I also already posted that in Jesse's first confession he admitted to lying to police to get them "off track"
That is also supported by testimony. So that does explain why his 1st confession contained so many glaring errors.
Do you not understand how you are arguing against your own position with this?? Let's follow your logic here: You're saying Jessie's confession must be true because (1) He's actually reasonably intelligent, despite claims to the contrary, and (2) he said he lied to the police about minor details in his confession to throw them off track in their investigation.
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever to try to throw the police off track in their investigation when you are fully confessing to a crime!
Again why don't you actually read his confessions... All of them.
He has multiple confessions, even after conviction.
Its not about convincing anyone, its about getting the truth, something that Eddie Vedder can't do concerning this case.
Byrnzine, you seem to be the only one who has conveyed knowledge on this case and If you believe they are innocent, I support your educated opinion.
I came here to post court documents ( I rarely see any posted on this case) and let people educate themselves and at least come to their own conclusion. Thats all.
I am sorry I called you an Idiot. I just want the info out there...
Apology accepted.
Smarter people than me have studied this case in far greater detail than I have and have come to the conclusion that these 3 boys are/were innocent.
I hope one day the truth about it will be made clear. But at the moment the definitive 'truth' of this case eludes both the supporters of the WM3 and those like yourself who think they're guilty. As it stands, there is no concrete proof that links the WM3 to the murders, and there are also a lot of unanswered questions and problems surrounding the investigation.
I also already posted that in Jesse's first confession he admitted to lying to police to get them "off track"
That is also supported by testimony. So that does explain why his 1st confession contained so many glaring errors.
Do you not understand how you are arguing against your own position with this?? Let's follow your logic here: You're saying Jessie's confession must be true because (1) He's actually reasonably intelligent, despite claims to the contrary, and (2) he said he lied to the police about minor details in his confession to throw them off track in their investigation.
You're conveniently ignoring the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever to try to throw the police off track in their investigation when you are fully confessing to a crime!
Again why don't you actually read his confessions... All of them.
He has multiple confessions, even after conviction.
Again - I've read the confessions. Repeatedly telling me to read something that I then repeatedly tell you I've read is not productive.
"False confessions and incriminating statements lead to wrongful convictions in approximately 25 percent of cases. In 35 percent of false confession or admission cases, the defendant was 18 years old or younger and/or developmentally disabled."
As for Eddie Vedder, does anyone here really think he'd be so dumb as to support the WM3 before having studied this case in minute detail?
Like most people, he may well have first gotten interested in it after seeing 'Paradise Lost' but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made public his support for these three boys until he was 100% convinced of their innocence.
And I'm pretty sure that he's more 'educated' on this issue than anyone on this board, after having not only studied the case, but having spent time with many of those involved, including the parents of those murdered children.
Or we could take Blockhead's view, and just dismiss Vedder as an asshole who was simply looking to jump on a worthy cause in order to look cool, or something.
As for Eddie Vedder, does anyone here really think he'd be so dumb as to support the WM3 before having studied this case in minute detail?
Like most people, he may well have first gotten interested in it after seeing 'Paradise Lost' but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made public his support for these three boys until he was 100% convinced of their innocence.
And I'm pretty sure that he's more 'educated' on this issue than anyone on this board, after having not only studied the case, but having spent time with many of those involved, including the parents of those murdered children.
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Another habit says it's in love with you
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Also, he was risking everything by putting his support behind these boys. If he'd turned out to be wrong it would have damaged his credibility irreparably. It would also have impacted on every other cause he supports and many people would never take his word seriously again. Basically, his whole career would have been fucked. I can't imagine that someone as smart as Vedder would put his whole career on the line unless he was 100% sure of their innocence.
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Also, he was risking everything by putting his support behind these boys. If he'd turned out to be wrong it would have damaged his credibility irreparably. It would also have impacted on every other cause he supports and many people would never take his word seriously again. Basically, his whole career would have been fucked. I can't imagine that someone as smart as Vedder would put his whole career on the line unless he was 100% sure of their innocence.
And I for one trust his judgement.
What are you talking about?? He only supported three child killers because that benefits his career and his "agenda"!!
To quote the Arkansas Supreme Court on the matter of Jessie's IQ, "evidence indicated that appellant's intelligence quotient was 72 and that he read at a third-grade level."
How many lies are you going to post... Please cite the case files as those are about the only things in this thread that are not biased. No parent? 8 hours? have you even read what I have posted in this thread. I have already debunked Jessies IQ, I show by court documents that his parents consented to the confession, and I showed there was not such 12 hour (now your downgrading) to 8 hour confession.
Get your fucking facts straight and read the case files. You look like a idiot...
His parents may have consented to the confession, but they weren't present. And your spouting of more vitriol doesn't explain why his 'confession' contained so many glaring errors. But then you only see what you want to see when posting your angry, bitter little rants.
Oh, and it's 'You look like an idiot', not 'You look like a idiot'.
To quote the Arkansas Supreme Court on the matter of who signed the consent/waiver for Jessie's confession:
"At the time the appellant signed his [own] waiver, Ark. Code Ann. § 9-27-317(f) (Repl. 1993) provided that a juvenile's waiver form must be signed by a parent, guardian, or custodian"
They went on to say that this requirement was retroactively lifted when they decided to try him as an adult - but the fact still remains that his parents DID NOT consent to waive his rights, as was required at the time of his confession. The authorization for the police to conduct a polygraph is a totally separate document & is not what's at issue here.
Or maybe it has something to do with the following?:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... eedom.html
'...Jessie, a high-school dropout, had been in special ed throughout school. He’d come to the police station voluntarily, and police had questioned him—with no parent or lawyer present—for close to eight hours. Only two brief sections of his account, totaling less than one hour, were recorded—and I found even those parts troubling.
Jessie stated he’d met Damien and Jason in the woods where the children’s bodies were later found. He said he’d watched as Damien and Jason beat and stabbed the boys “and started screwing them and stuff.” Ultimately, Jessie said, he had helped in the murders by holding one of the victims.
Police knew the boys were last seen alive after 5 p.m. Yet in the recordings, Jessie started out saying the killings took place “early in the morning.” Police knew the boys were in school all day. Even on the taped sections, Jessie gradually changed the time to “around noon,” then “five or six,” finally settling for: “It was starting to get dark.” The medical examiner found no evidence that any had been raped.
The local prosecutor, John Fogleman, had based three charges of capital murder on Jessie’s vague and contradictory statement. A day after making his statement, Jessie recanted it.
How many lies are you going to post... Please cite the case files as those are about the only things in this thread that are not biased. No parent? 8 hours? have you even read what I have posted in this thread. I have already debunked Jessies IQ, I show by court documents that his parents consented to the confession, and I showed there was not such 12 hour (now your downgrading) to 8 hour confession.
Get your fucking facts straight and read the case files. You look like a idiot...
Re: presence of parents: First of all, the article - which was written by one of the most recognized experts on this case - says no parent or lawyer was PRESENT during the interrogation and you called her a liar & called Byrnzie an idiot for posted this so-called lie, but then tried to refute it by saying his parent CONSENTED. Consenting to someone being interrogated & actually being present for the interrogation are entirely different things. (Are you big enough to admit that the article was telling the truth when it said there was no parent present?) Regardless, you're thinking of thewrong consent & the Supreme Court of Arkansas has clearly stated that there was no parental presence OR legitimate parental consent for his confession.
Re: length of interrogation: You pulled the same shit here. The article said he was QUESTIONED for 8 hours & you cried bullshit - then posted a document that clearly shows that, while he may have first admitted guilt 4 hours into the interrogation, the interrogation itself DID last at least 8 hours. Again, you owe Ms. Leveritt & Byrnzie an apology - and one to the rest if us, too, for misrepresenting the facts again.
Re: Jessie's IQ: Unless you are now calling the state Supreme Court liars and saying that they, too, have not read the court documents, you haven't debunked shit. THEY clearly stated that his IQ was 72. Also, AGAIN, you're suggesting that the author of the article is lying about Jessie's mental capacity - but she only mentioned that he was in special ed. Saying he had an IQ above 72 in no way debunks her assertion that he was in special ed.
Do you think you could stop screaming "LIAR!!" at everyone with whom you disagree? Because, the fact is, they're not lying. You're lying by saying they're lyng. If you want anyone to believe that you know your facts, how about acknowledging these facts?
Re: presence of parents: First of all, the article - which was written by one of the most recognized experts on this case - says no parent or lawyer was PRESENT during the interrogation and you called her a liar & called Byrnzie an idiot for posted this so-called lie, but then tried to refute it by saying his parent CONSENTED. Consenting to someone being interrogated & actually being present for the interrogation are entirely different things. (Are you big enough to admit that the article was telling the truth when it said there was no parent present?) Regardless, you're thinking of thewrong consent & the Supreme Court of Arkansas has clearly stated that there was no parental presence OR legitimate parental consent for his confession.
