Obamacare sucks

Cosmo · October 2012

_ wrote:

1. We already pay enough to cover everyone. We just don't want to cover them, regardless of cost.

2. What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it?

...
Wait... are you asking if we would give up our Ten Club memberships... if it would save the life of another human being?
Well, personally... My answer is ABSOLUTELY YES! My Ten Club membership isn't even in my top 100 Life priorities list... to forfeit it in order to save a human being from dying, my question is... which Ten Club Member wouldn't ?

Red Mosquito75 · October 2012

Cosmo wrote:

_ wrote:

1. We already pay enough to cover everyone. We just don't want to cover them, regardless of cost.

2. What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it?

...
Wait... are you asking if we would give up our Ten Club memberships... if it would save the life of another human being?
Well, personally... My answer is ABSOLUTELY YES! My Ten Club membership isn't even in my top 100 Life priorities list... to forfeit it in order to save a human being from dying, my question is... which Ten Club Member wouldn't ?

Is that even a question. Give up 10c membership to save a life. Of course the majority would or at least the rational.

Cosmo · October 2012

pandora wrote:

I hear those saying a few more taxes ok... you see you can afford that,
to you it is not a problem financially. You have insurance either a plan you can afford
or one provided through your employer.
I pay for a health plan now but may have to discontinue in the future...

but it's not about me or you
it's about those who already have no insurance, who can not afford the plans
and have to pay a penalty tax and have higher taxes to pay to cover people
who are here illegally and those on aid. They barely have enough to cover basic needs.

They can not have insurance and will be doubly taxed. This is not fair to them,
nor a good plan to help people have affordable medical care.
You guys here are for it cause you can pay both taxes and for insurance
what about those who can not?

...
For you... it is a question of money. For me, a question of morality. My moral compass points me towards valuing the life of a human above monetary value.
That is the major difference in our differing perspectives.
The whole idea of universal health care is access to health care services for everyone... even the one's that cannot afford it.
And there you go again... about the 'illegals'. To me, I see them as human beings.

Cosmo · October 2012

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

_ wrote:

1. We already pay enough to cover everyone. We just don't want to cover them, regardless of cost.

2. What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it?

...
Wait... are you asking if we would give up our Ten Club memberships... if it would save the life of another human being?
Well, personally... My answer is ABSOLUTELY YES! My Ten Club membership isn't even in my top 100 Life priorities list... to forfeit it in order to save a human being from dying, my question is... which Ten Club Member wouldn't ?

Is that even a question. Give up 10c membership to save a life. Of course the majority would or at least the rational.

...
Honest answer... i don't know exactly what the question was. here it is again:
"What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it"
It was a very odd question that i tried to answer to the best of my abilities.

pandora · October 2012

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

How is obamacare going to affect me, a middle class father with a family? We all have healthcare through employer. The insurance is good and we pay a decent rate for a family of five. That is my main question? If an individual doesn't have insurance but must get it now because of obamacare where does he get it from, and insurance company or the gov't?

I wonder if anyone here knows the answer to that.
I googled, not the first time and you get both sides
so you must muddle through all that., those for and against
Obamacare. I have also read all the rules and multitude of figures.
It is more complicated than one would think.

I am an employer but we have few employees so at the moment it does not effect us.
Once upon a time we had a group plan but now everyone is on their own
and as far as I can tell we will stay like that.

I have read some employers may not continue to provide insurance because
the penalty is cheaper for them than to provide, this important in this
economy when so many are just trying to keep the doors open.

How much you would pay for insurance in the marketplace depends
on how much you make. It depends on if you want a bronze, silver, gold plan.
It depends on the tax credits you qualify for which bring the plans to a
more affordable place.

pandora · October 2012

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I hear those saying a few more taxes ok... you see you can afford that,
to you it is not a problem financially. You have insurance either a plan you can afford
or one provided through your employer.
I pay for a health plan now but may have to discontinue in the future...

but it's not about me or you
it's about those who already have no insurance, who can not afford the plans
and have to pay a penalty tax and have higher taxes to pay to cover people
who are here illegally and those on aid. They barely have enough to cover basic needs.

They can not have insurance and will be doubly taxed. This is not fair to them,
nor a good plan to help people have affordable medical care.
You guys here are for it cause you can pay both taxes and for insurance
what about those who can not?

...
For you... it is a question of money. For me, a question of morality. My moral compass points me towards valuing the life of a human above monetary value.
That is the major difference in our differing perspectives.
The whole idea of universal health care is access to health care services for everyone... even the one's that cannot afford it.
And there you go again... about the 'illegals'. To me, I see them as human beings.

Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury.
As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.

Smellyman · October 2012

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I hear those saying a few more taxes ok... you see you can afford that,
to you it is not a problem financially. You have insurance either a plan you can afford
or one provided through your employer.
I pay for a health plan now but may have to discontinue in the future...

but it's not about me or you
it's about those who already have no insurance, who can not afford the plans
and have to pay a penalty tax and have higher taxes to pay to cover people
who are here illegally and those on aid. They barely have enough to cover basic needs.

They can not have insurance and will be doubly taxed. This is not fair to them,
nor a good plan to help people have affordable medical care.
You guys here are for it cause you can pay both taxes and for insurance
what about those who can not?

...
For you... it is a question of money. For me, a question of morality. My moral compass points me towards valuing the life of a human above monetary value.
That is the major difference in our differing perspectives.
The whole idea of universal health care is access to health care services for everyone... even the one's that cannot afford it.
And there you go again... about the 'illegals'. To me, I see them as human beings.

Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury.
As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.

Can you provide any real facts for that?

Thirty Bills Unpaid · October 2012

In the early 90s I backpacked Costa Rica. I was there for a month. For those that don't know, Costa Rica sits nestled between Nicaragua and Panama in Central America.

When I went, I was aware that there had been relatively recent and bloody civil stuggles in both countries neighbouring Costa Rica (Nicaragua in 1979 and Panama had issues in the later 80s).

Costa Rica was very comparable to both of those countries in terms of land, resources and population demographics. That beautiful country had none of the problems its neighbours had. In fact, they did not even have an army when I travelled there.

What was the difference? I've got an idea: Costa Rica provided public education and medical to its citizens. With this in mind, I would be so bold as to suggest that when a government takes care of all its people instead of treating themselves and their closest associates with the life of luxury (decadent 'Rome' style with complete disregard for the peasants or 'middle and lower classes')... a country stands its greatest chance of succeeding.

I'm really proud of Canada's medical system. We don't sit here and squabble about who's paying more, who's not paying, who needs to pay more. We just treat those that need it. Speaking for all of us... our medical system is at the top of our priorities for how we want our taxes spent.

Maybe instead of fighting against a fair and decent medical system accessible to all... you should look and see how tax dollars are currently spent and consider redistributing what is already collected?

Without having read too much of Obama's plan, I would suggest that he's on the right track. Some of you that speak against taxes helping out those that need it... well... geez man... really? You haven't paid as much as me so tough shit?

C'mon, man!

Cosmo · October 2012

pandora wrote:

Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury.
As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.

...
No... I do not think a moral compass is a luxury. We all have moral compasses, rich, poor or otherwise. Which direction our compass points is decided by us.
Now, just to clue you in.. i'm am not going to get involved with one of your circular discussions. The basis of this is the life of death of one person and their inability to pay their hospital bill. You see him as undeserving because he is in this country illegally and should have been left to die... and i see him as just another human being that is alive today thanks to the sacrifice of a great nation that sees people in a greater light than money.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · October 2012

pandora wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I hear those saying a few more taxes ok... you see you can afford that,
to you it is not a problem financially. You have insurance either a plan you can afford
or one provided through your employer.
I pay for a health plan now but may have to discontinue in the future...

but it's not about me or you
it's about those who already have no insurance, who can not afford the plans
and have to pay a penalty tax and have higher taxes to pay to cover people
who are here illegally and those on aid. They barely have enough to cover basic needs.

They can not have insurance and will be doubly taxed. This is not fair to them,
nor a good plan to help people have affordable medical care.
You guys here are for it cause you can pay both taxes and for insurance
what about those who can not?

...
For you... it is a question of money. For me, a question of morality. My moral compass points me towards valuing the life of a human above monetary value.
That is the major difference in our differing perspectives.
The whole idea of universal health care is access to health care services for everyone... even the one's that cannot afford it.
And there you go again... about the 'illegals'. To me, I see them as human beings.

Yes right now we both have the luxury of moral compass.
But I am speaking of fairness and justice.
You can afford to pay for yourself and the taxes. Not everyone has that luxury.
As far as illegals, they are rising health costs to unaffordable levels.
Unless that is addressed more will be without insurance, paying higher taxes and penalties.

Lucky you, huh Pandora?

You won the lottery and weren't born in Mexico or Africa. Too bad for those wishing for a better life and attempting to better it by moving to your land of the free and the home of the brave. Are you hard done by? What type of computer are you typing from and how many sets of headphones do you listen to Pearl Jam with? Are you ever hungry?

