An unhealthy culture: What do we do?

RW81233 · May 2012

polaris_x wrote:

i dunno man ... i remember when vince carter and tracy mcgrady were going to the all star game and they were asked what they wanted for dinner and they said mcnuggets ...

to me ... the obesity issue is an example of what truly is wrong with america ... a corporately controlled gov't ... this corporatized gov't does this:

1. it allows industry to control the FDA - allowing shit practices and cancer causing chemicals to enter the food system ... also, allowing the food industry to be de-regulated ... see things like what is fat-free or all-natural ...
2. an unhealthy america is very profitable to many industries ... see insurance, health care, pharmaceuticals, etc ... there is an incentive to keep america unhealthy - profiteering ... just look at the commercials in the states ... it seems 1 in 3 is a drug related ad ...
3. the use of GMOs and pesticides had lowered the nutritional value of food in general ... so, even tho people are eating "vegetables" ... they likely don't contain the same nutritional content as they once did ... nevermind how the introduction of gmo's may be linked to other health related issues
4. the prosperity gap ... the rich have better access to good food ... it's a joke that "food" that is heavily processed and contains all kinds of shit is cheaper to buy than real food ...

combine this with the issue of entitled excess ... in america, more is better ... the result is that in general you have what you have ...

this

Godfather. · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

I hate articles like these...they perpetuate a false science driven by the corporate takeover of the university, and FDA by food and pharma companies. Put differently the BMI is a bullshit way to make causal conclusions about an individual's health - insurance companies since the 1980s have been giving up on it (see: Campos, 2003). Secondly, by making obesity a problem of the individual person to overcome it makes it all too easy to shield us from the real issues driving the obesity marketplace. More specifically, fatness or thinness is not a reliable marker for us to use when it comes to health outcomes, but the very things that do make us less healthy (namely the shitty nutrition in our overprocessed, steroid injected, pink-sludge, food) is much more closely linked to poor health (see: Gard, 2011; Gard & Wright, 2005). That shit makes us less healthy if we are fat or thin. However, with a marketing plan and billions of dollars to donate to the University where academics are supposed to become entrepreneurs by taking on corporate grant funding to make up for the fact that tax dollars aren't paying them anymore it's much easier to make false claims about obesity or overstate how bad it is (cf. Campos, 2003; Oliver, 2004).

What we should be doing instead of worrying about how fat or thin everyone is and sending them on some sort of workout regime is to look closely at the food and drinks that we are consuming. Often these companies like Pepsi, Coke, Pfizer, and others are grant sources for academics. Is it any wonder then that researchers say that pepsi and coke can be consumed in moderation with no ill-effect despite the fact that soda is strongly linked to cancer? Is it any wonder that the best way to combat "obesity" is by consuming some miracle pill that will lose you weight produced by Pfizer? Obesity is a fucking hoax, and it's sad that the President's wife fell for it - along with many others. Importantly, and following Gard (2008) whose anti-obesity research has been taken up by corporations and libertarian organizations who say "if obesity isn't bad then we can sell and eat whatever on the free market" that's not the case either. We should be concerned with the nutrition or lack thereof in the food system, but we shouldn't necessarily be concerned with how fat people are other than it is an indication of how capitalism has ruined nutrition.

wow !! something we agree on.
there some people who have a very hard time loosing any weight no matter what they eat but I agree with your post for the most part.

Godfather.

inlet13 · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

whygohome wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47211549/ns/health-diet_and_nutrition/#.T57YuuxJhnM

A good read. This figure stuck out.

Nationally, that comes to $190 billion a year in additional medical spending as a result of obesity, calculated Cawley, or 20.6 percent of U.S. health care expenditures.

We stop trying to act like we can control people and we focus on incentives. Let me give an example,...

1) We try to promote economic and job growth (via incentives, not via pretending like gov't "creates" jobs)
2) As the economy improves and people gain more "real" money, they are less likely to buy shit fast food (this has been shown statistically)
3) Companies would be more likely to move towards more wellness programs as they realize there are cost-saving benefits (in healthcare, that is, if we go towards a more market-based system).

via point 3 isn't that big government intervention in the market?

No. It's not.

If we really priced healthcare with "market " rates for individuals based on "risk", with no intervention (or as limited as possible) it would make more sense for companies to do everything in their power to lower risks. Wellness programs would expand because companies seek to lower costs and profit maximize.

