when being accused of running up the score on the other team - "I can only coach one team."

    Your scoreboard idea is disgusting. Not that I mind you mentioning how many civilians Hamas has hidden within to "defend" themselves. That's fine. Just the terms you put on human life.

    CBS reporter noted that they evacuated their building (which is the main media enclave in Gaza) a few days ago b/c:

    1) They knew Hamas was using it to run their operations
    2) Israel warned them that it would be a target

    You can't blame Israel (alone) for what Hamas has used as its military strategy.

    (And BTW a dozen or so of the civilian deaths within Gaza have been confirmed as coming from misfired Hamas bombs. So, you may want to adjust your "score" a bit.)
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    JC29856 wrote:
    today all the israeli school children have off from school so they can write little notes and messages to the palestinian children hiding in their basements

    http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/01y ... 2/350x.jpg

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ligso ... o1_500.jpg

    oh and those that are scoreboard watching:
    Halftime
    104 - 3
    both things here are so wrong..

    1st ..putting kids write on the bombs..how shitty is this..(btw,i hope all remember when we all saw that writing on the bombs for the first time..)
    and 2nd...we are talking about human lifes here..you cant use this football terms as joke for deaths..
    its so wrong..
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    the score was wrong, lets wait for the official score once this ends, sounds like a ceasefire truce will happen soon

    i suspect israel is satisfied at this point with the destruction and most if not all of the objections were met
    murder 13 year old playing football near neutral zone
    wait for response - rockets and mortars
    assassinate hamas military commander
    wait for response - rockets and mortars
    justification to implement "pillar of defence"
    make clear to palestinians (leaflets, radio and tv)- support hamas = hell on earth (if lucky instant death)
    bombardment of gaza "military installations" and "militants" back to the stone ages
    agree to ceasefire truce

    outcome
    win support in wake of upcoming elections (2nd time nutandyahoo pulled that from his playbook)
    thwart palestinian authority effort to be recognized by the UN as a non member state 11/29/12
    deplete hamas weaponry (limit retaliatory strikes from impending iran bombings)
    garner US support against Eqypt, Syria, Qatar, Turkey and of course Iran
    try to break the "will" of the palestinians (unsuccessful past 45 yrs)
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Zoso wrote:
    at the end of the day I don't care whose civilians are dying are for what reason but CIVILIANS are being slaughtered here and they are (for the most part) innocent people).
    You don't care why they're dying? Then you're going to have a hard time doing anything to stop it.

    As Desmond Tutu said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,154
    B, perhaps I wasn't clear (although I doubt that in your frothing rage you ever really read what I write with any sort of careful attention); by "legal regime of belligerant occupation" I didn't mean that the occupation is legal. I was using "legal" to indicate a frame of reference for the following terms (i.e., Israel's control of the West Bank is legally analyzed under the international laws governing "belligerant occupation"). I'm in law school; I talk like a lawyer.

    The occupation writ large is legally distinct from the settlements. I agree with you that the settlements are most likely illegal under the laws governing belligerant occupation (though I'd have to study up a bit more to be sure). That said, the military occupation of the West Bank, as distinct from the settlement project, is not illegal - Israel holds the West Bank under a state of belligerant occupation, which is a concept in international law that delineates the duties of an occupying military power towards the occupied population and its freedom of action with regard to matters of security, etc. Israel has never explicitly annexed the West Bank (and has affirmatively voted down attempts from within the government to do so). The territory was conquered in a military conflict ('67 war) and until there is another sovereign to whom Israel can cede responsibility for the territory (in this case a Palestinian state) through a negotiated withdrawal its continued occupation of the territory is legal (which is not to say that all the actions taken in furtherance of the occupation are legal - that's a seperate question). As usual you've collapsed a number of very complicated realities about which you seem to personally be only partially informed into one utterly inaccurate and inadequate black and white conclusion.

    I'm just not even going to bother responding to your rejoinders regarding the road system and the security purposes of Israeli actions since they were nothing more than conclusory statements that you're right and I'm wrong, except to say that I didn't claim that the security purposes of these measures justifies the settlement project (I don't believe that they do, so please don't put your own twisted words in my mouth).

    Finally, I find your notion that all means are legitimate in resisting occupation to be nothing less than a complete abandonment of legality, ethics and morality. To take your argument to its logical extreme, Hamas would be well within its rights to acquire an arsenal of nukes and instantly annihilate the populations of Israel and all the other countries that support her, because hey, all's fair in resisting occupation. So what if it's genocide on a global scale, they were just resisting occupation. I know it's an absurd example, but that's the point. The idea that all means are legitimate in resistance to occupation is logically indefensible unless you're willing to give up on any notion of morality, law and ethics altogether. And if you aren't able to draw any moral limits then I fail to see why anyone should take you seriously when you fling moral accusations at Israel. You just aren't credible.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • kenny olav
    kenny olav Posts: 3,319
    Well, since my last comment got removed because the comment I was commenting on got removed, I want to reiterate a point I was making about religion and how it relates to this conflict.

