When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.
I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).
I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.
I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?
This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.
I think this is clearly a superior system. My seniority is hard earned and important to me so I would also hope that is preserved when it's PJ...
"Hard Earned"... I LIKE the 'Philosophy' of that!...
[ :twisted: ]Yes, but it's "unfair" that everyone pays the same membership fee (yes, there are different levels), but some have the opportunity at better seats. So clearly if we need to go to a ticket lottery because it's more "fair", then we need to go to 100% lottery seating to be fair. [/ :twisted: ]
When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.
I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).
I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.
I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?
This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.
How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.
People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.
How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.
since the 10c tickets are "the best in teh house" they would make a killing on the front row seats, and mabye break even on teh last row that htey get seats.
obviously, they would have a small window in which to operate
Here's a rough cut:
Lottery requests ahead of Fan Club Pre-Sale:
You choose ONE show. More than one disqualifies you.
Ten/VHC sorts through the requests... just like this past Eddie Vedder lottery.
Note: Winning lottery seats are ordered by seniority. No more rows 1,2,9,10 lottery.
Notifications sent out, PayPal transaction completed. Prior to Fan Club Pre-Sale.
...
Fan Club Pre-Sale:
All you can eat, gluttonous clusterfuck with crashing servers and F5 refreshes. The Fan Club servers primarily serve a message board and a store that sells an occasional onesie or a pair of socks. Don't waste money on expensive hardware/software for the concert ticket anomaly.
If the Fan club can work out deals with TicketMaster, TicketFly, TicketWeb... on certain venues, great.
Note: Seating will be by seniority, AFTER those seated from the previous lottery.
...
If you miss both... there is always the Public On-Sale.
...
That would be 3 chances to score tix. If you did win the lottery with your one pick and are in the 400,000 range of the fan club, you get a great seat. If you are fan member 000,002 and you win the lottery... you still get the first row. Be grateful, not selfish. You stiil will have great seats at the gigs that weren't your one pick.
...
Optional:
Multiple shows. For those tickets bought during the pre-sale (excluding the pre-Pre-Sale lottery), Seniority in asending order (000,001 to 999,999 - front to back) for night one... descending order (999,999 to 000,001) for night two.
...
Completely abolish the Rows 1,2,9,10 lottery to remove all the crap about 'fairness'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.
I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).
I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.
I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?
This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.
I see what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as a likely scenario. How many of us know 25 people we would be confident approaching with a scam like this?
"Hey, wanna help me scalp some tickets? All I need for you to do is sign up for a 10C membership under your own name, using your own email address, and using your own credit card, and then enter a ticket lottery (again, using your own name, email and credit card) and THEN I need you to personally show up with your ID to pick up the tickets. Don't worry, though, I will do the actual scalping. Sound good?"
Wouldn't these friends look at you like you were a) a little nuts and b) kinda pathetic? Do we really think this would be a widespread problem? I just don't see it.
Optional:
Multiple shows. For those tickets bought during the pre-sale (excluding the pre-Pre-Sale lottery), Seniority in asending order (000,001 to 999,999 - front to back) for night one... descending order (999,999 to 000,001) for night two.
I'll say it again, this is a terrible idea. People will be signing their spouse up for a $20 second membership as late as possible to get the highest number possible. Think of the server crash minutes before the membership deadline, and the complaining. Meanwhile the people in the middle get screwed. For years they have been stuck at the back of the 10C Floor seats, waiting for the people in front of them to give someone else a chance to move up front. They also watch the people with worse numbers than them get better seats on the side of the stage. Maybe someone should do something for folks in the middle of the 10C pack.
People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.
Using the phrase “in fact” doesn’t just let you state your misguided opinion without any supporting evidence. Plenty of common sense reasons were stated as to why a lottery would diminish every individual’s odds of getting tickets. It’s not really up for debate, but if you are going to try, at least attempt to support your point.
How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.
There have been plenty of times I have sat next to people with scalped fan club tickets and after 30+ shows since 1994, I am aware of how Pearl Jam ticket sales works. My point was that the awful ticket server was a "barrier to entry" for scalpers (and unfortunately many fans) in the PJ concert world. Once we remove that barrier, the "cost", in terms of time and effort, of getting tickets becomes much near zero. That makes casual scalping much, much easier.
