Two Of The West Memphis 3 To Be Freed

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  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Blockhead wrote:
    _ wrote:
    I'm curious, Blockhead, since you seem to think anything who disagrees with you is an uninformed, idiot: Are you saying you're smarter than all the independent legal scholars who say they're not guilty, or just that you understand the case better than they do?
    Not really, but the people the support them have failed to post anything other than blogs or Paradise Lost movies.
    Why would you beleive a documentary done by the person who did "the blair witch project" and spreads lies that one of the boys is mentally challenged.
    I have seen it posted in this thread.
    Have you read damiens mental history? I mean I posted almost the entire index so you can just read it. I am the only one referencing the court documents showing how many lies they told and made up alibis.
    I have not said once that I am smarter than a leagal scholars.

    I have read a lot of the links you posted, (and have seen many of them in the past). I do not see them as smoking gun evidence that they are guilty. You might as well drop the Echols mental history stuff. It doesnt implicate him in murder. I feel like thats just as inflammatory as the misconception that Miskelley is considered retarded.

    The Wm3 were pretty fucked up kids before all this happened, but there are fucked up kids all over the world -- that doesnt make them guilty of murder. I honestly dont like to make a conclusion in my mind if they are innocent or guilty because there are a lot of unanswered questions, but I do feel like they were convicted on poor evidence and were not granted a fair trial when this began.

    You also keep posting what you call 'confessions' by Echols -- when they were classmates who claimed to have overheard him saying he killed those boys, those arent confessions. Some recanted, some were considered unreliable.. and we all know how high school is and how the 'normal kids' sometimes make up shit to make the 'weird kids' look bad. isnt posting that stuff as biased and misleading as the Paradise lost documentaries?

    In all honesty, I saw the Paradise lost documentaries, and I kept a neutral stance through the whole thing because I knew they were biased. But They defintely shed some light on how fucked up all the people/parents/investigators were in the case. the case was fucked up --there is no doubt about that, and it was handled poorly from the start.

    How about giving us your interpretation of these facts:
    --Why was there no blood at the scene of the murders??
    --how do you explain the bloody guy who entered Bojangles and the evidence collected (I vaguely recall) was lost??
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Blockhead wrote:
    _ wrote:
    I'm curious, Blockhead, since you seem to think anything who disagrees with you is an uninformed, idiot: Are you saying you're smarter than all the independent legal scholars who say they're not guilty, or just that you understand the case better than they do?
    Not really, but the people the support them have failed to post anything other than blogs or Paradise Lost movies.
    Why would you beleive a documentary done by the person who did "the blair witch project" and spreads lies that one of the boys is mentally challenged.
    I have seen it posted in this thread.
    Have you read damiens mental history? I mean I posted almost the entire index so you can just read it. I am the only one referencing the court documents showing how many lies they told and made up alibis.
    I have not said once that I am smarter than a leagal scholars.

    Yes, I've read Damien's mental history. You're not the only one here who's done research, ya know. Many of us have read the same stuff you have & come to a different conclusion. Just because you can read & post links doesn't mean your analysis of (or even representation of) the facts is sound.

    The point is, you have not posted anything that proves guilt.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    _ wrote:
    Yes, I've read Damien's mental history. You're not the only one here who's done research, ya know. Many of us have read the same stuff you have & come to a different conclusion. Just because you can read & post links doesn't mean your analysis of (or even representation of) the facts is sound.

    The point is, you have not posted anything that proves guilt.

    So what your saying is you need video evidence or they didn't do it.
    Look at the facts. Jesse confessed multiple times even after conviction. Why do you dismiss that?
    He admitted he lied during his first confession to throw the cops off (which I have linked).
    He disclosed evidence of the scene (Evan William wiskey bottle) that he had, which was later found at the scene? Why do you dismiss these? Whats your explanation for them?

    All of their alibis were fabricated/lies and their stories changed (7 times) All revolving around the time of the murder of where they were. Can you explain why all of their alibis were lies and why the had to change their story so many times if they were innocent?

    I don't know why you are dismissing damiens mental history. He had a history of violence, Saying he wanted to sacrifice a child, hospitilizations for violent behavior. Both him and jesse failed poly's, admitting in his own hand writing that he had homicidal urges... Why do you dismiss all of this?
  • facepollution
    facepollution Posts: 6,834
    Blockhead wrote:
    So what your saying is you need video evidence or they didn't do it.
    Look at the facts. Jesse confessed multiple times even after conviction. Why do you dismiss that?
    He admitted he lied during his first confession to throw the cops off (which I have linked).
    He disclosed evidence of the scene (Evan William wiskey bottle) that he had, which was later found at the scene? Why do you dismiss these? Whats your explanation for them?

