***The Official Philadelphia Phillies 2012 Thread***

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  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.

    They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.

    If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Tex:11-16:$22.5M annually

    Howard:
    12:$20M, 13:$20M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$25M, 17:$23M club option ($10M buyout)

    That equals $25 million a year for 5 years.


    I would bet Teixeira is going to be a better player over the next 5 years than Howard. Howard had the worst season of his career last year and is off to a worse start this year. Plus, the Yankees will go well over $200 million in payroll so it's irrelevant. Teixeiras contract has much less of an impact on the Yankees payroll and flexibility than Howards has on the Phillies and that's the whole point.

    You think Tex is overpaind, wait till you see what CC gets this winter.

    The Tex contract started in 2009.

    If you want to count the $10M buyout as part of the 5 years and ignore the 6th year that's fine. Bending the numbers to suit your argument is always in play. But to me it looks like 23 per for 6 years.

    As for who's going to be better, that's a matter of opinion. A large part of 2010 being Howard's worst year was his badly sprained ankle in June. As for 2011, well he's traditionally been a better player in the 2nd half, so we'll see. But yeah, he hasn't really lit the world on fire so far.

    It did start in 2009 but I am looking at moving forward in which they will be locked up at essentially the same age for the same number of years.

    It's not twisting numbers. If you think the Philles are going to be paying Ryan Howard $23 million in 2017, you're crazy. They will buy him out and it will be $25 over 5 years.

    I hear you, it's just looking like a trend in the wrong direction.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,598
    good grief.
    www.myspace.com
  • Johnny Abruzzo
    Johnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 12,391
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    It's not twisting numbers. If you think the Philles are going to be paying Ryan Howard $23 million in 2017, you're crazy. They will buy him out and it will be $25 over 5 years.

    It would effectively be $13M, since they have to pay $10M anyway. It's not crazy to think he'll be worth $13M that year. Of course, a lot can happen in the meantime.

    I read a quote in the offseason from I think Mike Arbuckle - or somebody in the Phillies org. They said they just want Howard to drive in runs. Maybe Bill James and stat-heads don't care about RBI's, but I can tell you the team certainly does. He's on pace (71 thru 87 games projects to 132) to be about where he was in 2006-09 (149, 136, 146, 141) this year in that regard, and the rest of the offense is clearly not as good as it was in those years (Utley missed a lot of time, no Werth behind him, Rollins isn't an MVP this year, etc.). So, yeah, I think he's getting the job done, even if it doesn't always look pretty.

    I understand that Yankees fans are happy with Tex even if his numbers don't really support the contract he's getting, and most Phillies fans kind of feel the same way about R6. (with some exceptions, of course)
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  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Howard is appreciated i'd say a very small group of people complain about him. Come to think of it i know only 2 fans and there both on here. He frustrates the hell out of me sometimes but in the long run the guys a run producing machine. 6 years ago if we were told we'd have a 1st basemen who will hit 35-45 hrsand drive in 125-140 rbi's NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN. But some people have become spoiled and over analyze everything to the point were the have to find something wrong with him. Travis Lee and his awesome Def are missed :lol:
    Go Birds!!!!
  • Jearlpam0925
    Jearlpam0925 Deep South Philly Posts: 17,540
    I know what we should do......now get this....pretty awesome......trade Cole Hamels for Justin Upton, then trade for......wait for it..........


























    ZACK.DUKE. :thumbup:
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Funny part is here was my original Zach Duke comment from last year.

    Please no Sheets,Shields,Lilly. I'd be happy with Oswalt,Westbrook,Myers, Haren and i'm not even sure if he's on the block but Zach Duke.

    Love how you 2 twist shit around.
    Go Birds!!!!
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.

    They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.

    If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.

    That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).

    So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
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  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,934
    Ledbetterman10 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.

    They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.

    If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.

    That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).

    So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and until he becomes an over-paid freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.

    Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Ledbetterman10 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.

    They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.

    If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.

    That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).

