so,how cool and easy is lottery system,

78FLH

MG79478 wrote:

So another thought had occured to me. For those who are for the 10C ticket lottery, what are your thoughts about seat distribution? I'm talking all 10C seats, not just the current (1,2,9,10) lottery seats. One must assume you are against seniority based seats... Why shouldn't everyone have equal chance to sit right up front? Wouldn't that be "fair"?

Actuall this was brought up in another thread. Sems that if I live close to a venue i should get tickets before someone who lives in another state reguardless of my seniority. That was the thinking anyway. Even though I have a crappy number I think this would be a bad idea.

78FLH

My fear is that when a WA show is played... I'll get boned. It always been a fear of mine living up here but I hope when there's a full PJ tour they do a regional lottery first, then open it up to everyone. This is how the old system should have been set up as well IMO

This is the quote I was referring to.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=182498&start=105&hilit=lottery

rollings

My first instinct was "what a great idea"

My thoughts now remain the same.

Win, lose, or still have chance at TM. and no sweat lost.

(except for TM selling out instantly and then within 5 minutes of the second show. I've heard about some sweat lost then)

Eraserhead

I scored one pair via the lottery, then bought the ones for other shows via TM or the venues site. Because of the delay in me finding out about extra shows, I still managed to get decent seats through public sale some 18 HOURS after they were on sale.

RE4790

There's been a lot on this topic, I'm not sure I can say anything new, but I don't think the lottery system is necessarily the best way to go for Pearl jam tickets. I concede it's absolutely the most "fair" way of doing things, but that's not how businesses stay afloat nor is it how you maintain your long term customer base. You can look at most any hotel chain, airline, or sports team to see this. The club needs to create a business model that keeps people paying in year after year, even when they are not touring the US (one aspect of this is seniority or "Season Tickets to Pearl Jam"). They need to maintain that fandom haze that keeps selling out the shows, buying up all the posters and shirts, and charging $20/$40 for what amounts to a scratch and win puts this at risk.

Let's not forget the lotto was run under what is basically the lowest bar test. Eddie touring the white parts of the southern half of the US does not generate the same demand as PJ playing in NYC, so the winner to entrant ratio for this run of the ticket lottery was really as good as it's ever going to get, meaning that since the lottery basically nullifies the barriers to entry when purchasing tickets, demand will skyrocket making success harder and even more frustrating. When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

The net of this is that fans need to realize they are trading "fair" for vastly reduced chances at getting tickets and the chance that bad luck will screw you out of ever getting 10c tickets again, not matter how hard you try. (where in the old crappy-server system persistence was usually rewarded.) I am not opposed to the lotto system if that's really what the majority of the fan base wants, I just think people need to realize there are effects beyond just patting themselves on the back for being "fair".

MG79478

RE4790 wrote:

There's been a lot on this topic, I'm not sure I can say anything new, but I don't think the lottery system is necessarily the best way to go for Pearl jam tickets. I concede it's absolutely the most "fair" way of doing things, but that's not how businesses stay afloat nor is it how you maintain your long term customer base. You can look at most any hotel chain, airline, or sports team to see this. The club needs to create a business model that keeps people paying in year after year, even when they are not touring the US (one aspect of this is seniority or "Season Tickets to Pearl Jam"). They need to maintain that fandom haze that keeps selling out the shows, buying up all the posters and shirts, and charging $20/$40 for what amounts to a scratch and win puts this at risk.

Let's not forget the lotto was run under what is basically the lowest bar test. Eddie touring the white parts of the southern half of the US does not generate the same demand as PJ playing in NYC, so the winner to entrant ratio for this run of the ticket lottery was really as good as it's ever going to get, meaning that since the lottery basically nullifies the barriers to entry when purchasing tickets, demand will skyrocket making success harder and even more frustrating. When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

The net of this is that fans need to realize they are trading "fair" for vastly reduced chances at getting tickets and the chance that bad luck will screw you out of ever getting 10c tickets again, not matter how hard you try. (where in the old crappy-server system persistence was usually rewarded.) I am not opposed to the lotto system if that's really what the majority of the fan base wants, I just think people need to realize there are effects beyond just patting themselves on the back for being "fair".