    False confessions are not uncommon, and happen for a variety of reasons. Mental impairment, ignorance of the law, coercion, duress etc, they can, and have all caused people to confess to crimes they were later cleared of by solid proof like DNA evidence. Whilst I wouldn't want to make any particular judgement on Jessie Misskelley's mental state, even watching the court proceedings from the weekend, it's quite clear that he is (for want of a better word) simple. Now imagine him as a scared and confused 17 year old kid in that situation.

    A whiskey bottle found under a bridge, a bridge that may well be frequented by transients who could easily have dropped a bottle there, never tested for finger prints or dna that could link it to any of the WM3? That's some kind of smoking gun to you? He could have dropped the bottle there way before the crime took place, and that's how he knew it was there.
    Blockhead wrote:
    All of their alibis were fabricated/lies and their stories changed (7 times) All revolving around the time of the murder of where they were. Can you explain why all of their alibis were lies and why the had to change their story so many times if they were innocent?

    Maybe they didn't have alibis for the time and they panicked because they knew if they said they didn't have an alibi that the police would use that as evidence against them? That's a perfectly plausible explanation.

    Blockhead wrote:
    I don't know why you are dismissing damiens mental history. He had a history of violence, Saying he wanted to sacrifice a child, hospitilizations for violent behavior. Both him and jesse failed poly's, admitting in his own hand writing that he had homicidal urges... Why do you dismiss all of this?

    Well firstly, polygraph tests are notoriously unreliable, and as such are generally not considered a scientifically accurate test. Guilty people have passed them, innocent people have failed them, so I don't think there is any way you can argue that this is a significant point, because it just isn't.

    The reason why people dismiss all of this is because it alone is not proof of anything.
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Blockhead wrote:
    So what your saying is you need video evidence or they didn't do it.
    Look at the facts. Jesse confessed multiple times even after conviction. Why do you dismiss that?
    He admitted he lied during his first confession to throw the cops off (which I have linked).
    He disclosed evidence of the scene (Evan William wiskey bottle) that he had, which was later found at the scene? Why do you dismiss these? Whats your explanation for them?

    All of their alibis were fabricated/lies and their stories changed (7 times) All revolving around the time of the murder of where they were. Can you explain why all of their alibis were lies and why the had to change their story so many times if they were innocent?

    I don't know why you are dismissing damiens mental history. He had a history of violence, Saying he wanted to sacrifice a child, hospitilizations for violent behavior. Both him and jesse failed poly's, admitting in his own hand writing that he had homicidal urges... Why do you dismiss all of this?

    Again, I am nuetral on whether or not they commited the crime. I am adamant that they got shafted at their original trial.

    1. YOU are now creating biased false info. That bottle wasnt found at the scene. it was by a bridge, where they frequently walked past. Also, I agree with Facepollution.. a broken bottle that he saw isnt great evidence.

    2. I agree with facepollution again on the alibi thing. I was home playing video games by myself last sunday. If I was accused of murder, i'd have no alibi. Maybe they knew that their reputations would bring heat and being a stupid 16-17 year old, they made shit up. Not uncommon.

    3. Failed polys? So what. see facepollutions post too. Do you have details of this too?.. I honestly havent seen this before.

    4. Mental history could be analyzed if there was pure evidence that they did the murders. Again, there are tons of unbalanced folks out there.. this has NOTHING to do with the actual crime. if you saw the art I created between the age of 12-17, you'd put me in a mental institution too.

    ** HOW COME YOU DISMISSED MY LAST TWO QUESTIONS??
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • BinauralJam
    BinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    By Jennifer L. Mnookin

    August 23, 2011
    Last week, the "West Memphis Three" were released from prison, having spent half their lives — 18 years — behind bars for crimes they almost certainly didn't commit. So what made prosecutors and investigators sure they had the right guys, and why were those beliefs, once established, so hard to reverse?