Re: length of interrogation: You pulled the same shit here. The article said he was QUESTIONED for 8 hours & you cried bullshit - then posted a document that clearly shows that, while he may have first admitted guilt 4 hours into the interrogation, the interrogation itself DID last at least 8 hours. Again, you owe Ms. Leveritt & Byrnzie an apology - and one to the rest if us, too, for misrepresenting the facts again.
Re: Jessie's IQ: Unless you are now calling the state Supreme Court liars and saying that they, too, have not read the court documents, you haven't debunked shit. THEY clearly stated that his IQ was 72. Also, AGAIN, you're suggesting that the author of the article is lying about Jessie's mental capacity - but she only mentioned that he was in special ed. Saying he had an IQ above 72 in no way debunks her assertion that he was in special ed.
Do you think you could stop screaming "LIAR!!" at everyone with whom you disagree? Because, the fact is, they're not lying. You're lying by saying they're lyng. If you want anyone to believe that you know your facts, how about acknowledging these facts?
Jesse also confessed with two of his defense lawyers present. Why do they always leave that out. Why leave out his confession after conviction?
Length of interrogation http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmtl.html
Jesses IQ test presented in court was false and he was found to be malingering on his IQ test administered by a doctor on probation for breaking medical rules/laws, the Judge ordered that the doctor could only testify on his opinion not on expertise. Why do people continue to post that his IQ was 72 when it was found to be false?
Yes they are lying.
As for Eddie Vedder, does anyone here really think he'd be so dumb as to support the WM3 before having studied this case in minute detail?
Like most people, he may well have first gotten interested in it after seeing 'Paradise Lost' but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made public his support for these three boys until he was 100% convinced of their innocence.
And I'm pretty sure that he's more 'educated' on this issue than anyone on this board, after having not only studied the case, but having spent time with many of those involved, including the parents of those murdered children.
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Then why did he write in his WM3 summary (sniper/playbill June 09) that Jesse was interrogated for 12 hours.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Also, he was risking everything by putting his support behind these boys. If he'd turned out to be wrong it would have damaged his credibility irreparably. It would also have impacted on every other cause he supports and many people would never take his word seriously again. Basically, his whole career would have been fucked. I can't imagine that someone as smart as Vedder would put his whole career on the line unless he was 100% sure of their innocence.
And I for one trust his judgement.
Then why did he write in his WM3 summary (sniper/playbill June 09) that Jesse was interrogated for 12 hours.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
"someone as smart as Vedder" Were not talking about Greg Graffin here... Were talking about a highschool drop-out thats a lead singer in a band. Eddie may be extremely smart, I don't know, unless you know him personally I don't know how you can make such a statement.
Re: presence of parents: First of all, the article - which was written by one of the most recognized experts on this case - says no parent or lawyer was PRESENT during the interrogation and you called her a liar & called Byrnzie an idiot for posted this so-called lie, but then tried to refute it by saying his parent CONSENTED. Consenting to someone being interrogated & actually being present for the interrogation are entirely different things. (Are you big enough to admit that the article was telling the truth when it said there was no parent present?) Regardless, you're thinking of thewrong consent & the Supreme Court of Arkansas has clearly stated that there was no parental presence OR legitimate parental consent for his confession.
Re: length of interrogation: You pulled the same shit here. The article said he was QUESTIONED for 8 hours & you cried bullshit - then posted a document that clearly shows that, while he may have first admitted guilt 4 hours into the interrogation, the interrogation itself DID last at least 8 hours. Again, you owe Ms. Leveritt & Byrnzie an apology - and one to the rest if us, too, for misrepresenting the facts again.
Re: Jessie's IQ: Unless you are now calling the state Supreme Court liars and saying that they, too, have not read the court documents, you haven't debunked shit. THEY clearly stated that his IQ was 72. Also, AGAIN, you're suggesting that the author of the article is lying about Jessie's mental capacity - but she only mentioned that he was in special ed. Saying he had an IQ above 72 in no way debunks her assertion that he was in special ed.
Do you think you could stop screaming "LIAR!!" at everyone with whom you disagree? Because, the fact is, they're not lying. You're lying by saying they're lyng. If you want anyone to believe that you know your facts, how about acknowledging these facts?
Jesse also confessed with two of his defense lawyers present. Why do they always leave that out. Why leave out his confession after conviction?
My post was in direct response to the post I was quoting, disputing your assertion that these three points were lies. I didn't leave anything out. That was not a topic of conversation in the post to which I was responding.
Funny how you just point somewhere else instead of admitting to the points I just made. If you just run in another direction when presented with facts - with :shock: SOURCES FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS :shock: - how exactly are we supposed to have a legitimate conversation about this case? I agree with Byrnzie : I don't think you have any real interest in this case at all.
Length of interrogation http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmtl.html
Jesses IQ test presented in court was false and he was found to be malingering on his IQ test administered by a doctor on probation for breaking medical rules/laws, the Judge ordered that the doctor could only testify on his opinion not on expertise. Why do people continue to post that his IQ was 72 when it was found to be false? Yes they are lying.
Oh my good God, man - now I've heard EVERYTHING! YOU ARE SAYING THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS (which actually agreed with you that they are guilty) IS LYING AND HAS LESS KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE THAN YOU DO??!! Next thing you know, if God himself claimed to have knowledge of the case that discredited any of your claims, you'd say that He was full of shit too! Full of yourself much there, pal?
ETA: I can't help but notice that you are now saying that official case documents - which you claim provide your argument with legitimacy - are not legitimate sources of information. That means your entire argument falls.
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Also, he was risking everything by putting his support behind these boys. If he'd turned out to be wrong it would have damaged his credibility irreparably. It would also have impacted on every other cause he supports and many people would never take his word seriously again. Basically, his whole career would have been fucked. I can't imagine that someone as smart as Vedder would put his whole career on the line unless he was 100% sure of their innocence.
And I for one trust his judgement.
Then why did he write in his WM3 summary (sniper/playbill June 09) that Jesse was interrogated for 12 hours.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
"someone as smart as Vedder" Were not talking about Greg Graffin here... Were talking about a highschool drop-out thats a lead singer in a band. Eddie may be extremely smart, I don't know, unless you know him personally I don't know how you can make such a statement.
I don't know Richard Feynman personally, but I can say he's smart. See how that works?
"I SAY BLAH, BLAH, & BLAH - AND I'M RIGHT BECAUSE THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND THEY AGREE WITH ME!!!!!"
"But the official case documents don't agree with you."
"THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION!!!"
I wish I knew how to draw comics. You just can't make this shit up.
"I SAY BLAH, BLAH, & BLAH - AND I'M RIGHT BECAUSE THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND THEY AGREE WITH ME!!!!!"
"But the official case documents don't agree with you."
"THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION!!!"
I wish I knew how to draw comics. You just can't make this shit up.
3 men walked in to a courtroom last week...
PLED GUILTY TO 1st DEGREE MURDER!!!!!
Walked out of the courtroom free men....
You are right...
You cant make this shit up.....
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
My post was in direct response to the post I was quoting, disputing your assertion that these three points were lies. I didn't leave anything out. That was not a topic of conversation in the post to which I was responding.
Funny how you just point somewhere else instead of admitting to the points I just made. If you just run in another direction when presented with facts - with :shock: SOURCES FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS :shock: - how exactly are we supposed to have a legitimate conversation about this case? I agree with Byrnzie : I don't think you have any real interest in this case at all.
Length of interrogation http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmtl.html
Jesses IQ test presented in court was false and he was found to be malingering on his IQ test administered by a doctor on probation for breaking medical rules/laws, the Judge ordered that the doctor could only testify on his opinion not on expertise. Why do people continue to post that his IQ was 72 when it was found to be false? Yes they are lying.
Oh my good God, man - now I've heard EVERYTHING! YOU ARE SAYING THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS (which actually agreed with you that they are guilty) IS LYING AND HAS LESS KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE THAN YOU DO??!! Next thing you know, if God himself claimed to have knowledge of the case that discredited any of your claims, you'd say that He was full of shit too! Full of yourself much there, pal?
ETA: I can't help but notice that you are now saying that official case documents - which you claim provide your argument with legitimacy - are not legitimate sources of information. That means your entire argument falls.
I don't think you can comprehend what I am talking about when I am talking about the IQ.
When I said they were lying I was talking about that biased article that was posted.
Then why did he write in his WM3 summary (sniper/playbill June 09) that Jesse was interrogated for 12 hours.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
"someone as smart as Vedder" Were not talking about Greg Graffin here... Were talking about a highschool drop-out thats a lead singer in a band. Eddie may be extremely smart, I don't know, unless you know him personally I don't know how you can make such a statement.
I don't know Richard Feynman personally, but I can say he's smart. See how that works?