    I was saying that I am deeply interested in history, and in not seeing it repeated. Throughout history, when people have been motivated by religion, it has produced some fascinating art, but it has done nothing good in the area of politics.

    It brings me no joy if I offend anyone here who is religious. But this is a Pearl Jam website, and the song Do the Evolution does an excellent job of mocking religion, so when I join in the anti-religious chorus on this particular website, I feel like I should be preaching to the choir, and it's a bit strange that many here in the choir aren't singing the same song. So if religion still needs to be mocked here, I'll be happy to do it. I think fighting religion is a fight that is vital to creating a safe and secure world for our children, and it should be fought everywhere.

    Ethnic division is always a terrible thing when it is taught to children, but the teaching of religious division to children seems even more damaging and long-lasting. For example, there is no ethnic division between Muslims and Hindus living in India, but the religious division there has brought about acts of murder and torture from both sides. I think it's because religion plays into the fear of what happens to you after you die. People don't want their children to know about contrary opinions about what you should believe in order to enter Paradise after death. Adults don't want to hear it either.

    There may be something like heaven. I really hope there is. But I am certain that there is no holy land on Earth. We are all on this Earth for a very short time and there is nothing here worth killing or dying for... I hope one day we all we realize this.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    kenny olav wrote:
    Well, since my last comment got removed because the comment I was commenting on got removed, I want to reiterate a point I was making about religion and how it relates to this conflict.

    I was saying that I am deeply interested in history, and in not seeing it repeated. Throughout history, when people have been motivated by religion, it has produced some fascinating art, but it has done nothing good in the area of politics.

    It brings me no joy if I offend anyone here who is religious. But this is a Pearl Jam website, and the song Do the Evolution does an excellent job of mocking religion, so when I join in the anti-religious chorus on this particular website, I feel like I should be preaching to the choir, and it's a bit strange that many here in the choir aren't singing the same song. So if religion still needs to be mocked here, I'll be happy to do it. I think fighting religion is a fight that is vital to creating a safe and secure world for our children, and it should be fought everywhere.

    Ethnic division is always a terrible thing when it is taught to children, but the teaching of religious division to children seems even more damaging and long-lasting. For example, there is no ethnic division between Muslims and Hindus living in India, but the religious division there has brought about acts of murder and torture from both sides. I think it's because religion plays into the fear of what happens to you after you die. People don't want their children to know about contrary opinions about what you should believe in order to enter Paradise after death. Adults don't want to hear it either.

    There may be something like heaven. I really hope there is. But I am certain that there is no holy land on Earth. We are all on this Earth for a very short time and there is nothing here worth killing or dying for... I hope one day we all we realize this.


    :clap:
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  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    kenny olav wrote:
    Well, since my last comment got removed because the comment I was commenting on got removed, I want to reiterate a point I was making about religion and how it relates to this conflict.

    I was saying that I am deeply interested in history, and in not seeing it repeated. Throughout history, when people have been motivated by religion, it has produced some fascinating art, but it has done nothing good in the area of politics.

    It brings me no joy if I offend anyone here who is religious. But this is a Pearl Jam website, and the song Do the Evolution does an excellent job of mocking religion, so when I join in the anti-religious chorus on this particular website, I feel like I should be preaching to the choir, and it's a bit strange that many here in the choir aren't singing the same song. So if religion still needs to be mocked here, I'll be happy to do it. I think fighting religion is a fight that is vital to creating a safe and secure world for our children, and it should be fought everywhere.

    Ethnic division is always a terrible thing when it is taught to children, but the teaching of religious division to children seems even more damaging and long-lasting. For example, there is no ethnic division between Muslims and Hindus living in India, but the religious division there has brought about acts of murder and torture from both sides. I think it's because religion plays into the fear of what happens to you after you die. People don't want their children to know about contrary opinions about what you should believe in order to enter Paradise after death. Adults don't want to hear it either.

    There may be something like heaven. I really hope there is. But I am certain that there is no holy land on Earth. We are all on this Earth for a very short time and there is nothing here worth killing or dying for... I hope one day we all we realize this.


    :clap:

    Why do folks think that others who may fight don't believe this, too (not saying you, but I see this all the time)?

    It's like the old saying from the cold war - we are truly safe b/c so and so love their children, too (Russia at that time). The meaning went beyond the children. It really was the fact that Russians loved living, so the mutually assured destruction was kept at bay b/c they realized their action would have a RE-action.

    I'm not so sure terrorist organizations like Hamas have that same ethos. When you see suicide bombers, etc., it calls into question their ability to differentiate life and death.

    I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (Which is not to argue or say that they don't kill people. But, the fact that they wouldn't strap a bomb to themselves to attack others, make a point, "defend themselves or whatever you'd like to call it). Can the same be said for Hamas and other similarly situated terrorist organizations?