    The crimes for which the three Memphis men were convicted were brutal. Three 8-year-old Cub Scouts were found dead, hogtied and apparently mutilated. The police decided early on that it was likely the boys had been victims of a satanic cult killing, which led them to consider self-described Wiccan teen Damien Echols, a young man with asymmetric black hair, a pale face and oddball taste in clothes and music. They hauled in an acquaintance of his, a minor named Jessie Misskelley, who had an IQ of 72, and interviewed him for hours without his parents or an attorney present. Finally, he confessed, implicating Echols and another friend, Jason Baldwin.

    The confession confirmed what police expected to hear — that Echols was involved — which may be why they accepted it at face value. But Misskelley's account contradicted the evidence in multiple ways. The time he initially gave for the murders was noon, an hour for which the other teens had an ironclad alibi (they were in school); he said that the other suspects raped the boys, but the medical evidence showed no physical trauma consistent with rape and no semen was found in any body cavity; he said the boys were tied up with a brown rope, when they were actually found tied with their own shoestrings.

    An overarching problem, which this case illustrates perfectly, is that humans have a tendency to see what they expect to see. Much psychological research shows that people are subject to an array of "cognitive biases" that affect their evaluation of evidence, and prosecutors and sworn officers are by no means immune to the phenomenon.

    Investigators and prosecutors, even when they are trying their best to do their jobs, may seek out or take special notice of evidence that confirms their prior beliefs rather than evidence that challenges it. And they are likely to interpret ambiguous evidence in ways that accord with their preconceptions.

    Misskelley promptly recanted his confession. But prosecutors nonetheless pressed the case, and he and the others were ultimately convicted. The prosecutor's case was based largely on character assassination, innuendo and the not-very-credible testimony of the likes of a jailhouse snitch and a witness with a mail-order doctorate. Not a shred of physical evidence linked any of the young men to the crime scene (and post-conviction DNA testing has also failed to find any biological evidence that they were there). Echols received the death penalty, the others life sentences.

    That's how things might have ended if two documentary filmmakers hadn't ventured to Arkansas to make a film about the case. Initially they thought they would be examining a sensational satanic cult killing. But the more research they did, the more they began to doubt that it was a cult killing and that the men who were convicted were the perpetrators. Their film suggested the defendants had been railroaded, and it led to widespread publicity and higher-powered legal representation.

    But nothing happened quickly. The film came out almost 15 years ago. Even now, to win freedom, the three men agreed to Alford pleas, whereby they proclaimed their innocence but formally pleaded guilty nonetheless.

    The case demonstrates the need for criminal justice and evidentiary reforms that would make wrongful convictions less common on the front end. Although releasing some fraction of those wrongfully convicted afterward is all to the good, it would be even better if there were fewer of them in the first place.

    So what produces wrongful convictions? At least three of the often-seen causes were present here: dubious forensic science evidence, false confessions and evidence from unreliable jailhouse informants who often have a strong incentive to tell law enforcers what they want to hear.

    Cognitive bias helps explain why prosecutors can focus on a suspect (or three) and fail to see the warning signs that they are headed down the wrong path. Cognitive bias is not the same thing as racial bias or personal animus. It's the habit of our brains to let the first fact we encounter guide our evaluation of the second and the third. One false start can lead to a miscarriage of justice more quickly than any of us would like to believe.

    In this case, once the cops saw Echols as something of a freak, an odd duck who read about witchcraft, liked Metallica and didn't exactly fit in, the jump from weirdo to likely satanic cult killer was easier than it should have been. Facts that didn't really prove anything were lumped together with suspicions and dubious theories.

    We can't eliminate cognitive biases altogether; they're part of how we think. But we can design procedures to reduce their effects on investigators, prosecutors and even jurors. Police departments and prosecutors can and should implement mechanisms explicitly designed to combat it. For example, in every major case, an investigator or prosecutor with no prior involvement could be asked to review the evidence and assess its strengths and weaknesses. Even better would be if this reviewer weren't expected to provide a "neutral" review but instead were assigned the role of devil's advocate, explicitly asked to find the flaws in the prosecutors' theory. In this case, the filmmakers played an equivalent role, but most defendants aren't so lucky.

    If this high-profile release helps spur thoughtful attention to the problems of combating cognitive bias in police departments and prosecutors' offices, then some good could still come out of a terrible wrong. Bad convictions harm everyone. Not only do they put innocent people behind bars; they also leave actual criminals — in this case a child murderer — on the streets.

    Jennifer L. Mnookin is a professor at UCLA Law School.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Blockhead wrote:
    the people the support them have failed to post anything other than blogs or Paradise Lost movies.