As the other poster said, you don't have to know the seat locations to be successful at it. Just using the wording "Fan Club Seating" or "10 Club seating reserved for long time fans, seats TBD" will be enough to profit on a resale. Check out Craigslist in cities for the EV shows as they get closer. You will see exactly what I mean. I am not suggesting that this doesn't happen now or other systems would prevent it, but making it easier for fans by default makes it easier for scalpers and making it easier for scalpers will mean more of them.
People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.
Well, I don't believe they have committed to any particular ticketing system yet, so the assumption that there will be a limit to the number of shows one 10c'er can buy for may not be correct, but for the sake of discussion, let's say it is. What makes you think everyone won't pick the same shows? Or are you assuming everyone would apply for fan club tickets to their local shows first? Look back at 2010; there were shows in Hartford, Newark, and two at MSG, including the final night of the tour. If you lived in that area and had to pick, which would you choose? My bet would be that most people will take MSG-II based on the history of shows there, though I recognize a few will try and game the system by picking smaller market venues.
Let's also not forget that the likely thousands of fans of have been turned off by the F5 fiascoes will be back in the ticket buying mix. This is a good thing for the fan base. It's been a great source of frustration here that so many people can't get tickets because they work jobs that don't allow them to sit there and refresh for hours or they just don't want to put up with that shit. BUT, we need to honest about what this means for the ticket buying populace as a whole. Many, many more people will be trying for tickets and you cannot "beat" them through patience and persistence and a good keyboard, so your individual chances for tickets will go down.
I see what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as a likely scenario. How many of us know 25 people we would be confident approaching with a scam like this?
That scenario was not particularly practical, but it doesn't have to be 25, that number just made the math easier. Again, the lotto makes the ticketing just like Powerball. Casual scalpers put in $20 for their ticket and click their mouse a half dozen times, and if they win, they win. If they lose, they are out $20 bucks (For the year no matter how many tours come up) and have to try again next round. You don't don't necessarily have to get a whole conspiracy going.
That's one way of doing things, but I don't really agree with that. If I had to pick, I would suggest something along the lines of what was done with the Canada presale last year and use Ticketmaster. Each 10cer gets a unique password, the shows go on sale on a Saturday morning with staggered start times, and sufficient advanced warning of the entire tour schedule is given to fans so they can plan which show(s) to attend. The other change would be that rows 1 &2, and every third row after that would be randomly selected from the fan club. This helps mitigate the way people with numbers from ~200k to ~300k get screwed on seats at every single show while maintaining the seniority that keeps people in the system during non-touring years.
I realize that many people object to TM. I'm not a fan either, but if we disconnect ourselves from PJ history, I think it becomes clear that TM is the way to go. Not only do they have the most robust online system, which the 10c has used successfully as recently as last fall, they own or have exclusive contracts with most of the venues anyway so it's not like PJ can avoid doing business with them.
How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.
since the 10c tickets are "the best in teh house" they would make a killing on the front row seats, and mabye break even on teh last row that htey get seats.
obviously, they would have a small window in which to operate
They already do that. What difference does it make which system is used?
How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.
since the 10c tickets are "the best in teh house" they would make a killing on the front row seats, and mabye break even on teh last row that htey get seats.
obviously, they would have a small window in which to operate
They already do that. What difference does it make which system is used?
It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.
[It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.[/quote]
Well said. All I want is for 10c to take care of this sabatoge business or whatever the hell causes us to have to refresh for 7 hours to get tickets and be more communicative. I don't want the few people who post here nonstop to be the voice for all 10c members.
It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.
So the best solution is to leave the servers as is and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible to deter scalpers? Just not getting your reasoning. Again, there's plenty of people that REALLY want the tickets that don't have the time to sit in front of a computer for hours. Just b/c they don't have a job that promotes laziness doesn't mean they are less deserving of those tickets. It shouldn't be a battle to get them.
Another failed analogy....Did you ever camp out for tickets, get to the window while they were still available and have the person in the booth "refresh" you to the back of the line?
So the best solution is to leave the servers as is and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible to deter scalpers? Just not getting your reasoning. Again, there's plenty of people that REALLY want the tickets that don't have the time to sit in front of a computer for hours. Just b/c they don't have a job that promotes laziness doesn't mean they are less deserving of those tickets. It shouldn't be a battle to get them.