Yes but he is acomplished in his education/field. Eddie has done nothing but sing for a band...
There have been accusations that Terry molested his daughter and Stevie, and that this occurred over a period of a few years. It's also been claimed that he forced Stevie to watch him masturbate and make him perform sex acts on his sister Amanda. It was also alleged that he made the children watch pornography. In addition to this, before and after the murders, Amanda continued to claim that Terry sexually assaulted her frequently. Apparently, a doctor confirmed these allegations of forced penetration.
And along with sexual abuse, beatings were supposedly a regular occurrence as well.
Also, a woman named Mildred French claimed that Hobbs attempted to rape her while Hobbs was still with his first wife.
And, in 2009 multiple DNA tests failed to link Damien Echols or the other two convicted boys to the crime scene. And under the prosecution theory of how the crime was committed, it would be nearly impossible for at least one perpetrator's DNA not to match the crime scene evidence.
The filing includes dozens of expert reports, witness affidavits, scientific reports and other submissions. The highlights include:
* DNA test results that fail to link Echols or the other defendants to the crime scene; in light of the prosecution claim that Echols sodomized the victims, the lack of his DNA at the crime scene is exculpatory itself. * DNA test results showing that a hair found in the ligature of one of the victims matches Terry Hobbs, the step-father of another one of the victims. * DNA test results showing foreign DNA - from someone other than Echols or the other men who were convicted - on the penises of two of the victims * DNA test results matching a hair at the crime scene to a man who was with Terry Hobbs on the day of the crimes. This places Hobbs at the scene of the crime, since it refutes any theory that the Hobbs hair (found in the ligature of one of the victims) was there before the crime * Scientific analysis from some of the nations leading forensic experts, stating that wounds on the victims bodies were caused by animals at the crime scene - not by knives used by the perpetrators, as the prosecution claimed. These wounds were the centerpiece of the prosecution's case, and evidence was presented that a knife recovered from a lake near one defendant's home caused the wounds. The conclusive expert analysis showing that animals caused the wounds after the victims died also completely undercuts the testimony of a jailhouse informant (who testified about Echols using a knife to cause the wounds) and a discredited "expert" who testified that the knife wounds were part of a Satanic ritual. * Sworn affidavits outlining new evidence uncovered by Pam Hobbs (the ex-wife of Terry Hobbs) who found a knife in Terry Hobbs' drawer that her son (one of the victims) had carried with him at all times. After her son was killed, the knife was not among his personal effects that police gave to the Hobbs families, and Pam Hobbs always assumed that her son's murderer had taken it during the crime. * New information implicating Terry Hobbs - including his own statements to police in recent interviews where he acknowledged that several of his relatives suspect him in the crime. The filing also includes a chronology of Hobbs' activities on the night of the crimes, when he washed his clothes and sheets at odd hours for no reason other than to hide evidence from the crimes. * A sworn affidavit that refutes hearsay evidence from Echols' trial. The mother of one of two girls who testified that they overheard Echols admit to the crime at a softball game now say that Echols' statement was not serious and that neither she nor her daughter believes he committed the crime.
Also, Amanda - Stevie Hobbs sister - has claimed that David Jacoby (who testified that Terry Hobbs was with him at the time of the murders) molested her.
Also:
'...Pam Hobbs said that in 2002, at a point when she and Terry Hobbs were separating, she sent a package containing “14 or 15 knives” owned by her husband to one of the defense lawyers.
Pam Hobbs said that she had done so after discovering among the knives “a little pocket knife” that her father had given to Stevie.
She said Stevie “carried it around with him all the time, because it was like part of his granddaddy. He would have had it May the fifth. He carried it with him from the day my daddy gave it to him until the day he was murdered.”
Asked why, five years ago, she had given the knives to a lawyer for the defense, she said it was because she “didn’t trust the prosecution ... because of the evidence that was not presented at the trials.”
Terry Hobbs dismissed the knives as having had “nothing to do with anything.”
“I’d bought some, and found some and Pam bought me some. I just threw them in a drawer, and that’s where they’d been for years.” He added, “Them knives were stolen out of my home and I’m fixing to try to get them back.”
Asked whether one of the knives was a pocket knife given to Stevie by his grandfather, Terry Hobbs responded: “I don’t know. It could have been. And it could have been it was in the drawer because we didn’t want him to have it. I didn’t want a kid of mine to go around with a pocket knife — not a kid who was 8 years old. Would you?”
...Another element of her anger, Pam Hobbs said, relates to her brother, whom Terry Hobbs shot in the abdomen during an altercation 10 years ago. That brother died last year.
Terry Hobbs dismisses the episode. “The truth is,” he said, “when a man is trying to kill you, you have a right under the United States Constitution to defend and protect yourself.”
Nevertheless, he acknowledged that he was charged with aggravated assault, fined and placed on probation.
When asked if she now considers her ex-husband a suspect in the murders, Pam Hobbs answered, “Yeah. And I don’t know if it’s because of the anger I still hold toward him for not telling me when Stevie was missing, and from some of his other actions or not. But I haven’t been able to shake that feeling.”
For years, for those following this case, Terry Wayne Hobbs was a mystery, "the other stepfather," in the deep shadow of the oversized personality of Mark Byers. The stepfather of victim Stevie Branch, he was not interviewed by the police at the time of the crimes and was not called to testify at the trials. His whereabouts on the evening of the fifth could only be gleaned from brief notes from other witnesses. The Hobbs house was not searched for fiber matches. The Hobbs neighbors were not questioned during the door to door surveys.
Terry Hobbs was thrust to the center of the case after the results of the DNA examinations came back from the hairs left behind at the crime scene. While none of these hairs could have come from those convicted for the crimes, it was determined that Terry Hobbs could be a source of one hair that was found with a ligature of Michael Moore. Furthermore, a friend of Terry Hobbs, David Jacoby, was the possible source of another hair at the crime scene.
Then the revelations snowballed. Terry Hobbs' ex-wife, Pamela and her family came forward saying they had long suspected him of being the murderer. Their suspicions began shortly after the crime and continued through the trials and after the convictions. According to Terry Hobbs, even some of his clients at his work had accused him of the crimes. For Terry Hobbs, the accusations would pile higher and higher.
Terry Hobbs, background
Terry Hobbs was born in 1958 in Northern Arkansas, one of four children, son of Edith Raylean McLeod Hobbs and Joe Dean Hobbs, Sr. Hobbs, Sr. learned his trade as a butcher while in the military and went on to open thirty restaurants. He was also a minister in the Apostolic Pentecost Church, a fundamentalist group. Terry Hobbs claimed to have seen evil spirits cast out. His upbringing was strict, the family faith did not allow a television at home or participation in sports. Along with his brothers, he was expected to work in the slaughterhouse, butchering pigs and cattle. He completed the 10th grade at Cave City High.
Terry first married Angela Hancock and had one son, Bryan Hobbs. He married Pamela Hicks Branch in 1986 at the time that Stevie Branch, Jr. was one and a half. They moved to West Memphis shortly after the great tornado had passed through (12/14/87). They lived at three addresses before renting 1601 S. McAuley where they lived when the murders took place. This house had a large swimming pool. Its backyard ran up against a bayou diversion channel.
Terry and Pam had one child together, Amanda Hobbs. She was four years old in 1993.
Terry Hobbs worked at the Memphis Ice Cream beginning in 1992 and continuing through 1998. He delivered ice cream products to customers in the tri-state area, Arkansas, Mississippi and Tennessee.
Hobbs vs. Hobbs
Terry and Pamela were having difficulties in their marriage prior to 1993. They had separated for a time. Shortly after the murders, the Hobbs retreated to Pam's family home in Blytheville, Arkansas. Two weeks after the murders, Terry left Pam to stay in Hardy, Arkansas, 120 miles from West Memphis. By doing this Terry avoided being brought in for questioning by the police.
From the beginning, Pamela's family accused him of the murders. According to Terry Hobbs, his brother-in-law, Jackie Hicks, Jr. had regularly threatened him for having killed Stevie. Their dispute came to a boil in November 1994 when Terry struck Pamela and Pamela called her family for help. Terry loaded his 357 Magnum with hollow point bullets. When Jackie Hicks, Jr. began fighting with Terry, Terry shot him in the gut. He survived for ten more years until he died from a clot released during a follow-up surgery. The Hicks blamed Hobbs for his death.
Terry Hobbs was arrested for drug possession in 2003. He was reported twice for abusing his daughter, Amanda. Pamela Hobbs took out a restraining order against him in 2005. They are divorced. Terry's name was removed from his stepson's tombstone.
Hobbs Whereabouts on May 5, 1993
In early 2007, Terry Hobbs mtDNA was found similar to that of a hair collected from the bindings of Michael Moore. This led to heavier scrutiny by the private detectives hired by the Echols appeal team and brought to light the accusations swirling around him.