    I could post the entire court documents on here and then still claim what's been claimed already; that there's no direct, solid evidence to convict these three boys. Everything I've posted above is based directly on the court documents.

    There is no evidence, Just rumour and conjecture.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Blockhead wrote:
    All of their alibis were fabricated/lies and their stories changed (7 times) All revolving around the time of the murder of where they were. Can you explain why all of their alibis were lies and why the had to change their story so many times if they were innocent?

    Except it wasn't quite as bad as you're pretending, was it?

    The only discrepancies involved him changing the time from 'one week' here, to 'five days' there, or from 'one hour' here to 'two hours' there.

    If someone asked me how long I was at a certain place last week, or one month ago, I'm pretty sure my recollection would also be inaccurate.


    This isn't evidence of anything.

    You have no evidence.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BinauralJam wrote:
    So what produces wrongful convictions? At least three of the often-seen causes were present here: dubious forensic science evidence, false confessions and evidence from unreliable jailhouse informants who often have a strong incentive to tell law enforcers what they want to hear.

    Cognitive bias helps explain why prosecutors can focus on a suspect (or three) and fail to see the warning signs that they are headed down the wrong path. Cognitive bias is not the same thing as racial bias or personal animus. It's the habit of our brains to let the first fact we encounter guide our evaluation of the second and the third. One false start can lead to a miscarriage of justice more quickly than any of us would like to believe.

    In this case, once the cops saw Echols as something of a freak, an odd duck who read about witchcraft, liked Metallica and didn't exactly fit in, the jump from weirdo to likely satanic cult killer was easier than it should have been. Facts that didn't really prove anything were lumped together with suspicions and dubious theories.

    Right.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Except it wasn't quite as bad as you're pretending, was it?

    The only discrepancies involved him changing the time from 'one week' here, to 'five days' there, or from 'one hour' here to 'two hours' there.

    If someone asked me how long I was at a certain place last week, or one month ago, I'm pretty sure my recollection would also be inaccurate.


    This isn't evidence of anything.

    You have no evidence.
    So...we have more than a few discrepancies...(this is just damien)

    1# Change in time from around 3 to around 6.30.
    2# Change from taking Jason home to just taking Domini home.
    3# Change in when Damien's medicine was collected.
    4# Change in the date when Joe and Pam seperated.
    5# Change in who was seen going into the Sanders residence.
    6# Change in Damien getting home at 6 and staying at home through the night.
    7# Change in Damien being picked up from the laundromat at 6 to 3.45

    Nice try... All of these times revolve around when the murder were comitted.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    How about giving us your interpretation of these facts:
    --Why was there no blood at the scene of the murders??
    --how do you explain the bloody guy who entered Bojangles and the evidence collected (I vaguely recall) was lost??
    No blood, maybe because each kid was found in 2-1/2 ' of water? They weren't found until the next day.

    Bojangles is a dead end. If you read Marty King's testimony it's obvious the guy was just some drunken bum. The blood was his own from an arm injury, and he was so out of it he crapped all over himself and couldn't even use the toilet paper. Any way you look at it, he could not have been involved.

    Took this from the trial transcript:

    CROSS EXAMINATION OF MARTY KING BY MR. FOGLEMAN



    BY MR. FOGLEMAN: I am marking on the map, State's Ex. #2: the interstate system, the railroad track, Balfour Street, and Missouri Street. Here is BoJangles. Behind my business there is a ditch there by the railroad tracks. (TR 3004) There is a small ditch on our side which would be facing Missouri and you'd have to go through it to cross over the railroad tracks. On the other side of the railroad tracks, there could be a big ditch that runs through there.

    The TRAIN TRACKS ran behind the restaurant. So what you have is a drunk hobo bail off a freightcar and fucked up his landing. Not suprising since he was that drunk...
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Blockhead wrote:
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    How about giving us your interpretation of these facts:
    --Why was there no blood at the scene of the murders??
    --how do you explain the bloody guy who entered Bojangles and the evidence collected (I vaguely recall) was lost??
    No blood, maybe because each kid was found in 2-1/2 ' of water? They weren't found until the next day.