The further we move away from risk-based pricing, the further we move into situations where incentives are lacking.

Jason P · May 2012

Don't forget about the general attitude that a problem is always someone else's fault and responsibility to fix.

Forget about the part where you have to send motor-neurons to actually pick food up, stick it in your mouth, chew and process it. Ignore that and focus on the real evil ... capitalism.

:crazy:

inlet13 · May 2012

Jason P wrote:

Don't forget about the general attitude that a problem is always someone else's fault and responsibility to fix.

This.

Yep, it's constant deflection.... in everything. We see it on the train every day. It's always someone or something else's fault. It's never the individual. Personal responsibility has become a thing of the past.

It's not really an economic problem, but more of a societal (yet individualized) problem. Lots of people eat bad food to "feel good". What needs to change is that mindset,... society-wide. That starts individually.

RW81233 · May 2012

Godfather. wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

I hate articles like these...they perpetuate a false science driven by the corporate takeover of the university, and FDA by food and pharma companies. Put differently the BMI is a bullshit way to make causal conclusions about an individual's health - insurance companies since the 1980s have been giving up on it (see: Campos, 2003). Secondly, by making obesity a problem of the individual person to overcome it makes it all too easy to shield us from the real issues driving the obesity marketplace. More specifically, fatness or thinness is not a reliable marker for us to use when it comes to health outcomes, but the very things that do make us less healthy (namely the shitty nutrition in our overprocessed, steroid injected, pink-sludge, food) is much more closely linked to poor health (see: Gard, 2011; Gard & Wright, 2005). That shit makes us less healthy if we are fat or thin. However, with a marketing plan and billions of dollars to donate to the University where academics are supposed to become entrepreneurs by taking on corporate grant funding to make up for the fact that tax dollars aren't paying them anymore it's much easier to make false claims about obesity or overstate how bad it is (cf. Campos, 2003; Oliver, 2004).

What we should be doing instead of worrying about how fat or thin everyone is and sending them on some sort of workout regime is to look closely at the food and drinks that we are consuming. Often these companies like Pepsi, Coke, Pfizer, and others are grant sources for academics. Is it any wonder then that researchers say that pepsi and coke can be consumed in moderation with no ill-effect despite the fact that soda is strongly linked to cancer? Is it any wonder that the best way to combat "obesity" is by consuming some miracle pill that will lose you weight produced by Pfizer? Obesity is a fucking hoax, and it's sad that the President's wife fell for it - along with many others. Importantly, and following Gard (2008) whose anti-obesity research has been taken up by corporations and libertarian organizations who say "if obesity isn't bad then we can sell and eat whatever on the free market" that's not the case either. We should be concerned with the nutrition or lack thereof in the food system, but we shouldn't necessarily be concerned with how fat people are other than it is an indication of how capitalism has ruined nutrition.

wow !! something we agree on.
there some people who have a very hard time loosing any weight no matter what they eat but I agree with your post for the most part.

Godfather.

as a poker player might say "one time"

pandora · May 2012

Jason P wrote:

Don't forget about the general attitude that a problem is always someone else's fault and responsibility to fix.

Forget about the part where you have to send motor-neurons to actually pick food up, stick it in your mouth, chew and process it. Ignore that and focus on the real evil ... capitalism.

:crazy:

it is up to said motor neurons to make the choice and it is up to you if you
would be so accepting of others to understand this the basic right to personal freedoms

you assume fat people blame others for their 'problem' when in fact it is not a problem
until others make it so

this through assumption and judgment yet again

RW81233 · May 2012

inlet13 wrote:

Jason P wrote:

Don't forget about the general attitude that a problem is always someone else's fault and responsibility to fix.

This.

Yep, it's constant deflection.... in everything. We see it on the train every day. It's always someone or something else's fault. It's never the individual. Personal responsibility has become a thing of the past.