'Illegals raising (at least that's what I think you meant to say) health costs to unaffordable levels'? Really? It's all their fault?

_ · October 2012

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

How is obamacare going to affect me, a middle class father with a family? We all have healthcare through employer. The insurance is good and we pay a decent rate for a family of five. That is my main question? If an individual doesn't have insurance but must get it now because of obamacare where does he get it from, and insurance company or the gov't?

- You will now be guaranteed access to & will save money on a wide range of preventive care services.
- You can't be discriminated against due to any pre-existing condition.
- Your wife can't be descriminated against because of her gender.
- Your children can stay on your policy until they are 26.
- Your insurance company will be required to spend a certain percentage on actual health care instead of administrative overhead.
- Et cetera.

_ · October 2012

Cosmo wrote:

_ wrote:

1. We already pay enough to cover everyone. We just don't want to cover them, regardless of cost.

2. What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it?

...
Wait... are you asking if we would give up our Ten Club memberships... if it would save the life of another human being?
Well, personally... My answer is ABSOLUTELY YES! My Ten Club membership isn't even in my top 100 Life priorities list... to forfeit it in order to save a human being from dying, my question is... which Ten Club Member wouldn't ?

The ones who feel that they can't afford to contribute to the health care of others.

_ · October 2012

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

In the early 90s I backpacked Costa Rica. I was there for a month. For those that don't know, Costa Rica sits nestled between Nicaragua and Panama in Central America.

When I went, I was aware that there had been relatively recent and bloody civil stuggles in both countries neighbouring Costa Rica (Nicaragua in 1979 and Panama had issues in the later 80s).

Costa Rica was very comparable to both of those countries in terms of land, resources and population demographics. That beautiful country had none of the problems its neighbours had. In fact, they did not even have an army when I travelled there.

What was the difference? I've got an idea: Costa Rica provided public education and medical to its citizens. With this in mind, I would be so bold as to suggest that when a government takes care of all its people instead of treating themselves and their closest associates with the life of luxury (decadent 'Rome' style with complete disregard for the peasants or 'middle and lower classes')... a country stands its greatest chance of succeeding.

I'm really proud of Canada's medical system. We don't sit here and squabble about who's paying more, who's not paying, who needs to pay more. We just treat those that need it. Speaking for all of us... our medical system is at the top of our priorities for how we want our taxes spent.

Maybe instead of fighting against a fair and decent medical system accessible to all... you should look and see how tax dollars are currently spent and consider redistributing what is already collected?

Without having read too much of Obama's plan, I would suggest that he's on the right track. Some of you that speak against taxes helping out those that need it... well... geez man... really? You haven't paid as much as me so tough shit?

C'mon, man!

I agree. I would say that health care & education are matters of national security (safety & economic security).

_ · October 2012

Cosmo wrote:

...
Honest answer... i don't know exactly what the question was. here it is again:
"What if all it would cost you for us to provide health care to everyone was the price of a 10C membership? Are your posting privileges and good seats worth more than the lives and health of your fellow (wo)man? Or would you still pay your annual 10C dues and say to let people die because you can't afford it"
It was a very odd question that i tried to answer to the best of my abilities.

Sorry to not be more clear. I guess I'm just noticing how so many people say they don't want to pitch in for everyone to have health care because they can't afford it - but yet they can somehow afford more trivial things. I think it's more about their values than it is about money. (This is the same argument the same people make against so many of the people who benefit from social services - that it's not that they can't pay, but just that they don't want to - so it must be true.

)

Generally speaking, those who can't afford to pay into a universal healthcare system are the ones who will be benefiting from it - not the ones who will be paying more - so I don't buy the argument that those who can afford to pitch in are opposing such a system for the benefit of those who can't afford it.

Red Mosquito75 · October 2012

_ wrote:

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

How is obamacare going to affect me, a middle class father with a family? We all have healthcare through employer. The insurance is good and we pay a decent rate for a family of five. That is my main question? If an individual doesn't have insurance but must get it now because of obamacare where does he get it from, and insurance company or the gov't?

- You will now be guaranteed access to & will save money on a wide range of preventive care services.
- You can't be discriminated against due to any pre-existing condition.
- Your wife can't be descriminated against because of her gender.
- Your children can stay on your policy until they are 26.
- Your insurance company will be required to spec a certain percentage on actual health care instead of administrative overhead.
- Et cetera.