    But they werent brutally attacked in the water. Miskelley claimed all the attacks happened in the woods. I'm pretty sure there were a few experts that claimed these types of injuries would have left substantial amounts of blood on the ground in surrounding areas. They found nothing.
    Blockhead wrote:
    Bojangles is a dead end. If you read Marty King's testimony it's obvious the guy was just some drunken bum. The blood was his own from an arm injury, and he was so out of it he crapped all over himself and couldn't even use the toilet paper. Any way you look at it, he could not have been involved.

    Took this from the trial transcript:

    CROSS EXAMINATION OF MARTY KING BY MR. FOGLEMAN

    BY MR. FOGLEMAN: I am marking on the map, State's Ex. #2: the interstate system, the railroad track, Balfour Street, and Missouri Street. Here is BoJangles. Behind my business there is a ditch there by the railroad tracks. (TR 3004) There is a small ditch on our side which would be facing Missouri and you'd have to go through it to cross over the railroad tracks. On the other side of the railroad tracks, there could be a big ditch that runs through there.

    The TRAIN TRACKS ran behind the restaurant. So what you have is a drunk hobo bail off a freightcar and fucked up his landing. Not suprising since he was that drunk...

    He very well might have just been a drunken bum, but I disagree that "anyway you look at it, he couldnt have been involved." By the way, many homeless people often have the same difficult mental instabilities that you keep bringing up about Echols. Another point about the Bojangles incident was that some or all of that evidence was LOST by the authorities! thats convenient! Shittty, shitty jobs by all of the authorities in this case. Another thing that was brought to my attention by the Paradise Lost documentaries was how you see the police trudging around the crime scene.. They didnt treat the scene correctly, and they didnt do their jobs. They tried to get the job done the easy and lazy way.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    Again, I am nuetral on whether or not they commited the crime. I am adamant that they got shafted at their original trial.

    1. YOU are now creating biased false info. That bottle wasnt found at the scene. it was by a bridge, where they frequently walked past. Also, I agree with Facepollution.. a broken bottle that he saw isnt great evidence.

    2. I agree with facepollution again on the alibi thing. I was home playing video games by myself last sunday. If I was accused of murder, i'd have no alibi. Maybe they knew that their reputations would bring heat and being a stupid 16-17 year old, they made shit up. Not uncommon.

    3. Failed polys? So what. see facepollutions post too. Do you have details of this too?.. I honestly havent seen this before.

    4. Mental history could be analyzed if there was pure evidence that they did the murders. Again, there are tons of unbalanced folks out there.. this has NOTHING to do with the actual crime. if you saw the art I created between the age of 12-17, you'd put me in a mental institution too.

    ** HOW COME YOU DISMISSED MY LAST TWO QUESTIONS??
    1. Yes, the broken Evan Williams bottle was found beneath an overpass where Jessie said he THREW it when coming home from the crime scene... Jesse also confessed multiple even after conviction. Whdy do you dismiss that?
    2. I wish you would actually read how many times they changed their stories and alibis and still all were lies. All covering the time the murder took place. IF your innocent, why do you need to make up alibis?
    3. Carson passed his test, Damien didn't...
    4. Do me a favor and read his mental history index 500 I have posted it. He had a HISTORY of violence, was hospitialized for violence, his mental history is not something that should be ignored. It does not make him a murder. His mental history was also generally not used.
    Here is the second half of his mental history index 500. Please highligh in which parts are comparable to you at that age, since your painints would put you in a mental institution.
    186-189 Admission Psychiatric Evaluation 6/2/92 - CHoLR
    -suicidal ideation, "history of extreme physical aggression toward others"
    -"Supposedly, Damien chased a younger child with an ax and attempted to set a house on fire. He denies this behavior."

    190-191 History and Physical - CHoLR 6/2/92

    192-198 Psychological Report 6/8/92 by Lewis Bracy

    199-209 MMPI report 6/92

    210-217 MAPI report 6/92
    "characterized by impulsive hostility, an apprehensive mistrust of others and an edgy defensiveness against criticism. Fearing that others will dominate and possibly brutalize him, he puts forward a socially blunt and aggressive public posture. He fantasizes being all powerful so as to block others from possessing the means to be belittling and harmful. He believes that only alert vigilance and vigorous counter=action can prevent the malice of others. ... The desire to gain power and demean others springs from animosity and a wish to vindicate past grievances. Although frequently unsuccessful in these aims, this teenager believes that past degradations may be undone by provoking fear and intimidation in others."