On June 21, 2007, Terry Hobbs was interrogated by the West Memphis Police Department. Two events were undisputed that evening, framing a critical time period. At 5 pm he left off his wife, Pamela, at her place of work, Catfish Island. At 9 pm, he came to pick her up and inform her that her son was still missing.
In his police and subsequent interviews, Terry Hobbs would give several versions, some impossible, of what happened between 5 and 9 pm.
Terry stated that after briefly searching his neighborhood with his daughter Amanda, he encountered Dana Moore and followed her to her house. There he met up with Mark Byers in front of Byers house before six p.m. and this was when they knew all three of the children were together. The time presented for this meeting was far from possible. The meeting between Dana Moore, Mark Byers and thereafter, Terry Hobbs would have to have taken place after the Byers missing person report had finished being filed, approximately 8:30 pm. Mark Byers filed an affidavit saying he didn't see Terry Hobbs during this time period.
Hobbs recounted visiting the Robin Hood Woods between 6 and 6:30 pm with his friend, David Jacoby. In one interview he described twenty to forty people out there searching, on three and four wheelers, motorcycles and bicycles. In another interview, he says probably a hundred were looking before dark. This account is a fantasy. The three victims were last seen at 6:00 pm, and not reported missing until after 8 pm. There was no immediate massive turnout for a search. And if there were so many witnesses that it would have made it impossible for Hobbs to have killed the children, these witnesses would have prevented others from committing the murders. Furthermore, David Jacoby has declared in an affidavit that he was not in the woods with Terry Hobbs at this time and that his searching with Hobbs consisted of briefly driving around.
Together, these left Hobbs no alibi witnesses for most of the time between 5 and 8:30 pm.
Terry Hobbs described repeatedly searching the woods where the victims were eventually found. In one iteration, he describes walking on the path that led to the ditch where they were submerged. In another version, he claims he was never within a hundred yards of where they were found. Both Terry Hobbs and Pam described being spooked when drawing near what would later be known as the discovery site. In his deposition Terry described "a bad feeling" about the area and that he heard branches breaking [pages 101-2, and 401, Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs Deposition]. In his interview with Dimensions Films he was more explicit:
[Terry Hobbs:] At one point, me, David [Jacoby], and her [Pam's] dad -- my father-in-law -- hooked up, and we came into the woods from the Service Road side. And walking straight back to the pipe, there's a trail -- there was a trail that cut off to the left, and David and her dad kept walking back that way, and I took off down that trail... And it seemed like the further I went down that trail, the scarier -- the more scared I got... And I ain't scared of nobody. [snip] Just a few feet from where I stopped was that ditch where they was found in. [p. 42-43, Dimensions Film Interview]
In the Dimensions Interview, Pamela Hobbs described experiencing fear in the area near where the victims were found. The time was "Probably about 10:30 [pm]." She described the place as "a certain point of as you go in, and you could go up like a hill, and then you go the other way to go to the pipe. As I come up on - where the hill was, that's when [she felt that fear] [p. 46-7, Dimensions Films Interview]
This contrasts with her other accounts.
I talked with Mrs. Hobbs who stated she was looking for her son around 10:00 AM on the 6 of Arp. (sic) in the woods behind the Blue Beacon but did not stay long because she had a bad feeling about the area. [Det. Burch notes, May 10, 1993]
While in her testimony in the Echols/Baldwin trials, she claimed to have never gone to the area behind the Blue Beacon.
Defense Attorney Val Price: Do you know - I believe at the Robin Hood area there's woods on both sides kind of at the bayou and there's a pipe, do you recall if you crossed over the pipe?
Pamela Hobbs: No, I didn't cross the pipe.
Price: Ok. And were you from at that end of the area - was that where ya'll were looking?
Pamela Hobbs: We were looking on the other side of the woods, not the part of the woods where they were found in - but the other part, on the other side of where that pool is.
Price: Ok. There's also another way to sort of enter the Robin Hoods areas, the area through the Blue Beacon. Did you go through that area?
Pamela Hobbs: No, not through the Blue Beacon. [Pamela Hobbs testimony, Echols/Baldwin trial]
With the new DNA evidence, forensic analyses and statements regarding Terry Hobbs, the Echols legal team filed a legal motion for a new trial. With great fanfare, Echols defense team and national experts announced their findings in a press conference on November 1st, 2007.
Hobbs vs. The Dixie Chicks
Like fellow country singer Cheryl Crow, Natalie Maines Pasdar, a member of the popular band, The Dixie Chicks, could lay claim to the verse, "I was born in the South / sometimes I have a big mouth / when I see something that I don't like."
A vocal supporter of the West Memphis 3, during a rally in Little Rock, Pasdar reiterated some of the recent findings presented by the lawyers and reasons why Terry Hobbs should be considered a suspect. Months later, on November 25, 2008 Terry Hobbs, declaring he had been defamed and publicly accused of murder, filed suit against Pasdar. For Terry Hobbs, it was a disaster.
Allegations became sworn depositions and Terry Hobbs was required to defend his past behavior, his criminal record and his actions the night the children went missing. Under scrutiny, Hobbs stories became inconsistent and incoherent.
Close associates and several members of Pamela Hobbs family gave sworn depositions with devastating accusations.
Jo Lynn McAughey, Stevie's aunt, stated that Terry Hobbs repeated sexually molested his daughter, Amanda. She stated that he used cocaine, crystal meth and marijuana. She stated she was at the Hobbs house on May 6, 1993 and saw "Terry wash clothes, bed linens and curtains at an odd hour. [snip] ...he was not just washing the dirty laundry, but he was also taking clothes out of the dresser drawers and washing those, too." She stated she found Stevie's prized pocketknife, one he always kept with him, among Terry Hobbs belongings. Pam declared she was surprised that the knife was not found on his body. Jo Lynn said that Terry Hobbs had told her that his experience as a butcher gave him the skill to make the cut on Chris Byers' genitals. She stated she discovered Terry had a large cache of knives. In response, Terry Hobbs admitted to the drug use, gave contradictory stories about Stevie's knife, denied washing items on May 6th, denied discussing the murders with Jo Lynn and denied the molestation charges.
Judy Sadler, Stevie's aunt, stated Stevie told her Terry Hobbs locked Stevie in the closet and beat him. She said he forced Stevie and his sister Amanda to watch pornography, and threatened to kill members of the Hicks family if Stevie told. She said Terry forced Stevie to sexually molest his sister and he made Stevie watch him masturbate. Terry Hobbs denied these accusations.
Sheila Hicks, Stevie's aunt, stated that Terry Hobbs whipped Stevie Branch leaving welts. She stated he forced Stevie to play "dead cockroach," lying on his back with his arms and legs raised and, when his limbs grew tired and he tried to lower them, Terry would "whoop" him. She also stated that Stevie talked about fights that Terry and Pam had and Stevie saw Terry strangling Pam. Finally, she stated in 1997 that she saw Terry Hobbs simulating sex with his then nine year old daughter, Amanda.
Marie Hicks, Stevie's grandmother, claimed that Terry Hobbs was physically and sexually abusive, used drugs and was alcoholic. She said that when Amanda Hobbs was young, she confided in her that Terry Hobbs stuck his finger in her "booty." Terry Hobbs denied all of this.
Amanda Hobbs, Terry's daughter, gave a devastating plea regarding her father's abuse. Terry denied the abuse and said he couldn't remember if he ever discussed this subject with her.
Sharon Nelson, Hobbs girlfriend, said that Hobbs claimed that he found the bodies before the police but left them there, undiscovered. Hobbs denied this.
David Jacoby, Hobbs friend, said that he only searched with Terry Hobbs briefly before dark. He also stated that when Terry Hobbs came to his house, he saw the three victims in the street behind him. Hobbs denied ever having seen the victims that evening and described repeated trips searching with Jacoby.
Mildred French, an elderly neighbor of his during the 1980s, said that she was sexually attacked by Terry Hobbs. She also stated that he claimed to have killed her cat. Charges were filed. Without actually denying the attack, Terry dismissed this as being ancient history. He admitted to being sentenced to counselling at the time. He denied saying he killed her cat.
Spotlight: Stevie's pocketknife.
In his 2007 police interview, Terry Hobbs denied having the knife. In his Pasdar deposition, he said he confiscated it years before the murders.
Officer: Do you remember Stevie ever having a knife at all?
Terry Hobbs: I don't know if he got one at the boyscouts or not. He did go to boyscouts, but I don't think they gave him a pocket knife. But his real daddy may have given him one. Cause his grandaddy was real proud of him, he really liked that little boy. It's possible, I can't say yes or no to that. Not honestly.
Officer: Would, so if he, he had one you wouldn't have known what it would have looked like or
Terry Hobbs: Well, if I seen it I might recognize it but I can't place one at the moment.