Another failed analogy....Did you ever camp out for tickets, get to the window while they were still available and have the person in the booth "refresh" you to the back of the line?
[It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.
Well said. All I want is for 10c to take care of this sabatoge business or whatever the hell causes us to have to refresh for 7 hours to get tickets and be more communicative. I don't want the few people who post here nonstop to be the voice for all 10c members.
I am happy that I am not the only person who dislikes the lotto idea, but I do not agree with the idea that the people who sit there and hit F5 are the ones who deserve the tickets most. Some people have other responsibilities, like kids or work or court mandated community service, that force them away the computer. They are not lesser fans or less deserving.
I do think part of the appeal of the lotto is that it make it easier to rationalize losing. If you lose the lotto, you think "that sucks, oh well". If you wail on your keyboard for two hours and lose, you get angry and emotionally upset. In this way the lotto definitely appeals to the "no one should feel even a moment of pain" mentality of our modern culture, but it's not a "darn kids" thing, nor is it fair to equate the old days of sleeping outside tower records with what happened with the abysmal ticketing server we have dealt with for years. Though there are plenty of entitled whiners on this boards... just look at any thread that starts "An Open Letter To" or the generally embarrassing reaction to the backpacks selling out. You would think people's puppies were getting stabbed by Tim and Kat based on some of the posts.
So the best solution is to leave the servers as is and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible to deter scalpers? Just not getting your reasoning. Again, there's plenty of people that REALLY want the tickets that don't have the time to sit in front of a computer for hours. Just b/c they don't have a job that promotes laziness doesn't mean they are less deserving of those tickets. It shouldn't be a battle to get them.
Another failed analogy....Did you ever camp out for tickets, get to the window while they were still available and have the person in the booth "refresh" you to the back of the line?
Now THIS was well said.
No, that's not the best solution. Seems like everyone just accepts that the servers are fucked and this is the way it is and always will be? It wasn't always like this. Where's the pressure on 10c to get this situation fixed? I understand if there is an issue of "sabotage"...ok no i don't, but we have been told that this would be resolved and that's what I'm hoping for. I'd like to see more communication in that area from 10c.
No, that's not the best solution. Seems like everyone just accepts that the servers are fucked and this is the way it is and always will be? It wasn't always like this. Where's the pressure on 10c to get this situation fixed? I understand if there is an issue of "sabotage"...ok no i don't, but we have been told that this would be resolved and that's what I'm hoping for. I'd like to see more communication in that area from 10c.
This I completely agree with. I like the lottery only because I believe it is a better system than the broken server nightmares we have endured the last few years. But that does not mean it is a perfect solution and that the servers should not be fixed. If there was sabotage, where is the follow up from 10C? It took 5 and a half years to get an answer as to what Big, Bold, and Free was supposed to be. If 5.5 years is the over/under on when we will hear the word sabotage again from them I am betting the over. And that is not good.
No, that's not the best solution. Seems like everyone just accepts that the servers are fucked and this is the way it is and always will be? It wasn't always like this. Where's the pressure on 10c to get this situation fixed? I understand if there is an issue of "sabotage"...ok no i don't, but we have been told that this would be resolved and that's what I'm hoping for. I'd like to see more communication in that area from 10c.
This I completely agree with. I like the lottery only because I believe it is a better system than the broken server nightmares we have endured the last few years. But that does not mean it is a perfect solution and that the servers should not be fixed. If there was sabotage, where is the follow up from 10C? It took 5 and a half years to get an answer as to what Big, Bold, and Free was supposed to be. If 5.5 years is the over/under on when we will hear the word sabotage again from them I am betting the over. And that is not good.
Love the lottery system....the only reason why I was able to get it Night 1 at Alpine with my buddy....it was meant to be. But I don't say that to rub it in because I know there are THOUSANDS others who have been part of the fan club longer than I. Lottery system is great......