    218-229 Nursing Assessment 6/1/92

    230-231 Adolescent Developmental History - CHoLR

    232-238 Psychological Assessment - CHoLR 6/2/92
    - "I have no feelings about suicide. I know that I can be reincarnated. I'm not afraid."
    - burning himself with lighters
    - Damien set fire to classroom twice; threatened to put "hexes" on teachers
    - Sniffing air, cutting eyes, possibly responding to hallucinations
    - During arrest, "Damien states that he was able to work his fingers loose, moved over and was able to slip the safety off of the police officer's gun which had been left in the police vehicle. Damien freely admitted that he had plans to shoot the girlfriend's father if he acted in an aggressive manner toward the girl."

    239-240 Family questionnaire - CHoLR - Pam Echols

    241-256 CHoLR forms

    257-275 Treatment plan 6/92
    - Trying to suck blood off peers who have scratched themselves.
    - flat affect, sullen, withdrawn
    - possibley responding to hallucinations

    276-277 Nursing Discharge - CHoLR 6/25/92

    278-288 Physician's Progress Notes (daily notes) 6/92
    "his affect is inappropriate. He has trouble making eye contact. He is quite paranoid. He has been drawing symbols."

    289-309 Physician's Progress Notes (diff handwriting) 6/92
    - believes surveillance cameras behind his mirror and under his desk in his room, cautioned peers that staff are constantly watching them.
    - Flat, monotone, glassy look. Continues to look away, may be responding to voices heard within.
    - drawing witchcraft symbols, making cat purr noise
    - Pam Echols concerned about son "not learning to deal w anger and rages", worried her son responding to outside stimulation. Voiced fear "son may be crazy."
    - extremely flat affect mentioned repeatedly

    310-312 Physician's Orders CHoLR

    313-318 Routine Medication CHoLR

    319-320 Therapeutic Leave notes CHoLR 6/19-21/92

    321-339 CHoLR forms

    =====
    June CHoLR stay done // Sep stay begins
    =====

    340 Inquisitor Inc cover sheet

    341-342 TRIMS Hospital Form 9/10/92
    -Presenting problems: "Homicidal" and "Psychoses" checked off
    -Notes: "??ed him down to the ground, sucked the blood from the arm, rubbed it over his face and body, and say he is a blood sucking vampire."
    - "past 72 hours { says he is going to eat father and that he needs to be locked up or he will hurt someone. Also grabbed another person and tried to suck their blood.
    - Jerry Driver listed as Referral

    343 Info form

    344 AK Dept of Human Services - Medicaid
    -blood sucking & smearing, threatening to eat father

    345 Adjudication Order - 9/14/92
    - violation of probation by threatening the life of his mother and father and refusing to obey their lawful commands

    346-348 Change in Custody Order 9/14/92
    Damien custody transferred to Patricia Ann Liggett (aunt)

    349-356 Admission forms for CHoLR 9/14/92

    357-367 Assessment CHoLR 9/16/92
    "Presently in detention in Jonesboro, picked up for violation of probation, threatened to slit parents' throat and eat them alive. Transferred to Crittenden, one of the kids at the detention hall cut his wrists, Damien grabbed his arm and began to the suck the blood, smeared it over his body and said he's a devil worshipping vampire. Says he's not a vampire but a witch. He is in isolation and suicide watch."
    -Delusions: says he's going to be married in 3 days but doesn't know who he will
    -Violence in family: was staying w Mom & Dad in Oregon; Dad threatened to hit him & he threatened to kill dad
    -Inpatient history - St. Vincent Hospital in Oregon weekend of Aug 12, early Sept
    -sexual history
    -more on threats to slash both parents throats, eat them alive
    -runaway incident: threats to kill officer, threat to kill gf dad
    -"could be a danger to others"

    368-371 Psych Eval 9/15/92

    372-373 History and Physical 9/14/92

    374-75 Psychosocial Assessment Update 9/15/92
    - white witch, devil worshipping
    - threats to kill police officer and girlfriend's father
    - "Damien's behavoirs have become frightening to some of the community members in the Jonesboro area."
    - in Oregon "at several times had threatened to kill his father"; "Damien returned to the home and made advances on the father. The father felt threatened and was concerned for his welfare as well as his wife's and other child in the home. Damien was moved to the detention center in the Oregon area. While in the detention center, Damien witnessed a co-patient slashing his wrist. Damien is reported to have knocked the co-patient to the ground and began to suck the young man's blood."
    -"Damien has made several statements indicating that he has a desire to harm others. Primary targets of his aggression to include authority figures."
    - During this assessment, Damien "readily answered questions concerning his religious beliefs and the fact that he believes that he is a vampire and does worship the devil. It was the social worker's opinion that Damien was not disclosing information for the purposes of schock, that he was simply disclosing what he currently is believing. ... However, his behaviors could best be described as odd and bizzare. Damien smiled at inappropriate times. He cut his eyes back and forth as if he was responding to external stimulation. He seemed to be giggling at something that he was saying or a private joke that was unknown to this social worker."