[snip]
Officer: Now did you ever keep any of Stevie's personal possessions after, after their death, the boys were, were killed.
[snip]
Terry Hobbs: Not that I can think of. [p. 26-7, Hobbs police interview, 2007]
This contrasts with Hobbs testimony in his deposition.
Attorney for Pasdar: On Channel 5 on the 21st, they also talk about finding the knife and the knife that Stevie's grandfather had given him in your stuff?
Terry Hobbs: So?
Attorney for Pasdar: Did you have any your possession, Mr. Hobbs?
Hobbs: I don't know. I think I still have his pocketknife.
Attorney for Pasdar: You have Stevie's pocketknife?
Hobbs: I think so.
Attorney for Pasdar: And is that a pocketknife that Stevie carried with him on a regular basis?
Hobbs: Until I found it. Until I seen my stepson, who wasn't old enough to have a pocketknife, I felt like. I took the pocketknife from him and put it in a drawer with the rest of our pocketknives. [Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs deposition, p. 226-7, and returning to the subject:]
Attorney for Pasdar: Did you take the knife from Stevie?
Hobbs: Years before. [Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs deposition, p. 297]
Pamela Hobbs has also attested to the violent side of Terry Hobbs.
When Terry and I first got married Terry resented the fact that I would lie down with Stevie to get him to sleep at time falling asleep myself so he told me he told his mother he resented that because I was suppose to be his wife and not fall asleep with my child. Terry would whip Stevie and Amanda with a belt making them hold their hands in the air so he would not hit their hands Stevie always got the worst end and if I thought he was to rough with either of my children we would end of in a shouting match because I would tell him to stop. [Pamela Hobbs, WM3 Discussion Board, September 1, 2007]
Among other revelations in the Pasdar case:
Hobbs was accused of molesting his son from his first marriage.
Like Mark Byers, Terry Hobbs had his teeth pulled by a dentist in the mid-nineties.
Terry Hobbs did not take a polygraph exam regarding the crime and refuses now to take an exam or provide handprints or footprints.
Hobbs had three guns in 1993. Among these, he named one Willy and one Smith.
Hobbs claimed to have visited the area of the pipe with Officer Meek. Officer Meek testified she did not see him that night.
Jamie Clark Ballard, a neighbor of Hobbs in 1993, along with two of her family, came forward to say that they saw Terry Hobbs with the victims at 6:30 pm that night. Hobbs denied this, saying he had not seen any of the victims that day.
On December 1, 2009 a judge granted a summary judgment in favor of Pasdar and the case was dismissed. The judge ruled that Hobbs should pay Pasdar $17,590.27 for legal expenses. The amount of the settlement wasn't revealed publicly for several months, at which time, Terry Hobbs responded, "I don't give a damn what that judge says, I’m not paying the Dixie Chicks a thing." [Jonesboro Sun, April 21, 2010]
Is it possible Terry Hobbs is not guilty?
The cumulative damning statements and physical evidence regarding Terry Hobbs make it seem that it is impossible that he was not responsible for the murders. Among the most incriminating of evidence is his own testimony in which he regularly contradicts himself and makes impossible claims. However, the hair matches for both Hobbs and Jacoby were one substitution from being perfect, making this evidence less conclusive. The DNA of a hair found on Christopher Byers' binding has not been matched to anyone suggesting another unidentified perpetrator. While various witnesses placed the victims with Hobbs that evening, other witnesses placed the victims elsewhere, in the direction of Robin Hood Woods. And, although Pamela Hobbs and her family have made accusations against him, Pam Hobbs has made vocal accusations against others, including the Moores. Still, these uncertainties can only explain away a part of the evidence against Terry Hobbs.
Now, there's another side I didnt know a whole lot about. Terry Hobbs.
I didnt know Terry Hobbs shot his brother-in-law, which led to his death.
Talk about Damiens whacked mental history? well this Hobbs is an adult and did some VERY shady stuff. :?
Several people say he was doing laundry shorty after the boys were found dead?
"I SAY BLAH, BLAH, & BLAH - AND I'M RIGHT BECAUSE THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND THEY AGREE WITH ME!!!!!"
"But the official case documents don't agree with you."
"THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION!!!"
I wish I knew how to draw comics. You just can't make this shit up.
3 men walked in to a courtroom last week...
PLED GUILTY TO 1st DEGREE MURDER!!!!!
Walked out of the courtroom free men....
You are right...
You cant make this shit up.....
And did you know that in order for that to happen the original sentences were vacated based on innocence?
My post was in direct response to the post I was quoting, disputing your assertion that these three points were lies. I didn't leave anything out. That was not a topic of conversation in the post to which I was responding.
Funny how you just point somewhere else instead of admitting to the points I just made. If you just run in another direction when presented with facts - with :shock: SOURCES FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS :shock: - how exactly are we supposed to have a legitimate conversation about this case? I agree with Byrnzie : I don't think you have any real interest in this case at all.
Length of interrogation http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmtl.html
Jesses IQ test presented in court was false and he was found to be malingering on his IQ test administered by a doctor on probation for breaking medical rules/laws, the Judge ordered that the doctor could only testify on his opinion not on expertise. Why do people continue to post that his IQ was 72 when it was found to be false? Yes they are lying.
Oh my good God, man - now I've heard EVERYTHING! YOU ARE SAYING THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS (which actually agreed with you that they are guilty) IS LYING AND HAS LESS KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE THAN YOU DO??!! Next thing you know, if God himself claimed to have knowledge of the case that discredited any of your claims, you'd say that He was full of shit too! Full of yourself much there, pal?
ETA: I can't help but notice that you are now saying that official case documents - which you claim provide your argument with legitimacy - are not legitimate sources of information. That means your entire argument falls.
I don't think you can comprehend what I am talking about when I am talking about the IQ.
When I said they were lying I was talking about that biased article that was posted.
So are you or are you not saying the Supreme Court of the state of Arkansas was lying and/or wrong when they cited in their record that Jessie's IQ was 72?
Then why did he write in his WM3 summary (sniper/playbill June 09) that Jesse was interrogated for 12 hours.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
"someone as smart as Vedder" Were not talking about Greg Graffin here... Were talking about a highschool drop-out thats a lead singer in a band. Eddie may be extremely smart, I don't know, unless you know him personally I don't know how you can make such a statement.
I don't know Richard Feynman personally, but I can say he's smart. See how that works?
Yes but he is acomplished in his education/field. Eddie has done nothing but sing for a band...
So if I heard Feynman play in a band it wouldn't be grounds for me to say he's a good musician? The point is, you don't have to know someone personally to make observations about them. Eddie Vedder has expressed his intelligence through 20 years of public words and actions. I might add that you don't personally know the WM3, yet you feel - based on what you have read, not based on personal experience - equipped with enough knowledge to judge their characters.
Comments
He has multiple confessions, even after conviction.
Apology accepted.
Smarter people than me have studied this case in far greater detail than I have and have come to the conclusion that these 3 boys are/were innocent.
I hope one day the truth about it will be made clear. But at the moment the definitive 'truth' of this case eludes both the supporters of the WM3 and those like yourself who think they're guilty. As it stands, there is no concrete proof that links the WM3 to the murders, and there are also a lot of unanswered questions and problems surrounding the investigation.
That's all.
Again - I've read the confessions. Repeatedly telling me to read something that I then repeatedly tell you I've read is not productive.
"False confessions and incriminating statements lead to wrongful convictions in approximately 25 percent of cases. In 35 percent of false confession or admission cases, the defendant was 18 years old or younger and/or developmentally disabled."
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Facts_on_PostConviction_DNA_Exonerations.php
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
Like most people, he may well have first gotten interested in it after seeing 'Paradise Lost' but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have made public his support for these three boys until he was 100% convinced of their innocence.
And I'm pretty sure that he's more 'educated' on this issue than anyone on this board, after having not only studied the case, but having spent time with many of those involved, including the parents of those murdered children.
Or we could take Blockhead's view, and just dismiss Vedder as an asshole who was simply looking to jump on a worthy cause in order to look cool, or something.
He's read everything available on the case. He was practically a member of the defense team. Plus he's given millions of his own money to fund research and dna testing. He's not stupid. I think if he had any doubt, especially after having children of his own, he would have taken himself off the case long ago. He obviously felt 100% convinced of their innocence and did everything in his power to help them.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
Also, he was risking everything by putting his support behind these boys. If he'd turned out to be wrong it would have damaged his credibility irreparably. It would also have impacted on every other cause he supports and many people would never take his word seriously again. Basically, his whole career would have been fucked. I can't imagine that someone as smart as Vedder would put his whole career on the line unless he was 100% sure of their innocence.
And I for one trust his judgement.