Bristow, VA - 5.13.10
East Troy, WI - 9.3.11
East Troy, WI - 9.4.11
Atlanta, GA - 9.22.12
Las Vegas, NV - 10.31.12 (EV)
Las Vegas, NV - 11.1.12 (EV)
Chicago, IL - 7.19.13
Dallas, TX - 11.15.13
Oklahoma City, OK - 11.16.13
Seattle, WA - 12.6.13
Lincoln, NE - 10.9.14
Moline, IL - 10.17.14
St. Paul, MN - 10.19.14
Milwaukee, WI - 10.20.14
New York, NY - 5.1.16
New York, NY - 5.2.16
Boston, MA - 8.5.16
Boston, MA - 8.7.16
Chicago, IL - 8.20.16
[It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.
Well said. All I want is for 10c to take care of this sabatoge business or whatever the hell causes us to have to refresh for 7 hours to get tickets and be more communicative. I don't want the few people who post here nonstop to be the voice for all 10c members.[/quote]
So the best solution is to leave the servers as is and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible to deter scalpers? Just not getting your reasoning. Again, there's plenty of people that REALLY want the tickets that don't have the time to sit in front of a computer for hours. Just b/c they don't have a job that promotes laziness doesn't mean they are less deserving of those tickets. It shouldn't be a battle to get them.
Please read all posts before responding. I've addressed this many times. I guarantee that I am busier than 99.9% of people on this board. Between an extremely demanding career, family, friends, hobbies, etc. I never have any free time. But I make time to achieve something I want, such as getting 10C tickets. I've moved meetings, I've taken vacation, and I've arranged for others to get them for me. I don't make excuses. One of the benefits of being a professional is the ability to come and go as you please, as long as you get your work done. If I take time to get tickets during the work day, I'll just have to stay later. So I have an ideal situation, if you don't, then make some positive changes in your life. That is the point of life, not to drag others down to your level, but to strive to better your own situation to achieve your goals.
Another failed analogy....Did you ever camp out for tickets, get to the window while they were still available and have the person in the booth "refresh" you to the back of the line?
Agreed, that is a failed analogy. Why even bother posting it? It makes no sense. You don't have tickets until you have confirmation... that's just part of the experience. It's just an excuse for people.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Not for a full band tour. Sorry to disagree but the time invested is well worth it sir. IMO
Sorry to disagree,but point me someone with more time invested than me....
50$ membership is 50$ and the time took me to earn them maybe was double and harder than yours,but thats nothing to do with fair tix system..
i said already my opinion,when some of you dont have any other arguments against lottery,(that proove us already was more easy,fast and fair system,)use that im Greek,our economy is bad,that i post alot,and we cant have an opinion cos pj is an American band....
like it or not i think at 10c offices celebrating cos they dont have 5000 bitching mails after the presale...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Not for a full band tour. Sorry to disagree but the time invested is well worth it sir. IMO
Sorry to disagree,but point me someone with more time invested than me....
50$ membership is 50$ and the time took me to earn them maybe was double and harder than yours,but thats nothing to do with fair tix system..
i said already my opinion,when some of you dont have any other arguments against lottery,(that proove us already was more easy,fast and fair system,)use that im Greek,our economy is bad,that i post alot,and we cant have an opinion cos pj is an American band....
like it or not i think at 10c offices celebrating cos they dont have 5000 bitching mails after the presale...
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know that things are tough all over the world. It is not good to see any country struggle. It makes it hard on the people who live there. I do feel bad for the current situation in the world. I don't know what you have to do to earn a living but you have no idea what I do either. I have spent many years to get into the position I am. It was a long and sometimes very hard road. The point being is that we ALL do what we have to do to make sure we can enjoy the band. If someone wants an easier route then I can't fault them but I refuse to agree with them. I just have always taken care of whatever I needed to do to make sure I can get what I want. If some folks don't want to do that then that is their call.
[Sorry to disagree,but point me someone with more time invested than me....
50$ membership is 50$ and the time took me to earn them maybe was double and harder than yours,but thats nothing to do with fair tix system..
i said already my opinion,when some of you dont have any other arguments against lottery,(that proove us already was more easy,fast and fair system,)use that im Greek,our economy is bad,that i post alot,and we cant have an opinion cos pj is an American band....
like it or not i think at 10c offices celebrating cos they dont have 5000 bitching mails after the presale...