    When faced with an enemy that doesn't honor life like most ethical humans do, you are forced to fight and kill and die if necessary. It doesn't make you ethically bankrupt. It proves you understand the REALITY you deal with.

    Just because someone fights a war does not mean the like it or want it. There is a clear deliniation on what each sides pathos is here regardless of how some would like to color it.

    Your neighbor comes at your child with a gun, are you just going to stand there b/c you don't like guns? Is it possible you might wind up killing your neighbor if it is the only way to save your child even though killing is against every fiber of your moral being?
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    .

    I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (

    question..if usa was where israel is right now..i mean usa be a middle east country ,would u think will act as Israel?more calm,more diplomatic,more aggressive?than Israel?
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • BinauralJam
    BinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    One Hamas official had said a truce might start at 9 p.m. But after that moment passed, a senior figure in the movement, Ezzat al-Rishq, told Reuters in Cairo: "The truce is now held up because we are waiting for the Israeli side to respond.
    "We ... must wait until tomorrow."
    Israeli officials continued to say that discussions were still continuing.

    Gaza medical officials say 134 people have died in Israeli strikes, mostly civilians, including 34 children. In all, five Israelis have died, including three civilians killed last week.


    Israel needs to bomb maybe a 100 or so more sites and kill a few more palestinians before it decides to cease-fire.

    SCORE - 2 Minute Warning
    134-5
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    BinauralJam wrote:
    Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
    thats true...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    .

    I would profer that Israel is on the same ethical ground as us on this - life is better than death. (

    question..if usa was where israel is right now..i mean usa be a middle east country ,would u think will act as Israel?more calm,more diplomatic,more aggressive?than Israel?

    Honestly? I think MORE aggresive.

    Israel is actually being very restrained. I've said it once, I'll say it again - Israel could decimate the entire Middle East if it wanted to (And the US would let them). Their's is a defensive force. The US when put in a corner (or before) would come at ALL guns blazing. Not saying either is right or wrong. Just answering your question with my opinion.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    BinauralJam wrote:
    Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
    thats true...

    It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?

    Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.

    The analogy is ridiculous.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    JC29856 wrote:
    One Hamas official had said a truce might start at 9 p.m. But after that moment passed, a senior figure in the movement, Ezzat al-Rishq, told Reuters in Cairo: "The truce is now held up because we are waiting for the Israeli side to respond.
    "We ... must wait until tomorrow."
    Israeli officials continued to say that discussions were still continuing.

    Ah. Propaganda at it's finest. Glad someone eats this up. It's why groups like Hamas still serve it up hot.

    We have no idea what's been discussed. So, to assume Hamas has had any credible discussions is beyond silly. They may have said - you stop bombing, but we promise nothing. Then tell you - see? We tried!!!! They won't budge!!
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    BinauralJam wrote:
    Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
    thats true...

    It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?

    Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.

    The analogy is ridiculous.
    man..they are desperate..i would if i lost everyone and everything..we are lucky we grow up in peace inside our country..so we dont think this way..you cant turn that way ,if u dont grow up like this way..
    +their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic
    we are talkinmg about them..not how we will act..is how they understand things
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • EdsonNascimento
    EdsonNascimento Posts: 5,531
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    man..they are desperate..i would if i lost everyone and everything..we are lucky we grow up in peace inside our country..so we dont think this way..you cant turn that way ,if u dont grow up like this way..
    +their religion thing,that make them believes and be fanatic

    Agreed. That's the point. I'm not necessarily saying there are not forces that have led them to that. But, the very fact that that is the enemy you are facing forces different results.

    We can have the nature vs. nurture discussion on another thread. But, the fact remains, for whatever reason, the value of life is different. That requires a very different kind of response.

    And I "know you" (which is to say I think I do) so I know you don't mean this, but you are coming very close to justifying the actions of terrorist organizations like Al Qaida and Hamas.
    Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
  • BinauralJam
    BinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    EdsonNascimento wrote:
    dimitrispearljam wrote:
    BinauralJam wrote:
    Edson, if you lost your wife and kid, you don't think you could be convinced to strap a bomb on and take out some of the people who took your love ones away? I think you could, I think it's a tactic that the little guys use to fight the big guy. The big guy has just made them that desperate. They fully understand the REALITY they are about to die and they value their lives just as much as everybody else on this planet.
    thats true...

    It's not true. That's so silly, and maybe the point. I would strap a bomb to myself and indiscrimantly walk onto a bus and kill countless other innocents because of my grief?

    Truth be told, I'd be a basket case and unable to do ANYTHING. But, if I KNEW the person that killed my wife and kid, yes I would want to exact revenge. But, I wouldn't put other innocents in my way because their government may have done something they may or may not have condoned.

    The analogy is ridiculous.


    It's not at all ridiculous or silly in any way which is why it happens. However i am glad you don't think your self capable of such an act. Maybe that's why you cant wrap your head around it.

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