What are you talking about?? He only supported three child killers because that benefits his career and his "agenda"!!
http://courts.state.ar.us/opinions/1996/cr94-848.html
To quote the Arkansas Supreme Court on the matter of who signed the consent/waiver for Jessie's confession:
"At the time the appellant signed his [own] waiver, Ark. Code Ann. § 9-27-317(f) (Repl. 1993) provided that a juvenile's waiver form must be signed by a parent, guardian, or custodian"
They went on to say that this requirement was retroactively lifted when they decided to try him as an adult - but the fact still remains that his parents DID NOT consent to waive his rights, as was required at the time of his confession. The authorization for the police to conduct a polygraph is a totally separate document & is not what's at issue here.
http://courts.state.ar.us/opinions/1996/cr94-848.html
Re: presence of parents: First of all, the article - which was written by one of the most recognized experts on this case - says no parent or lawyer was PRESENT during the interrogation and you called her a liar & called Byrnzie an idiot for posted this so-called lie, but then tried to refute it by saying his parent CONSENTED. Consenting to someone being interrogated & actually being present for the interrogation are entirely different things. (Are you big enough to admit that the article was telling the truth when it said there was no parent present?) Regardless, you're thinking of thewrong consent & the Supreme Court of Arkansas has clearly stated that there was no parental presence OR legitimate parental consent for his confession.
Re: length of interrogation: You pulled the same shit here. The article said he was QUESTIONED for 8 hours & you cried bullshit - then posted a document that clearly shows that, while he may have first admitted guilt 4 hours into the interrogation, the interrogation itself DID last at least 8 hours. Again, you owe Ms. Leveritt & Byrnzie an apology - and one to the rest if us, too, for misrepresenting the facts again.
Re: Jessie's IQ: Unless you are now calling the state Supreme Court liars and saying that they, too, have not read the court documents, you haven't debunked shit. THEY clearly stated that his IQ was 72. Also, AGAIN, you're suggesting that the author of the article is lying about Jessie's mental capacity - but she only mentioned that he was in special ed. Saying he had an IQ above 72 in no way debunks her assertion that he was in special ed.
Do you think you could stop screaming "LIAR!!" at everyone with whom you disagree? Because, the fact is, they're not lying. You're lying by saying they're lyng. If you want anyone to believe that you know your facts, how about acknowledging these facts?
Length of interrogation http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmtl.html
Jesses IQ test presented in court was false and he was found to be malingering on his IQ test administered by a doctor on probation for breaking medical rules/laws, the Judge ordered that the doctor could only testify on his opinion not on expertise. Why do people continue to post that his IQ was 72 when it was found to be false?
Yes they are lying.
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
Why did he say jesses IQ was 72? Those are lies. Why publish lies?
"someone as smart as Vedder" Were not talking about Greg Graffin here... Were talking about a highschool drop-out thats a lead singer in a band. Eddie may be extremely smart, I don't know, unless you know him personally I don't know how you can make such a statement.
My post was in direct response to the post I was quoting, disputing your assertion that these three points were lies. I didn't leave anything out. That was not a topic of conversation in the post to which I was responding.
Funny how you just point somewhere else instead of admitting to the points I just made. If you just run in another direction when presented with facts - with :shock: SOURCES FROM THE OFFICIAL RECORDS :shock: - how exactly are we supposed to have a legitimate conversation about this case? I agree with Byrnzie : I don't think you have any real interest in this case at all.
Oh my good God, man - now I've heard EVERYTHING! YOU ARE SAYING THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF ARKANSAS (which actually agreed with you that they are guilty) IS LYING AND HAS LESS KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CASE THAN YOU DO??!!
ETA: I can't help but notice that you are now saying that official case documents - which you claim provide your argument with legitimacy - are not legitimate sources of information. That means your entire argument falls.
I don't know Richard Feynman personally, but I can say he's smart. See how that works?
"I SAY BLAH, BLAH, & BLAH - AND I'M RIGHT BECAUSE THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE THE ONLY LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND THEY AGREE WITH ME!!!!!"
"But the official case documents don't agree with you."
"THE OFFICIAL CASE DOCUMENTS ARE NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF INFORMATION!!!"
I wish I knew how to draw comics. You just can't make this shit up.
PLED GUILTY TO 1st DEGREE MURDER!!!!!
Walked out of the courtroom free men....
You are right...
You cant make this shit up.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
When I said they were lying I was talking about that biased article that was posted.
There have been accusations that Terry molested his daughter and Stevie, and that this occurred over a period of a few years. It's also been claimed that he forced Stevie to watch him masturbate and make him perform sex acts on his sister Amanda. It was also alleged that he made the children watch pornography. In addition to this, before and after the murders, Amanda continued to claim that Terry sexually assaulted her frequently. Apparently, a doctor confirmed these allegations of forced penetration.
And along with sexual abuse, beatings were supposedly a regular occurrence as well.
Also, a woman named Mildred French claimed that Hobbs attempted to rape her while Hobbs was still with his first wife.
And, in 2009 multiple DNA tests failed to link Damien Echols or the other two convicted boys to the crime scene. And under the prosecution theory of how the crime was committed, it would be nearly impossible for at least one perpetrator's DNA not to match the crime scene evidence.
The filing includes dozens of expert reports, witness affidavits, scientific reports and other submissions. The highlights include:
* DNA test results that fail to link Echols or the other defendants to the crime scene; in light of the prosecution claim that Echols sodomized the victims, the lack of his DNA at the crime scene is exculpatory itself.
* DNA test results showing that a hair found in the ligature of one of the victims matches Terry Hobbs, the step-father of another one of the victims.
* DNA test results showing foreign DNA - from someone other than Echols or the other men who were convicted - on the penises of two of the victims
* DNA test results matching a hair at the crime scene to a man who was with Terry Hobbs on the day of the crimes. This places Hobbs at the scene of the crime, since it refutes any theory that the Hobbs hair (found in the ligature of one of the victims) was there before the crime
* Scientific analysis from some of the nations leading forensic experts, stating that wounds on the victims bodies were caused by animals at the crime scene - not by knives used by the perpetrators, as the prosecution claimed. These wounds were the centerpiece of the prosecution's case, and evidence was presented that a knife recovered from a lake near one defendant's home caused the wounds. The conclusive expert analysis showing that animals caused the wounds after the victims died also completely undercuts the testimony of a jailhouse informant (who testified about Echols using a knife to cause the wounds) and a discredited "expert" who testified that the knife wounds were part of a Satanic ritual.
* Sworn affidavits outlining new evidence uncovered by Pam Hobbs (the ex-wife of Terry Hobbs) who found a knife in Terry Hobbs' drawer that her son (one of the victims) had carried with him at all times. After her son was killed, the knife was not among his personal effects that police gave to the Hobbs families, and Pam Hobbs always assumed that her son's murderer had taken it during the crime.
* New information implicating Terry Hobbs - including his own statements to police in recent interviews where he acknowledged that several of his relatives suspect him in the crime. The filing also includes a chronology of Hobbs' activities on the night of the crimes, when he washed his clothes and sheets at odd hours for no reason other than to hide evidence from the crimes.
* A sworn affidavit that refutes hearsay evidence from Echols' trial. The mother of one of two girls who testified that they overheard Echols admit to the crime at a softball game now say that Echols' statement was not serious and that neither she nor her daughter believes he committed the crime.
I'd like to know Blockhead's thoughts on it all.
Sure, and Muhammad Ali did nothing but punch people in a boxing ring.
Also:
'...Pam Hobbs said that in 2002, at a point when she and Terry Hobbs were separating, she sent a package containing “14 or 15 knives” owned by her husband to one of the defense lawyers.
Pam Hobbs said that she had done so after discovering among the knives “a little pocket knife” that her father had given to Stevie.
She said Stevie “carried it around with him all the time, because it was like part of his granddaddy. He would have had it May the fifth. He carried it with him from the day my daddy gave it to him until the day he was murdered.”
Asked why, five years ago, she had given the knives to a lawyer for the defense, she said it was because she “didn’t trust the prosecution ... because of the evidence that was not presented at the trials.”
Terry Hobbs dismissed the knives as having had “nothing to do with anything.”
“I’d bought some, and found some and Pam bought me some. I just threw them in a drawer, and that’s where they’d been for years.” He added, “Them knives were stolen out of my home and I’m fixing to try to get them back.”
Asked whether one of the knives was a pocket knife given to Stevie by his grandfather, Terry Hobbs responded: “I don’t know. It could have been. And it could have been it was in the drawer because we didn’t want him to have it. I didn’t want a kid of mine to go around with a pocket knife — not a kid who was 8 years old. Would you?”
...Another element of her anger, Pam Hobbs said, relates to her brother, whom Terry Hobbs shot in the abdomen during an altercation 10 years ago. That brother died last year.
Terry Hobbs dismisses the episode. “The truth is,” he said, “when a man is trying to kill you, you have a right under the United States Constitution to defend and protect yourself.”
Nevertheless, he acknowledged that he was charged with aggravated assault, fined and placed on probation.