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know that things are tough all over the world. It is not good to see any country struggle. It makes it hard on the people who live there. I do feel bad for the current situation in the world. I don't know what you have to do to earn a living but you have no idea what I do either. I have spent many years to get into the position I am. It was a long and sometimes very hard road. The point being is that we ALL do what we have to do to make sure we can enjoy the band. If someone wants an easier route then I can't fault them but I refuse to agree with them. I just have always taken care of whatever I needed to do to make sure I can get what I want. If some folks don't want to do that then that is their call.
if someone wants to be in the venue..will be in...
if i want,ill be in the venue...but,i dont like angry,dissapointed people cos of a wrong ,broken system..i tried with both systems to buy tix..
was so easy to see the difference..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Comments
I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?
This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.
"Hard Earned"... I LIKE the 'Philosophy' of that!...
[ :twisted: ]Yes, but it's "unfair" that everyone pays the same membership fee (yes, there are different levels), but some have the opportunity at better seats. So clearly if we need to go to a ticket lottery because it's more "fair", then we need to go to 100% lottery seating to be fair. [/ :twisted: ]
+1
People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.
8/15/92, 9/28/96, 8/28/98, 8/29/98, 9/18/98, 8/3/00, 8/9/00, 8/10/00, 8/23/00, 8/25/00, 9/1/00, 9/2/00, 4/28/03, 6/18/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 10/1/04, 10/3/05, 6/19/08, 10/27/09, 10/31/09, 5/21/10, 9/3/11, 9/4/11, 10/21/13
More to Come....
since the 10c tickets are "the best in teh house" they would make a killing on the front row seats, and mabye break even on teh last row that htey get seats.
obviously, they would have a small window in which to operate
Lottery requests ahead of Fan Club Pre-Sale:
You choose ONE show. More than one disqualifies you.
Ten/VHC sorts through the requests... just like this past Eddie Vedder lottery.
Note: Winning lottery seats are ordered by seniority. No more rows 1,2,9,10 lottery.
Notifications sent out, PayPal transaction completed. Prior to Fan Club Pre-Sale.
...
Fan Club Pre-Sale:
All you can eat, gluttonous clusterfuck with crashing servers and F5 refreshes. The Fan Club servers primarily serve a message board and a store that sells an occasional onesie or a pair of socks. Don't waste money on expensive hardware/software for the concert ticket anomaly.
If the Fan club can work out deals with TicketMaster, TicketFly, TicketWeb... on certain venues, great.
Note: Seating will be by seniority, AFTER those seated from the previous lottery.
...
If you miss both... there is always the Public On-Sale.
...
That would be 3 chances to score tix. If you did win the lottery with your one pick and are in the 400,000 range of the fan club, you get a great seat. If you are fan member 000,002 and you win the lottery... you still get the first row. Be grateful, not selfish. You stiil will have great seats at the gigs that weren't your one pick.
...
Optional:
Multiple shows. For those tickets bought during the pre-sale (excluding the pre-Pre-Sale lottery), Seniority in asending order (000,001 to 999,999 - front to back) for night one... descending order (999,999 to 000,001) for night two.
...
Completely abolish the Rows 1,2,9,10 lottery to remove all the crap about 'fairness'.
Hail, Hail!!!
I see what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as a likely scenario. How many of us know 25 people we would be confident approaching with a scam like this?
"Hey, wanna help me scalp some tickets? All I need for you to do is sign up for a 10C membership under your own name, using your own email address, and using your own credit card, and then enter a ticket lottery (again, using your own name, email and credit card) and THEN I need you to personally show up with your ID to pick up the tickets. Don't worry, though, I will do the actual scalping. Sound good?"
Wouldn't these friends look at you like you were a) a little nuts and b) kinda pathetic? Do we really think this would be a widespread problem? I just don't see it.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
There have been plenty of times I have sat next to people with scalped fan club tickets and after 30+ shows since 1994, I am aware of how Pearl Jam ticket sales works. My point was that the awful ticket server was a "barrier to entry" for scalpers (and unfortunately many fans) in the PJ concert world. Once we remove that barrier, the "cost", in terms of time and effort, of getting tickets becomes much near zero. That makes casual scalping much, much easier.