Very well said!

MG79478 wrote:

So another thought had occured to me. For those who are for the 10C ticket lottery, what are your thoughts about seat distribution? I'm talking all 10C seats, not just the current (1,2,9,10) lottery seats. One must assume you are against seniority based seats... Why shouldn't everyone have equal chance to sit right up front? Wouldn't that be "fair"?

I'm still waiting on the lottery folks to weigh in on ticket distribution. They had been so quick to respond, but they've gone oddly silent!

MayDay10

Im all about fairness.

Im batting 1,000 for the F5 situation...
I lost a few years of my life through the PJ20 12 hour fiasco though.

JimmyV

MG79478 wrote:

I'm still waiting on the lottery folks to weigh in on ticket distribution. They had been so quick to respond, but they've gone oddly silent!

Can't speak for anyone else but I would be 100% OK if the seniority system went away. It was a wonderful idea in the beginning and I give the band all the credit in the world for instituting it. But...in recent years it does seem like it has become ugly in a way the band never intended. The entitlement, the arguments, we've all seen it. Personally, I think Eddie agrees and that is why his tours always feature random seating.

William Wallace

RE4790 wrote:

When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).

I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.

choop

re: seniority

I could go either way. Personally, I'd open up arena floor to be GA and have seniority applied to the lower level. The GA shows are usually what make Europe and South America the better shows.

I'm with the band that most people up front are lame.

And for the record, I usually get very good 10C seats.

RE4790

William Wallace wrote:

RE4790 wrote:

When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).

I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.

I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?

This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.

i_lov_it

TunnelThroughDenial wrote:

I think this is clearly a superior system. My seniority is hard earned and important to me so I would also hope that is preserved when it's PJ...

"Hard Earned"... I LIKE the 'Philosophy' of that!...

MG79478

i_lov_it wrote:

TunnelThroughDenial wrote:

I think this is clearly a superior system. My seniority is hard earned and important to me so I would also hope that is preserved when it's PJ...

"Hard Earned"... I LIKE the 'Philosophy' of that!...

[ :twisted: ]Yes, but it's "unfair" that everyone pays the same membership fee (yes, there are different levels), but some have the opportunity at better seats. So clearly if we need to go to a ticket lottery because it's more "fair", then we need to go to 100% lottery seating to be fair. [/ :twisted: ]

78FLH

RE4790 wrote:

William Wallace wrote:

RE4790 wrote:

When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).

I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.

I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?

This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.

+1

RedMosquito22

How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.

People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.

81

RedMosquito22 wrote:

How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.

since the 10c tickets are "the best in teh house" they would make a killing on the front row seats, and mabye break even on teh last row that htey get seats.

obviously, they would have a small window in which to operate

Cosmo

Here's a rough cut:
Lottery requests ahead of Fan Club Pre-Sale:
You choose ONE show. More than one disqualifies you.
Ten/VHC sorts through the requests... just like this past Eddie Vedder lottery.
Note: Winning lottery seats are ordered by seniority. No more rows 1,2,9,10 lottery.
Notifications sent out, PayPal transaction completed. Prior to Fan Club Pre-Sale.
...
Fan Club Pre-Sale:
All you can eat, gluttonous clusterfuck with crashing servers and F5 refreshes. The Fan Club servers primarily serve a message board and a store that sells an occasional onesie or a pair of socks. Don't waste money on expensive hardware/software for the concert ticket anomaly.
If the Fan club can work out deals with TicketMaster, TicketFly, TicketWeb... on certain venues, great.
Note: Seating will be by seniority, AFTER those seated from the previous lottery.
...
If you miss both... there is always the Public On-Sale.
...
That would be 3 chances to score tix. If you did win the lottery with your one pick and are in the 400,000 range of the fan club, you get a great seat. If you are fan member 000,002 and you win the lottery... you still get the first row. Be grateful, not selfish. You stiil will have great seats at the gigs that weren't your one pick.
...
Optional:
Multiple shows. For those tickets bought during the pre-sale (excluding the pre-Pre-Sale lottery), Seniority in asending order (000,001 to 999,999 - front to back) for night one... descending order (999,999 to 000,001) for night two.
...
Completely abolish the Rows 1,2,9,10 lottery to remove all the crap about 'fairness'.