When asked if she now considers her ex-husband a suspect in the murders, Pam Hobbs answered, “Yeah. And I don’t know if it’s because of the anger I still hold toward him for not telling me when Stevie was missing, and from some of his other actions or not. But I haven’t been able to shake that feeling.”
he was right. they are out of jail.
it's over and done.
people have made their own decisions, so why continue to play Sisyphus?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Terry Hobbs
Terry Hobbs at the Misskelley trial.
For years, for those following this case, Terry Wayne Hobbs was a mystery, "the other stepfather," in the deep shadow of the oversized personality of Mark Byers. The stepfather of victim Stevie Branch, he was not interviewed by the police at the time of the crimes and was not called to testify at the trials. His whereabouts on the evening of the fifth could only be gleaned from brief notes from other witnesses. The Hobbs house was not searched for fiber matches. The Hobbs neighbors were not questioned during the door to door surveys.
Terry Hobbs was thrust to the center of the case after the results of the DNA examinations came back from the hairs left behind at the crime scene. While none of these hairs could have come from those convicted for the crimes, it was determined that Terry Hobbs could be a source of one hair that was found with a ligature of Michael Moore. Furthermore, a friend of Terry Hobbs, David Jacoby, was the possible source of another hair at the crime scene.
Then the revelations snowballed. Terry Hobbs' ex-wife, Pamela and her family came forward saying they had long suspected him of being the murderer. Their suspicions began shortly after the crime and continued through the trials and after the convictions. According to Terry Hobbs, even some of his clients at his work had accused him of the crimes. For Terry Hobbs, the accusations would pile higher and higher.
Terry Hobbs, background
Terry Hobbs was born in 1958 in Northern Arkansas, one of four children, son of Edith Raylean McLeod Hobbs and Joe Dean Hobbs, Sr. Hobbs, Sr. learned his trade as a butcher while in the military and went on to open thirty restaurants. He was also a minister in the Apostolic Pentecost Church, a fundamentalist group. Terry Hobbs claimed to have seen evil spirits cast out. His upbringing was strict, the family faith did not allow a television at home or participation in sports. Along with his brothers, he was expected to work in the slaughterhouse, butchering pigs and cattle. He completed the 10th grade at Cave City High.
Terry first married Angela Hancock and had one son, Bryan Hobbs. He married Pamela Hicks Branch in 1986 at the time that Stevie Branch, Jr. was one and a half. They moved to West Memphis shortly after the great tornado had passed through (12/14/87). They lived at three addresses before renting 1601 S. McAuley where they lived when the murders took place. This house had a large swimming pool. Its backyard ran up against a bayou diversion channel.
Terry and Pam had one child together, Amanda Hobbs. She was four years old in 1993.
Terry Hobbs worked at the Memphis Ice Cream beginning in 1992 and continuing through 1998. He delivered ice cream products to customers in the tri-state area, Arkansas, Mississippi and Tennessee.
Hobbs vs. Hobbs
Terry and Pamela were having difficulties in their marriage prior to 1993. They had separated for a time. Shortly after the murders, the Hobbs retreated to Pam's family home in Blytheville, Arkansas. Two weeks after the murders, Terry left Pam to stay in Hardy, Arkansas, 120 miles from West Memphis. By doing this Terry avoided being brought in for questioning by the police.
From the beginning, Pamela's family accused him of the murders. According to Terry Hobbs, his brother-in-law, Jackie Hicks, Jr. had regularly threatened him for having killed Stevie. Their dispute came to a boil in November 1994 when Terry struck Pamela and Pamela called her family for help. Terry loaded his 357 Magnum with hollow point bullets. When Jackie Hicks, Jr. began fighting with Terry, Terry shot him in the gut. He survived for ten more years until he died from a clot released during a follow-up surgery. The Hicks blamed Hobbs for his death.
Terry Hobbs was arrested for drug possession in 2003. He was reported twice for abusing his daughter, Amanda. Pamela Hobbs took out a restraining order against him in 2005. They are divorced. Terry's name was removed from his stepson's tombstone.
Hobbs Whereabouts on May 5, 1993
In early 2007, Terry Hobbs mtDNA was found similar to that of a hair collected from the bindings of Michael Moore. This led to heavier scrutiny by the private detectives hired by the Echols appeal team and brought to light the accusations swirling around him.
On June 21, 2007, Terry Hobbs was interrogated by the West Memphis Police Department. Two events were undisputed that evening, framing a critical time period. At 5 pm he left off his wife, Pamela, at her place of work, Catfish Island. At 9 pm, he came to pick her up and inform her that her son was still missing.
In his police and subsequent interviews, Terry Hobbs would give several versions, some impossible, of what happened between 5 and 9 pm.
Terry stated that after briefly searching his neighborhood with his daughter Amanda, he encountered Dana Moore and followed her to her house. There he met up with Mark Byers in front of Byers house before six p.m. and this was when they knew all three of the children were together. The time presented for this meeting was far from possible. The meeting between Dana Moore, Mark Byers and thereafter, Terry Hobbs would have to have taken place after the Byers missing person report had finished being filed, approximately 8:30 pm. Mark Byers filed an affidavit saying he didn't see Terry Hobbs during this time period.
Hobbs recounted visiting the Robin Hood Woods between 6 and 6:30 pm with his friend, David Jacoby. In one interview he described twenty to forty people out there searching, on three and four wheelers, motorcycles and bicycles. In another interview, he says probably a hundred were looking before dark. This account is a fantasy. The three victims were last seen at 6:00 pm, and not reported missing until after 8 pm. There was no immediate massive turnout for a search. And if there were so many witnesses that it would have made it impossible for Hobbs to have killed the children, these witnesses would have prevented others from committing the murders. Furthermore, David Jacoby has declared in an affidavit that he was not in the woods with Terry Hobbs at this time and that his searching with Hobbs consisted of briefly driving around.
Together, these left Hobbs no alibi witnesses for most of the time between 5 and 8:30 pm.
Terry Hobbs described repeatedly searching the woods where the victims were eventually found. In one iteration, he describes walking on the path that led to the ditch where they were submerged. In another version, he claims he was never within a hundred yards of where they were found. Both Terry Hobbs and Pam described being spooked when drawing near what would later be known as the discovery site. In his deposition Terry described "a bad feeling" about the area and that he heard branches breaking [pages 101-2, and 401, Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs Deposition]. In his interview with Dimensions Films he was more explicit:
[Terry Hobbs:] At one point, me, David [Jacoby], and her [Pam's] dad -- my father-in-law -- hooked up, and we came into the woods from the Service Road side. And walking straight back to the pipe, there's a trail -- there was a trail that cut off to the left, and David and her dad kept walking back that way, and I took off down that trail... And it seemed like the further I went down that trail, the scarier -- the more scared I got... And I ain't scared of nobody. [snip] Just a few feet from where I stopped was that ditch where they was found in. [p. 42-43, Dimensions Film Interview]
In the Dimensions Interview, Pamela Hobbs described experiencing fear in the area near where the victims were found. The time was "Probably about 10:30 [pm]." She described the place as "a certain point of as you go in, and you could go up like a hill, and then you go the other way to go to the pipe. As I come up on - where the hill was, that's when [she felt that fear] [p. 46-7, Dimensions Films Interview]
This contrasts with her other accounts.
I talked with Mrs. Hobbs who stated she was looking for her son around 10:00 AM on the 6 of Arp. (sic) in the woods behind the Blue Beacon but did not stay long because she had a bad feeling about the area. [Det. Burch notes, May 10, 1993]
While in her testimony in the Echols/Baldwin trials, she claimed to have never gone to the area behind the Blue Beacon.
Defense Attorney Val Price: Do you know - I believe at the Robin Hood area there's woods on both sides kind of at the bayou and there's a pipe, do you recall if you crossed over the pipe?
Pamela Hobbs: No, I didn't cross the pipe.
Price: Ok. And were you from at that end of the area - was that where ya'll were looking?
Pamela Hobbs: We were looking on the other side of the woods, not the part of the woods where they were found in - but the other part, on the other side of where that pool is.
Price: Ok. There's also another way to sort of enter the Robin Hoods areas, the area through the Blue Beacon. Did you go through that area?
Pamela Hobbs: No, not through the Blue Beacon. [Pamela Hobbs testimony, Echols/Baldwin trial]
With the new DNA evidence, forensic analyses and statements regarding Terry Hobbs, the Echols legal team filed a legal motion for a new trial. With great fanfare, Echols defense team and national experts announced their findings in a press conference on November 1st, 2007.
Hobbs vs. The Dixie Chicks
Like fellow country singer Cheryl Crow, Natalie Maines Pasdar, a member of the popular band, The Dixie Chicks, could lay claim to the verse, "I was born in the South / sometimes I have a big mouth / when I see something that I don't like."