It's not really an economic problem, but more of a societal (yet individualized) problem. Lots of people eat bad food to "feel good". What needs to change is that mindset,... society-wide. That starts individually.

so we all operate and act in an individualist vacuum thereby denying the very context from which we emerge and are a and effectively influenced? i mean if you don't have access, opportunity, or encouragement to nutrition or healthful behavior then how the fuck is that the individuals fault? you make it seem as if its easy to overcome a situation where children know and desire the logos and commercials for thousands of different types of junk food brands by being personally responsible before they possess the ability to actively think against what the commercials are selling them. or to get good food where it is becoming less and less available. full disclosure i have spent the last three years doing research on this issue, and went into it thinking that obesity was "bad" and that there were ways to solve it at the individual level (originally i wanted to start getting bike lanes put in at my school, more nutritious food sold in the lunchrooms, etc. and have run into a variety of problems posed by the corporate contracts my school has).

chadwick · May 2012

healthy foods, smaller portions, exercise, and hard work & hard play = a healthier individual. driving a semi truck for 10 years or so required me to sit on my ass for extreme lengths of time. that is no way to live. i gained a lot of blubber on my ass at that time. that was so fucked.

nowadays i eat healthier than ever and swim one or more miles daily 5-7 days a week and walk everyday. sure i do miss a day of walking every once in awhile due to needing my knees replaced and living w/ extreme knee pain sucks bigtime. im a big bastard when i am bone skinny. i am more active than my thin ass friends who do nothing. i have friends who watch tv and or play video games all day and eat shit food. i see some friends of mine feed their children tons of junk foods. it is the scariest thing to watch. the kids actually will kill if not given their donuts.

if i had a kid the very last thing on earth i'd feed him or her would be donuts and the like. these unhealthy parents and kids are slamming down sodas like water. i am amazed at this behavior. when i see people drinking sodas day in and day out everyday all day long and that is all that they drink... i am wanting to bitch slap the fuck out of them. i think to myself, "you are a fucking fool" and, "your choice and taste in drinks is fucking retarded" "pick up a glass of water you dumb ass" and then there's those who consume crate after crate of diet soda. them fuckers need beat with a large stick

inlet13 · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

Jason P wrote:

Don't forget about the general attitude that a problem is always someone else's fault and responsibility to fix.

This.

Yep, it's constant deflection.... in everything. We see it on the train every day. It's always someone or something else's fault. It's never the individual. Personal responsibility has become a thing of the past.

It's not really an economic problem, but more of a societal (yet individualized) problem. Lots of people eat bad food to "feel good". What needs to change is that mindset,... society-wide. That starts individually.

so we all operate and act in an individualist vacuum thereby denying the very context from which we emerge and are a and effectively influenced? i mean if you don't have access, opportunity, or encouragement to nutrition or healthful behavior then how the fuck is that the individuals fault? you make it seem as if its easy to overcome a situation where children know and desire the logos and commercials for thousands of different types of junk food brands by being personally responsible before they possess the ability to actively think against what the commercials are selling them. or to get good food where it is becoming less and less available. full disclosure i have spent the last three years doing research on this issue, and went into it thinking that obesity was "bad" and that there were ways to solve it at the individual level (originally i wanted to start getting bike lanes put in at my school, more nutritious food sold in the lunchrooms, etc. and have run into a variety of problems posed by the corporate contracts my school has).

We all make choices, individually... yes. Now, does marketing influences some of us to buy bad products? Sure. Does the fat surrounding our guts influence us to try to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of friends to play sports influence us? Sure. Does good parenting help us to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of high salary help adults steer away from organic food? Sure. There's so many things one could "deflect" this problem to...

...But, at the end of the day - for those 18+, WE do make choices as INDIVIDUALS to put pieces of food inside our mouths, chew it, then swallow.

mikalina · May 2012

Healthy eating begins at an early age - teaching children "portion" sizes is very important. We super size every meal and soft drink that we get our hands on.

Its expensive but buying the ( 100 calorie ) snacks teach children the correct amount to eat. I show my children portion size and calories all the time so they understand what they eat.

Eating at home instead of fast food is a big help in keeping a healthy weight. This is easier said than done because most parents work and fast and quick is much easier.

Getting kids to play outside and exersize is so important.

There is no easy answer but we need to eat less,healthier foods and move more....

RW81233 · May 2012

inlet13 wrote:

We all make choices, individually... yes. Now, does marketing influences some of us to buy bad products? Sure. Does the fat surrounding our guts influence us to try to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of friends to play sports influence us? Sure. Does good parenting help us to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of high salary help adults steer away from organic food? Sure. There's so many things one could "deflect" this problem to...

...But, at the end of the day - for those 18+, WE do make choices as INDIVIDUALS to put pieces of food inside our mouths, chew it, then swallow.

so we just leave everything we learned and lived with before we were 18 behind? i don't agree at all.

inlet13 · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

We all make choices, individually... yes. Now, does marketing influences some of us to buy bad products? Sure. Does the fat surrounding our guts influence us to try to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of friends to play sports influence us? Sure. Does good parenting help us to avoid bad products? Sure. Does lack of high salary help adults steer away from organic food? Sure. There's so many things one could "deflect" this problem to...