    377-383 reprint of June assessment

    384-402 medical, nutrition, educational, etc
    -growling noises to scare the other students
    -Objective = "patient will be able to distinguish reality as demonstrated by ability to appropriately respond to environment stimuli"

    403-416 Treatment plan 9/92 various forms
    412: "could be danger to others"

    417-424 Physician's Progress Notes (9/15-9/28)

    425-436 Progress Notes (9/15-9/28)
    - stated he had attempted suicide before and 'was not worried about trying again because I know I can come back."
    - peers complaining of Damien making growling sounds at them
    - continuing to make bizarre sounds around peers; continuous talk of Satanism to peers
    - continues laughing strangely and getting peers to feed into his satanism
    -lots more references to flat affect, withdrawn, daydreaming & staring off

    437 Physicians Orders
    - "Axis I Psychotic Disorder NOS" ["Not Otherwise Specified"]

    440-444 Routine Medication
    - all five pages list "Diagnosis: Psychotic Disorder"

    445-455 various CHoLR 9/92 forms
    453: staff goodbye notes - "Let people like you for you!"

    456-461 Discharge forms 9/28/92
    457 blood sucking
    During stay: "He did bite a male peer; however, this was in a fight type manner."
    457-58 "At the time of discharge, it was felt that Damien's behavior had stabilized to the point to where he no longer needed to remain in an acute care setting. He was not considered a danger to others at the time of his discharge. ... Damien has contracted that he will not attempt to harm anyone after the time of discharge."

    462-463 Inquisitor Inc forms

    464 Craighead County Juvenile Detention Center report by Joyce Cureton
    regarding Damien grabbing boy's arm and sucking blood. "The boys all stated he had been saying he had not taken his medication the night before, and he was about to 'go off on them'."He also told staff he had threatened to kill his father and eat him.

    465 memorandum on home study

    466-470 Intake Summary 8/17/92 Oregon
    467: Jerry Driver's belief that "Damien and several others of his associates are involved in a satanic cult. / Damien and his girlfriend were planning to have a child, so that they could offer it as a sacrifice to Satan. / The authorities in Arkansas suspect that Damien's parents are involved in this satanic belief system."
    469: "Damien denies any involvement in satanic cult or beliefs in Satanism. He expressed considerable displaeaure with Mr. Driver in making such assertions. Damien did acknowledge a suicide pact that he and his girlfriend has made"

    471 Juvenile Compact Form (Oregon 8/13/92)

    472 Referral Communicatin Log 9/14/92
    Jerry Driver gives name of someone at Oregon hospital for consult

    473-483 forms, info releases

    484-85 Notebook pages, drawing and poems

    486-487 personal written statement

    488-493 questionaires from hospital w handwritten responses
    -long term goal: "to own a new age shop"
    -people i'd like to meet: Anton Levay, Stephen King

    494-498 drawings, poems, stories

    499-500 CHoLR questionaire 6/92

    501-507 info requests, release forms
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,232
    blockhead i think you are swimming against the current here. most of us have read what you have posted and it just does not make it completely clear that these three committed the murders. there are too many inconsistencies and if i were a juror i would not be completely convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

    no offense intended man, but sometimes i think that you enjoy the conflict created in these threads.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • SPEEDY MCCREADY
    SPEEDY MCCREADY Posts: 26,902
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    blockhead i think you are swimming against the current here. most of us have read what you have posted and it just does not make it completely clear that these three committed the murders. there are too many inconsistencies and if i were a juror i would not be completely convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

    no offense intended man, but sometimes i think that you enjoy the conflict created in these threads.
    Most of you have read Damiens medical records?
    Most of you have read the court transcripts???


    heheheheheheheheheheheh

    99% of the people here have no idea those medical records even existed...
    99% of the people here have NEVER read Damiens medical records...
    99% of the people here have NEVER read the court transcripts.....
    Because these little tidbits of info were never brought up in those made for TV documentaries.