As the other poster said, you don't have to know the seat locations to be successful at it. Just using the wording "Fan Club Seating" or "10 Club seating reserved for long time fans, seats TBD" will be enough to profit on a resale. Check out Craigslist in cities for the EV shows as they get closer. You will see exactly what I mean. I am not suggesting that this doesn't happen now or other systems would prevent it, but making it easier for fans by default makes it easier for scalpers and making it easier for scalpers will mean more of them.
Well, I don't believe they have committed to any particular ticketing system yet, so the assumption that there will be a limit to the number of shows one 10c'er can buy for may not be correct, but for the sake of discussion, let's say it is. What makes you think everyone won't pick the same shows? Or are you assuming everyone would apply for fan club tickets to their local shows first? Look back at 2010; there were shows in Hartford, Newark, and two at MSG, including the final night of the tour. If you lived in that area and had to pick, which would you choose? My bet would be that most people will take MSG-II based on the history of shows there, though I recognize a few will try and game the system by picking smaller market venues.
Let's also not forget that the likely thousands of fans of have been turned off by the F5 fiascoes will be back in the ticket buying mix. This is a good thing for the fan base. It's been a great source of frustration here that so many people can't get tickets because they work jobs that don't allow them to sit there and refresh for hours or they just don't want to put up with that shit. BUT, we need to honest about what this means for the ticket buying populace as a whole. Many, many more people will be trying for tickets and you cannot "beat" them through patience and persistence and a good keyboard, so your individual chances for tickets will go down.
That scenario was not particularly practical, but it doesn't have to be 25, that number just made the math easier. Again, the lotto makes the ticketing just like Powerball. Casual scalpers put in $20 for their ticket and click their mouse a half dozen times, and if they win, they win. If they lose, they are out $20 bucks (For the year no matter how many tours come up) and have to try again next round. You don't don't necessarily have to get a whole conspiracy going.
That's one way of doing things, but I don't really agree with that. If I had to pick, I would suggest something along the lines of what was done with the Canada presale last year and use Ticketmaster. Each 10cer gets a unique password, the shows go on sale on a Saturday morning with staggered start times, and sufficient advanced warning of the entire tour schedule is given to fans so they can plan which show(s) to attend. The other change would be that rows 1 &2, and every third row after that would be randomly selected from the fan club. This helps mitigate the way people with numbers from ~200k to ~300k get screwed on seats at every single show while maintaining the seniority that keeps people in the system during non-touring years.
I realize that many people object to TM. I'm not a fan either, but if we disconnect ourselves from PJ history, I think it becomes clear that TM is the way to go. Not only do they have the most robust online system, which the 10c has used successfully as recently as last fall, they own or have exclusive contracts with most of the venues anyway so it's not like PJ can avoid doing business with them.
They already do that. What difference does it make which system is used?
8/15/92, 9/28/96, 8/28/98, 8/29/98, 9/18/98, 8/3/00, 8/9/00, 8/10/00, 8/23/00, 8/25/00, 9/1/00, 9/2/00, 4/28/03, 6/18/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 10/1/04, 10/3/05, 6/19/08, 10/27/09, 10/31/09, 5/21/10, 9/3/11, 9/4/11, 10/21/13
More to Come....
It makes a big difference because it takes no effort to just enter a lottery and hope. In the current system, if the demand is high, then it can take a lot of effort to score a pair of tickets. That is a deterrent to scalpers. Only people who REALLY want to those tickets are going to sit for hours hitting F5 to get them. In the end, that is who should really be getting those tickets, the fans that are willing to sacrifice to get them. I guess most of the kids on this board have never camped out overnight in the freezing cold at a box office to buy tickets. I guess they think that they should have equal chance if they show up 10 minutes before the box office opens.
TY mg79478(et all) for your well thought out contributions. u rawk!
Well said. All I want is for 10c to take care of this sabatoge business or whatever the hell causes us to have to refresh for 7 hours to get tickets and be more communicative. I don't want the few people who post here nonstop to be the voice for all 10c members.
So the best solution is to leave the servers as is and make it as much of a pain in the ass as possible to deter scalpers? Just not getting your reasoning. Again, there's plenty of people that REALLY want the tickets that don't have the time to sit in front of a computer for hours. Just b/c they don't have a job that promotes laziness doesn't mean they are less deserving of those tickets. It shouldn't be a battle to get them.