...But, at the end of the day - for those 18+, WE do make choices as INDIVIDUALS to put pieces of food inside our mouths, chew it, then swallow.

so we just leave everything we learned and lived with before we were 18 behind? i don't agree at all.

Nope.

Not saying we leave everything we learned or lived with before we were 18 behind. Instead, I'd argue, our parents, or the people raising us, are primarily responsible for what we eat in our youngest years. That said, even pre-18, say at the age of 12 we are making some of own decisions. Our parents, or those who raise us, steer us in the beginning. It's originally their responsibility (say 0-10), then it becomes mixed (10-18), then it becomes ours alone (post-18).... who knows... we may be responsible for our own child's down the line (if we have one) too. ...

Responsibility is a tough subject for deflectionists to grasp.

Jason P · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

so we all operate and act in an individualist vacuum thereby denying the very context from which we emerge and are a and effectively influenced? i mean if you don't have access, opportunity, or encouragement to nutrition or healthful behavior then how the fuck is that the individuals fault? you make it seem as if its easy to overcome a situation where children know and desire the logos and commercials for thousands of different types of junk food brands by being personally responsible before they possess the ability to actively think against what the commercials are selling them. or to get good food where it is becoming less and less available. full disclosure i have spent the last three years doing research on this issue, and went into it thinking that obesity was "bad" and that there were ways to solve it at the individual level (originally i wanted to start getting bike lanes put in at my school, more nutritious food sold in the lunchrooms, etc. and have run into a variety of problems posed by the corporate contracts my school has).

I stated clearly in one of my earlier posts that everything you mentioned above is part of the problem. It's part of the problem. It isn't the problem itself.

Pizza Hut used to give me coupons for reading books in their book-it program. I was encouraged to read books and Pizza Hut built brand-identity in me. Is that evil? All companies strive at building brand recognition. The ones that don't are not if business for very long.

At a certain point when my metabolism wore down, so did my Pizza Hut intake. That is where the individual must take charge.

Is the Apple iPad in cahoots with Pfizer and Frito Lay? Is it a good sign when the NFL or your Nintendo Wii have to beg kids to go outside and play for 60 minutes? As I mentioned earlier, my childhood diet consisted of Slim Jims, Tombstone pizza's, and Doritos. But my parents damn near had to send out search parties to drag me back into the house at night and for some strange reason, I was not overweight.

polaris_x · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

so we just leave everything we learned and lived with before we were 18 behind? i don't agree at all.

people have to take responsibility for their actions ... it's no one's fault if someone doesn't know the food they are eating is laced with chemicals and pesticides nor is it anyone fault that things they may not want to eat are put into foods without labeling ... it's also no one's fault that if someone is poor that they have to choose fruit loops for breakfast instead of granola ... and for the love of all that is pure and sacred in this world - don't go blaming fast food joints - they are a national treasure ... they feed everyone rich and poor and offer food at such low prices ... they should be commended!

mikepegg44 · May 2012

RW81233 wrote:

so we all operate and act in an individualist vacuum thereby denying the very context from which we emerge and are a and effectively influenced? i mean if you don't have access, opportunity, or encouragement to nutrition or healthful behavior then how the fuck is that the individuals fault? you make it seem as if its easy to overcome a situation where children know and desire the logos and commercials for thousands of different types of junk food brands by being personally responsible before they possess the ability to actively think against what the commercials are selling them. or to get good food where it is becoming less and less available. full disclosure i have spent the last three years doing research on this issue, and went into it thinking that obesity was "bad" and that there were ways to solve it at the individual level (originally i wanted to start getting bike lanes put in at my school, more nutritious food sold in the lunchrooms, etc. and have run into a variety of problems posed by the corporate contracts my school has).

for me it is simple. We may not get to choose the lot we have in life...but no one can take away our ability to make decisions. If we cannot make decisions we all might as well give up. If I have A and B to choose from, I probably don't always get to pick what A and B are, but I can always decide for myself whether I want A or I want B. You seem to argue the position that people aren't responsible for their decisions because they didn't have the choices that every other individual had...It is pretty obvious kids are influenced by advertising...adults are influenced by advertising, as well as by kids who were influenced by advertising...but who is at fault for falling prey to those ads...the ad executives who came up with a great campaign, or the person who simply believed what they saw and had little self control...I could certainly be wrong.