JimmyV

RE4790 wrote:

William Wallace wrote:

RE4790 wrote:

When PJ next plays MSG, the demand in the lottery will include everyone willing to fight the servers, people who take the 'I don't really want to go, but if I win the lotto I will since I don't want to deal with the shitty 10c servers", and the hoards of scalpers who now realize how joining the 10c and entering the lotto makes it easier to ply their trade on the fan club.

I don't see how the lottery gives the scalpers better chances.
Reading your arguments, it should be harder for the scalpers to get tickets with this system, not the other way around.
You said the demand will be higher because more people will try to score tickets with this 'easy' system, that would reduce the chances for scalpers (same supply - higher demand).

I think scalpers will have a harder time getting tickets with the new lottery.
More fans will have the chance to get tickets, since they don't have to be online at one special time (bad for non-office workers).
Plus, scalpers won't have the advantage of their professional equipment (fast internet access, multiple pc's) any more.

I probably should have been more clear, because there is some truth to what you are saying, but let me respond to your second point first. I agree that more 10c'ers will get the chance at tickets and that is something that should happen no matter what system is used. This change can be viewed as the similar to the expected result of the fan club growing, but historically the shitty ticket server has always been a foil to this effecting ticket demand, so removing the server from the equation means the demand will get closer to it's natural state (all fans requesting tickets, why else would you join?) and will increase. Given a fixed number of tickets, that means each individual member will have a proportionally lower chance at tickets as the number of people competing for them increases. This is certainly more "fair", but take a minute to think about what this means for the fans in places like Boston, NYC, Chicago, or Philly. When 20k people were willing to battle the server for 2k ticket pairs for MSG in 2010, those are not good odds. Now imagine what the odds of getting a pair will be if no effort is required to compete for them?

This leads into your first point, the one about scalpers. I agree that each individual scalper will have a far more difficult time with their reduced chance, just like the actual fans will. BUT, what I believe will happen is that like more fans trying for tickets because they don't have to put in the time dealing with the obnoxious server issues, more scalpers will join and try as well. Not necessarily the professional scalpers, they are already there, but the craigslist/ebay casual scalpers. What does it cost a guy in NYC to try? $20 and ten clicks on a web page? Given the payout of ~$1000 per pair, that's a small loss for a big potential payout. Think about.. you have 25 friends sign up at $20 a piece, enter the lotto, and you can be confident that at least one person will win. For that $500 investment you get $500 in revenue (~$300 in profit), assuming secondary market prices are like they were in 2010. (Assuming you can only win for one show, if it's more then the payout and thus the motive is even greater!) Even Mitt Romney didn't get that kinda return on his capital investment. In this down economy I can even see fans crossing the line for high value shows in the NE corridor. Sadly, I don't see how this will be anything other than a scalper bonanza in the large market cities.

I see what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as a likely scenario. How many of us know 25 people we would be confident approaching with a scam like this?

"Hey, wanna help me scalp some tickets? All I need for you to do is sign up for a 10C membership under your own name, using your own email address, and using your own credit card, and then enter a ticket lottery (again, using your own name, email and credit card) and THEN I need you to personally show up with your ID to pick up the tickets. Don't worry, though, I will do the actual scalping. Sound good?"

Wouldn't these friends look at you like you were a) a little nuts and b) kinda pathetic? Do we really think this would be a widespread problem? I just don't see it.

MG79478

Cosmo wrote:

Optional:
Multiple shows. For those tickets bought during the pre-sale (excluding the pre-Pre-Sale lottery), Seniority in asending order (000,001 to 999,999 - front to back) for night one... descending order (999,999 to 000,001) for night two.

I'll say it again, this is a terrible idea. People will be signing their spouse up for a $20 second membership as late as possible to get the highest number possible. Think of the server crash minutes before the membership deadline, and the complaining. Meanwhile the people in the middle get screwed. For years they have been stuck at the back of the 10C Floor seats, waiting for the people in front of them to give someone else a chance to move up front. They also watch the people with worse numbers than them get better seats on the side of the stage. Maybe someone should do something for folks in the middle of the 10C pack.