Sounds pretty good for someone like me. What is wrong with Obamacare then

_ · October 2012

In case anyone's interested in what the Affordable Care Act actually says, you can read it here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111h ... 590enr.pdf

You don't have to read all 900 pages to just verify whatever it is you've read on a chain email or answer any questions you may have; the table of contents & the search feature of your electronic device will help you find what you're looking for (unless, of course, it's not actually there).

_ · October 2012

Also, here are a shit-ton of good basic resources to help people understand it, including summaries, calculators, animations, etc:

http://healthreform.kff.org/en/the-basics.aspx

And another good (and official) website that can answer all your questions & that provides an even more searchable view of the full text:

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/index.html

Cosmo · October 2012

_ wrote:

Sorry to not be more clear. I guess I'm just noticing how so many people say they don't want to pitch in for everyone to have health care because they can't afford it - but yet they can somehow afford more trivial things. I think it's more about their values than it is about money. (This is the same argument the same people make against so many of the people who benefit from social services - that it's not that they can't pay, but just that they don't want to - so it must be true. )

Generally speaking, those who can't afford to pay into a universal healthcare system are the ones who will be benefiting from it - not the ones who will be paying more - so I don't buy the argument that those who can afford to pitch in are opposing such a system for the benefit of those who can't afford it.

...
Thanx for the clarification... and i agree with you 100%.
The fact of the matter is that someone may become gravely ill and not be able to pay for the costs to save their lives... so, we write them off and let them die. As a society, should we be okay with that?
If we are okay with that... That would mean, only the people who could afford to pay for the doctors, hospitals and medicine deserve to live and people who cannot pay should just be left to die. What does that say about us... we are the United States of America. We are supposed to be better than a nation that places the value money over that of humans... ALL Humans. At least, that is what I thought we stood for.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe being American is all about me... what is mine... what's in it for me.

_ · October 2012

Cosmo wrote:

_ wrote:

Sorry to not be more clear. I guess I'm just noticing how so many people say they don't want to pitch in for everyone to have health care because they can't afford it - but yet they can somehow afford more trivial things. I think it's more about their values than it is about money. (This is the same argument the same people make against so many of the people who benefit from social services - that it's not that they can't pay, but just that they don't want to - so it must be true. )

Generally speaking, those who can't afford to pay into a universal healthcare system are the ones who will be benefiting from it - not the ones who will be paying more - so I don't buy the argument that those who can afford to pitch in are opposing such a system for the benefit of those who can't afford it.

...
Thanx for the clarification... and i agree with you 100%.
The fact of the matter is that someone may become gravely ill and not be able to pay for the costs to save their lives... so, we write them off and let them die. As a society, should we be okay with that?
If we are okay with that... That would mean, only the people who could afford to pay for the doctors, hospitals and medicine deserve to live and people who cannot pay should just be left to die. What does that say about us... we are the United States of America. We are supposed to be better than a nation that places the value money over that of humans... ALL Humans. At least, that is what I thought we stood for.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe being American is all about me... what is mine... what's in it for me.

I totally agree. And you remind me of that great quote from Stephen Colbert: “If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” (Not to bring religion into it. But we could substitute "If this is going to be a Christian nation" with "If we're going to call ourselves a great & civilized nation" or some such thing & extrapolate from there.)

Prince Of Dorkness · October 2012

Red Mosquito75 wrote:

Sounds pretty good for someone like me. What is wrong with Obamacare then

If you ask me, the biggest problems are..

1) it doesn't make the rich richer. In fact, it actually forces health insurance companies to provide the service that they took money to provide. They are no longer able to just cut someone off the moment they get sick.

2) it provides for "them." As much as we might try to deny this, many people in this country get a big kick out of spitting on the ones below them. Obamacare means that we're providing for the least of us. And some just don't like that.

3) That black man brought it in. And although this is about as far from "socialist" as a universal healthcare law could get, many on the right are still furious that he won the last election. And since the "he's a socialist" mantra from the "head in ass" community is still echoing through their cavernous assholes, this was a great "OH MY GOD!!! IT'S COMMUNIISM RIGHT NOW!!!" moment to exploit the "head in ass" community's lack of understanding of words like "socialist."

4) He promised "Change." And this is a pretty big change. And a positive one. And Republicans have fought tooth and nail to stop any kind of change from happening so they can shout "I VOTED FOR CHANGE (no, they didn't, they voted for John McCain and the Queen of the head-in-ass community) AND I DIDNT GET IT!!!! WWHHHAAAAA!"

Obamacare sucks

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