I will agree that It is very important to re-educate people on what it means to eat healthy, what it means to be healthy...My wife and past girlfriends have always talked about being skinny as if skinny was always healthy. I don't understand it. It might be a side effect of being healthy, but it certainly doesn't mean you are healthy. But you cannot force those things on people. You can offer the class but you cannot make people learn.
But isn't eliminating for profit food companies a bit? This may not be what you are saying, but it is how I am reading it so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong...but basically you are advocating for taking away stuff for the group at large, because some members of the group may not be able to handle that stuff responsibly... is that assumption correct?

So as far as Obesity goes...we deal with the symptoms as they arise. If someone is unhealthy and the doctor thinks losing weight will help than great...but obesity doesn't = unhealthy, especially when it is measured by the BMI. Most athletes are considered overweight, even some obese...but would anyone really consider the majority of them unhealthy because of it? I am pushing obese on the bmi scale, but I have a resting heart rate of 52

whygohome · May 2012

It seems that the inclusion of the word "Obesity" in the title of the thread pissed some people off; so, I have replaced that word with something more applicable to American society, and far less "controversial."

The bottom line is that a significant part of our citizenry is unhealthy. (You can define unhealthy any way you want.) And, this is having a negative impact on healthcare costs, which brings up a new discussion, or more accurately, a question that most people ask: Why am I paying for your unhealthy lifestyle? It is an intrusion of the personal into the social. (Maybe they should require everyone to have their own health insurance, like through a mandate or something. I think I read about that in an American Enterprise Institute or Heritage Foundation report.....

[laugh folks, it's good for you])

Anyway, you have all put forth very good reasons/causes for this problem and that was the point of this thread.

pandora · May 2012

So everyone seems to be agreeing it is a matter of personal choice
now can we go pass that and say whatever the choice is it is not a wrong one
just a personal one. And it is indeed healthy for some people to be overweight,
both mentally and physically.

It comes down to body image and how a person feels about them self.
Many thin people seem to assume fat people are unhappy because they themselves would be if they were fat.
This not true for all fat people. Having been a size 20 and a size 8 and back again
I honestly can say I like myself somewhere in between, a med plus size lady.
When I was an 8 I never felt thin,
that is the body image problem of a fat child, it wasn't me.
And although I was smaller than most of my lady friends I was forever uncomfortable
feeling not right and still overweight.
This when some of the eating disorders can come into play, fortunately for me they did not
but we see many women living their lives coping with them.

So if we can say it is a personal choice and not always a wrong one for all,
we can hopefully look at others with more insight
not just what the scale reads and judge them based on that.

Back to the children, I mentioned earlier a complex issue with many factors at play.
On a positive note we are seeing change and awareness as someone else mentioned
so in the generations to come hopefully people will work at being healthy
whatever size they choose to be and they will be accepted as so, healthy and beautiful

Kel Varnsen · May 2012

whygohome wrote:

A good read. This figure stuck out.
Nationally, that comes to $190 billion a year in additional medical spending as a result of obesity, calculated Cawley, or 20.6 percent of U.S. health care expenditures.

I read the article and saw that number and it got me wondering something (that the article didn't really address). Ok Obese people cost an extra 190 billion for additional medical spending. But what about the potential savings. I mean yes an obese person costs more when they are alive, but a guy who is 400 pounds+ probably isn't going to be living into his 90's and collecting social security and medicare benefits for 25 years while not working. So that has to be a huge savings and I wonder how that compares to the additional costs associated with obese people when they are alive.

whygohome · May 2012

Kel Varnsen wrote:

whygohome wrote:

A good read. This figure stuck out.
Nationally, that comes to $190 billion a year in additional medical spending as a result of obesity, calculated Cawley, or 20.6 percent of U.S. health care expenditures.

I read the article and saw that number and it got me wondering something (that the article didn't really address). Ok Obese people cost an extra 190 billion for additional medical spending. But what about the potential savings. I mean yes an obese person costs more when they are alive, but a guy who is 400 pounds+ probably isn't going to be living into his 90's and collecting social security and medicare benefits for 25 years while not working. So that has to be a huge savings and I wonder how that compares to the additional costs associated with obese people when they are alive.

A good point; something to ponder.

An unhealthy culture: What do we do?

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