RedMosquito22 wrote:

People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.

Using the phrase “in fact” doesn’t just let you state your misguided opinion without any supporting evidence. Plenty of common sense reasons were stated as to why a lottery would diminish every individual’s odds of getting tickets. It’s not really up for debate, but if you are going to try, at least attempt to support your point.

RE4790

RedMosquito22 wrote:

How can it be a scalper bonanza when no one knows where they sit and don't have their tickets? I hate to break the news to you, there are already a ton of scalpers in this fan club. Probably more than you could imagine.

There have been plenty of times I have sat next to people with scalped fan club tickets and after 30+ shows since 1994, I am aware of how Pearl Jam ticket sales works. My point was that the awful ticket server was a "barrier to entry" for scalpers (and unfortunately many fans) in the PJ concert world. Once we remove that barrier, the "cost", in terms of time and effort, of getting tickets becomes much near zero. That makes casual scalping much, much easier.

As the other poster said, you don't have to know the seat locations to be successful at it. Just using the wording "Fan Club Seating" or "10 Club seating reserved for long time fans, seats TBD" will be enough to profit on a resale. Check out Craigslist in cities for the EV shows as they get closer. You will see exactly what I mean. I am not suggesting that this doesn't happen now or other systems would prevent it, but making it easier for fans by default makes it easier for scalpers and making it easier for scalpers will mean more of them.

RedMosquito22 wrote:

People make it seem like they wont get tickets when in fact you will have a better chance. Especially when people can't go for every show they want to go to. You will have a set amount of shows you could get in the lottery and then can go for any shows that still have tickets remaining.

Well, I don't believe they have committed to any particular ticketing system yet, so the assumption that there will be a limit to the number of shows one 10c'er can buy for may not be correct, but for the sake of discussion, let's say it is. What makes you think everyone won't pick the same shows? Or are you assuming everyone would apply for fan club tickets to their local shows first? Look back at 2010; there were shows in Hartford, Newark, and two at MSG, including the final night of the tour. If you lived in that area and had to pick, which would you choose? My bet would be that most people will take MSG-II based on the history of shows there, though I recognize a few will try and game the system by picking smaller market venues.

Let's also not forget that the likely thousands of fans of have been turned off by the F5 fiascoes will be back in the ticket buying mix. This is a good thing for the fan base. It's been a great source of frustration here that so many people can't get tickets because they work jobs that don't allow them to sit there and refresh for hours or they just don't want to put up with that shit. BUT, we need to honest about what this means for the ticket buying populace as a whole. Many, many more people will be trying for tickets and you cannot "beat" them through patience and persistence and a good keyboard, so your individual chances for tickets will go down.

JimmyV wrote:

I see what you are saying but it just doesn't strike me as a likely scenario. How many of us know 25 people we would be confident approaching with a scam like this?

That scenario was not particularly practical, but it doesn't have to be 25, that number just made the math easier. Again, the lotto makes the ticketing just like Powerball. Casual scalpers put in $20 for their ticket and click their mouse a half dozen times, and if they win, they win. If they lose, they are out $20 bucks (For the year no matter how many tours come up) and have to try again next round. You don't don't necessarily have to get a whole conspiracy going.

Cosmo wrote:

Here's a rough cut

That's one way of doing things, but I don't really agree with that. If I had to pick, I would suggest something along the lines of what was done with the Canada presale last year and use Ticketmaster. Each 10cer gets a unique password, the shows go on sale on a Saturday morning with staggered start times, and sufficient advanced warning of the entire tour schedule is given to fans so they can plan which show(s) to attend. The other change would be that rows 1 &2, and every third row after that would be randomly selected from the fan club. This helps mitigate the way people with numbers from ~200k to ~300k get screwed on seats at every single show while maintaining the seniority that keeps people in the system during non-touring years.

I realize that many people object to TM. I'm not a fan either, but if we disconnect ourselves from PJ history, I think it becomes clear that TM is the way to go. Not only do they have the most robust online system, which the 10c has used successfully as recently as last fall, they own or have exclusive contracts with most of the venues anyway so it's not like PJ can avoid doing business with them.