Another failed analogy....Did you ever camp out for tickets, get to the window while they were still available and have the person in the booth "refresh" you to the back of the line?
Now THIS was well said.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I am happy that I am not the only person who dislikes the lotto idea, but I do not agree with the idea that the people who sit there and hit F5 are the ones who deserve the tickets most. Some people have other responsibilities, like kids or work or court mandated community service, that force them away the computer. They are not lesser fans or less deserving.
I do think part of the appeal of the lotto is that it make it easier to rationalize losing. If you lose the lotto, you think "that sucks, oh well". If you wail on your keyboard for two hours and lose, you get angry and emotionally upset. In this way the lotto definitely appeals to the "no one should feel even a moment of pain" mentality of our modern culture, but it's not a "darn kids" thing, nor is it fair to equate the old days of sleeping outside tower records with what happened with the abysmal ticketing server we have dealt with for years. Though there are plenty of entitled whiners on this boards... just look at any thread that starts "An Open Letter To" or the generally embarrassing reaction to the backpacks selling out. You would think people's puppies were getting stabbed by Tim and Kat based on some of the posts.
No, that's not the best solution. Seems like everyone just accepts that the servers are fucked and this is the way it is and always will be? It wasn't always like this. Where's the pressure on 10c to get this situation fixed? I understand if there is an issue of "sabotage"...ok no i don't, but we have been told that this would be resolved and that's what I'm hoping for. I'd like to see more communication in that area from 10c.
This I completely agree with. I like the lottery only because I believe it is a better system than the broken server nightmares we have endured the last few years. But that does not mean it is a perfect solution and that the servers should not be fixed. If there was sabotage, where is the follow up from 10C? It took 5 and a half years to get an answer as to what Big, Bold, and Free was supposed to be. If 5.5 years is the over/under on when we will hear the word sabotage again from them I am betting the over. And that is not good.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
What was BIG BOLD and FREE?
East Troy, WI - 9.3.11
East Troy, WI - 9.4.11
Atlanta, GA - 9.22.12
Las Vegas, NV - 10.31.12 (EV)
Las Vegas, NV - 11.1.12 (EV)
Chicago, IL - 7.19.13
Dallas, TX - 11.15.13
Oklahoma City, OK - 11.16.13
Seattle, WA - 12.6.13
Lincoln, NE - 10.9.14
Moline, IL - 10.17.14
St. Paul, MN - 10.19.14
Milwaukee, WI - 10.20.14
New York, NY - 5.1.16
New York, NY - 5.2.16
Boston, MA - 8.5.16
Boston, MA - 8.7.16
Chicago, IL - 8.20.16
Would like the option to have a second choice but no big deal.
Well said. All I want is for 10c to take care of this sabatoge business or whatever the hell causes us to have to refresh for 7 hours to get tickets and be more communicative. I don't want the few people who post here nonstop to be the voice for all 10c members.[/quote]
Agreed, that is a failed analogy. Why even bother posting it? It makes no sense. You don't have tickets until you have confirmation... that's just part of the experience. It's just an excuse for people.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Not for a full band tour. Sorry to disagree but the time invested is well worth it sir. IMO
50$ membership is 50$ and the time took me to earn them maybe was double and harder than yours,but thats nothing to do with fair tix system..
i said already my opinion,when some of you dont have any other arguments against lottery,(that proove us already was more easy,fast and fair system,)use that im Greek,our economy is bad,that i post alot,and we cant have an opinion cos pj is an American band....
like it or not i think at 10c offices celebrating cos they dont have 5000 bitching mails after the presale...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know that things are tough all over the world. It is not good to see any country struggle. It makes it hard on the people who live there. I do feel bad for the current situation in the world. I don't know what you have to do to earn a living but you have no idea what I do either. I have spent many years to get into the position I am. It was a long and sometimes very hard road. The point being is that we ALL do what we have to do to make sure we can enjoy the band. If someone wants an easier route then I can't fault them but I refuse to agree with them. I just have always taken care of whatever I needed to do to make sure I can get what I want. If some folks don't want to do that then that is their call.
if i want,ill be in the venue...but,i dont like angry,dissapointed people cos of a wrong ,broken system..i tried with both systems to buy tix..
was so easy to see the difference..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”