A vocal supporter of the West Memphis 3, during a rally in Little Rock, Pasdar reiterated some of the recent findings presented by the lawyers and reasons why Terry Hobbs should be considered a suspect. Months later, on November 25, 2008 Terry Hobbs, declaring he had been defamed and publicly accused of murder, filed suit against Pasdar. For Terry Hobbs, it was a disaster.
Allegations became sworn depositions and Terry Hobbs was required to defend his past behavior, his criminal record and his actions the night the children went missing. Under scrutiny, Hobbs stories became inconsistent and incoherent.
Close associates and several members of Pamela Hobbs family gave sworn depositions with devastating accusations.
Jo Lynn McAughey, Stevie's aunt, stated that Terry Hobbs repeated sexually molested his daughter, Amanda. She stated that he used cocaine, crystal meth and marijuana. She stated she was at the Hobbs house on May 6, 1993 and saw "Terry wash clothes, bed linens and curtains at an odd hour. [snip] ...he was not just washing the dirty laundry, but he was also taking clothes out of the dresser drawers and washing those, too." She stated she found Stevie's prized pocketknife, one he always kept with him, among Terry Hobbs belongings. Pam declared she was surprised that the knife was not found on his body. Jo Lynn said that Terry Hobbs had told her that his experience as a butcher gave him the skill to make the cut on Chris Byers' genitals. She stated she discovered Terry had a large cache of knives. In response, Terry Hobbs admitted to the drug use, gave contradictory stories about Stevie's knife, denied washing items on May 6th, denied discussing the murders with Jo Lynn and denied the molestation charges.
Judy Sadler, Stevie's aunt, stated Stevie told her Terry Hobbs locked Stevie in the closet and beat him. She said he forced Stevie and his sister Amanda to watch pornography, and threatened to kill members of the Hicks family if Stevie told. She said Terry forced Stevie to sexually molest his sister and he made Stevie watch him masturbate. Terry Hobbs denied these accusations.
Sheila Hicks, Stevie's aunt, stated that Terry Hobbs whipped Stevie Branch leaving welts. She stated he forced Stevie to play "dead cockroach," lying on his back with his arms and legs raised and, when his limbs grew tired and he tried to lower them, Terry would "whoop" him. She also stated that Stevie talked about fights that Terry and Pam had and Stevie saw Terry strangling Pam. Finally, she stated in 1997 that she saw Terry Hobbs simulating sex with his then nine year old daughter, Amanda.
Marie Hicks, Stevie's grandmother, claimed that Terry Hobbs was physically and sexually abusive, used drugs and was alcoholic. She said that when Amanda Hobbs was young, she confided in her that Terry Hobbs stuck his finger in her "booty." Terry Hobbs denied all of this.
Amanda Hobbs, Terry's daughter, gave a devastating plea regarding her father's abuse. Terry denied the abuse and said he couldn't remember if he ever discussed this subject with her.
Sharon Nelson, Hobbs girlfriend, said that Hobbs claimed that he found the bodies before the police but left them there, undiscovered. Hobbs denied this.
David Jacoby, Hobbs friend, said that he only searched with Terry Hobbs briefly before dark. He also stated that when Terry Hobbs came to his house, he saw the three victims in the street behind him. Hobbs denied ever having seen the victims that evening and described repeated trips searching with Jacoby.
Mildred French, an elderly neighbor of his during the 1980s, said that she was sexually attacked by Terry Hobbs. She also stated that he claimed to have killed her cat. Charges were filed. Without actually denying the attack, Terry dismissed this as being ancient history. He admitted to being sentenced to counselling at the time. He denied saying he killed her cat.
Spotlight: Stevie's pocketknife.
In his 2007 police interview, Terry Hobbs denied having the knife. In his Pasdar deposition, he said he confiscated it years before the murders.
Officer: Do you remember Stevie ever having a knife at all?
Terry Hobbs: I don't know if he got one at the boyscouts or not. He did go to boyscouts, but I don't think they gave him a pocket knife. But his real daddy may have given him one. Cause his grandaddy was real proud of him, he really liked that little boy. It's possible, I can't say yes or no to that. Not honestly.
Officer: Would, so if he, he had one you wouldn't have known what it would have looked like or
Terry Hobbs: Well, if I seen it I might recognize it but I can't place one at the moment.
[snip]
Officer: Now did you ever keep any of Stevie's personal possessions after, after their death, the boys were, were killed.
[snip]
Terry Hobbs: Not that I can think of. [p. 26-7, Hobbs police interview, 2007]
This contrasts with Hobbs testimony in his deposition.
Attorney for Pasdar: On Channel 5 on the 21st, they also talk about finding the knife and the knife that Stevie's grandfather had given him in your stuff?
Terry Hobbs: So?
Attorney for Pasdar: Did you have any your possession, Mr. Hobbs?
Hobbs: I don't know. I think I still have his pocketknife.
Attorney for Pasdar: You have Stevie's pocketknife?
Hobbs: I think so.
Attorney for Pasdar: And is that a pocketknife that Stevie carried with him on a regular basis?
Hobbs: Until I found it. Until I seen my stepson, who wasn't old enough to have a pocketknife, I felt like. I took the pocketknife from him and put it in a drawer with the rest of our pocketknives. [Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs deposition, p. 226-7, and returning to the subject:]
Attorney for Pasdar: Did you take the knife from Stevie?
Hobbs: Years before. [Hobbs v. Pasdar, Terry Hobbs deposition, p. 297]
Pamela Hobbs has also attested to the violent side of Terry Hobbs.
When Terry and I first got married Terry resented the fact that I would lie down with Stevie to get him to sleep at time falling asleep myself so he told me he told his mother he resented that because I was suppose to be his wife and not fall asleep with my child. Terry would whip Stevie and Amanda with a belt making them hold their hands in the air so he would not hit their hands Stevie always got the worst end and if I thought he was to rough with either of my children we would end of in a shouting match because I would tell him to stop. [Pamela Hobbs, WM3 Discussion Board, September 1, 2007]
Among other revelations in the Pasdar case:
Hobbs was accused of molesting his son from his first marriage.
Like Mark Byers, Terry Hobbs had his teeth pulled by a dentist in the mid-nineties.
Terry Hobbs did not take a polygraph exam regarding the crime and refuses now to take an exam or provide handprints or footprints.
Hobbs had three guns in 1993. Among these, he named one Willy and one Smith.
Hobbs claimed to have visited the area of the pipe with Officer Meek. Officer Meek testified she did not see him that night.
Jamie Clark Ballard, a neighbor of Hobbs in 1993, along with two of her family, came forward to say that they saw Terry Hobbs with the victims at 6:30 pm that night. Hobbs denied this, saying he had not seen any of the victims that day.
On December 1, 2009 a judge granted a summary judgment in favor of Pasdar and the case was dismissed. The judge ruled that Hobbs should pay Pasdar $17,590.27 for legal expenses. The amount of the settlement wasn't revealed publicly for several months, at which time, Terry Hobbs responded, "I don't give a damn what that judge says, I’m not paying the Dixie Chicks a thing." [Jonesboro Sun, April 21, 2010]
Is it possible Terry Hobbs is not guilty?
The cumulative damning statements and physical evidence regarding Terry Hobbs make it seem that it is impossible that he was not responsible for the murders. Among the most incriminating of evidence is his own testimony in which he regularly contradicts himself and makes impossible claims. However, the hair matches for both Hobbs and Jacoby were one substitution from being perfect, making this evidence less conclusive. The DNA of a hair found on Christopher Byers' binding has not been matched to anyone suggesting another unidentified perpetrator. While various witnesses placed the victims with Hobbs that evening, other witnesses placed the victims elsewhere, in the direction of Robin Hood Woods. And, although Pamela Hobbs and her family have made accusations against him, Pam Hobbs has made vocal accusations against others, including the Moores. Still, these uncertainties can only explain away a part of the evidence against Terry Hobbs.
I didnt know Terry Hobbs shot his brother-in-law, which led to his death.
Talk about Damiens whacked mental history? well this Hobbs is an adult and did some VERY shady stuff. :?
Several people say he was doing laundry shorty after the boys were found dead?
Too weird, I dont know.
And all Paul Newman did was make movies.
Another habit says its long overdue
Another habit like an unwanted friend
I'm so happy with my righteous self
And did you know that in order for that to happen the original sentences were vacated based on innocence?
So are you or are you not saying the Supreme Court of the state of Arkansas was lying and/or wrong when they cited in their record that Jessie's IQ was 72?
So if I heard Feynman play in a band it wouldn't be grounds for me to say he's a good musician? The point is, you don't have to know someone personally to make observations about them. Eddie Vedder has expressed his intelligence through 20 years of public words and actions. I might add that you don't personally know the WM3, yet you feel - based on what you have read, not based on personal experience - equipped with enough knowledge to judge their characters.