    As I have been saying for years...
    Damien Echols is a piece of crap...
    Who was convicted of MURDER....
    And just last week walked into a courtroom and pled GUILTY to 1st degree murder....
    Take me piece by piece.....
    Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    But they werent brutally attacked in the water. Miskelley claimed all the attacks happened in the woods. I'm pretty sure there were a few experts that claimed these types of injuries would have left substantial amounts of blood on the ground in surrounding areas. They found nothing.


    He very well might have just been a drunken bum, but I disagree that "anyway you look at it, he couldnt have been involved." By the way, many homeless people often have the same difficult mental instabilities that you keep bringing up about Echols. Another point about the Bojangles incident was that some or all of that evidence was LOST by the authorities! thats convenient! Shittty, shitty jobs by all of the authorities in this case. Another thing that was brought to my attention by the Paradise Lost documentaries was how you see the police trudging around the crime scene.. They didnt treat the scene correctly, and they didnt do their jobs. They tried to get the job done the easy and lazy way.
    Please list evidence that was lost...
    Please quit citing the PL 1 & 2 movies as proof of anything.
    Please read damiens mental history before comparing it to yours or some hobos.
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    You can pile all that mental history stuff a mile high if you want...Yes, it would make me more inclined to believe that this justified he was a murderer if there was better evidence that he murdered the 3 boys.

    Yes, Miskelleys confessions are weird - I dont dismiss it. I just try to remain neutral because his first confessoin was completely false and it was handled by some of the same idiot cops who dont know how to handle a crime scene. Wasnt there a problem with them questioning him too -- without the parents present/consent?? Several other things he said didnt match up with the timeline of how things happened in the actual murders. He was weird, and a little slow and kinda stupid. I dont know what to think of his confessions, But I do know they werent allowed in the Echols trial -- and the evidence produced for the Echols trial didnt warrant a guilty verdict with the death penalty being the punishment .
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    You can pile all that mental history stuff a mile high if you want...Yes, it would make me more inclined to believe that this justified he was a murderer if there was better evidence that he murdered the 3 boys.

    Yes, Miskelleys confessions are weird - I dont dismiss it. I just try to remain neutral because his first confessoin was completely false and it was handled by some of the same idiot cops who dont know how to handle a crime scene. Wasnt there a problem with them questioning him too -- without the parents present/consent?? Several other things he said didnt match up with the timeline of how things happened in the actual murders. He was weird, and a little slow and kinda stupid. I dont know what to think of his confessions, But I do know they werent allowed in the Echols trial -- and the evidence produced for the Echols trial didnt warrant a guilty verdict with the death penalty being the punishment .
    Its clear you haven't ready anything I have posted. so please quit addressing me.
    I have posted about the lie the misskelly was "mentally challanged" and how they had him appear dumber taking his IQ. His score plunged 13 points before trial. Please look at my post (with court supported docuemnts) on page 6 or 7. He did have his fathers consent for his confession. I don't know where you get your info but I have posted the site with documents please take a look at them if you actually care. Quit asking questions or making comments that are in biased documentaries.
    Where was damien during the time of the murder since you have all the answers.
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    Blockhead wrote:
    Please quit citing the PL 1 & 2 movies as proof of anything.

    Umm, No, absolutley not. I'll quit citing these when you leave out things that have no bearing on the original trials.
    Its not my ONLY source of knowledge to the case btw. You forget that I told you I watched the documentaries with the knowledge that it was biased, but the VIDEO taken of the cops doesnt lie...there is video of the actual crime scene in Paradise Lost. There is video of the cops acting like idiots all over the scene, potentially destroying evidence. This is widely known fact.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:
    Most of you have read the court transcripts???


    heheheheheheheheheheheh

    99% of the people here have no idea those medical records even existed...
    99% of the people here have NEVER read Damiens medical records...
    99% of the people here have NEVER read the court transcripts.....
    Because these little tidbits of info were never brought up in those made for TV documentaries.

    As I have been saying for years...
    Damien Echols is a piece of crap...
    Who was convicted of MURDER....
    And just last week walked into a courtroom and pled GUILTY to 1st degree murder....
    Its obvious that no one in hear has read them (as no one has referenced them for support) and continue not to read them after being posted and summarized. Please are still talking about misskelly being mentally retarded and I posted the lie (with court documents) on page 6 or 7.

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