    So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.
    Tied for the MLB lead in any category is good. 71 rbi's is pretty damn good with as the fixer says slop around him.
    Go Birds!!!!
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    pjhawks wrote:
    Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.

    And you said Ryan Howard could end up as good as Ted Williams.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    Ledbetterman10 wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    By the way - the Howard contract didn't seem to affect the team's spending this past offseason.

    They are obviously going all in now but they have $113 million committed to 9 players next year and that doesn't include Hamels or Rollins. Add $20-$30 million for Hamels/Rollins to that and you still need plenty of pieces. So yeah, the extra money they could have saved from Howard would be helpful.

    If they don't win this year, the outlook won't be as great.

    That's how I feel about Howard: if they don't win this year...then I'll worry. It's not like The Fixer doesn't make valid points against Howard and his contract, but to put it simply, I like the guy and want him on my team. Hell I remember watching him (and Victorino, Utley, etc) on the Scranton Wilkes-Barre Red Barons thinking "THIS could be something." And it became something: a world champion. And I owe a bit of gratitude to everyone on that 2008 team because it was far and away the greatest and most fun sports fan moment of my life (my other team is the Miami Dolphins so....yeah).

    So basically, if the team keeps winning, I don't care what his WAR or whatever is. If he strikes out chasing some 3-2 curve in the dirt with the bases-loaded but Halladay shuts everyone down and we win, I'm happy. Is he performing beneath the standard of his contract? Sure. But it's not like he's playing straight-up badly. He still contributes and unless he becomes a freeloader who is truly stealing money and not helping the team win, I want him as our guy.

    I hear you, man and I completely get where you are coming from. Shit, Jeter is stealing money from the Yanks and there is no one in the league I would rather have playing short in the Bronx. Different situations but I get where you are coming from.

    My whole point is that he isn't the player he is made out to be or getting paid to be. You probably think he is a bit better than I do but it seems like we are pretty much on the same page.
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,934
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.

    And you said Ryan Howard could end up as good as Ted Williams.

    well he is the fastest in history to 200 career home runs which is better than ted williams and babe ruth. thats a fact boys. maybe tex will get there someday but either way i'll volunteer to be yours and fixers designated driver to cooperstown for ryan's hall of fame induction in say oh 15 years or so. until then good luck to your yanks.
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    Phillies manager Charlie Manuel said that Placido Polanco was diagnosed with a bulging disc in his back.
    Polanco is out of the lineup for the fourth straight game Friday and could soon be headed for a trip to the disabled list. The veteran third baseman is batting just .216 since the start of May, so some time away might be the best thing for him.

    Dropping like flies!!
    Go Birds!!!!
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.

    And you said Ryan Howard could end up as good as Ted Williams.

    well he is the fastest in history to 200 career home runs which is better than ted williams and babe ruth. thats a fact boys. maybe tex will get there someday but either way i'll volunteer to be yours and fixers designated driver to cooperstown for ryan's hall of fame induction in say oh 15 years or so. until then good luck to your yanks.

    Hall of fame and Ryan Howard in the same sentence is pretty fucking hilarious.
  • jamminpearls
    jamminpearls Posts: 7,078
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:
    Fixer last year said we were better off with Ross Gload at 1st base than Ryan Howard. that pretty much stops all credibility he might have on the ryan howard argument.

    And you said Ryan Howard could end up as good as Ted Williams.

    well he is the fastest in history to 200 career home runs which is better than ted williams and babe ruth. thats a fact boys. maybe tex will get there someday but either way i'll volunteer to be yours and fixers designated driver to cooperstown for ryan's hall of fame induction in say oh 15 years or so. until then good luck to your yanks.
    Too late of a start to get into the HOF imo.
    Go Birds!!!!
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,934
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    Hall of fame and Ryan Howard in the same sentence is pretty fucking hilarious.

    you do realize if he keeps even close to the current pace he will easily reach 500 home runs right? he has 271 currently and will be in the 290 range by the end of this season. and there will either be a DH in NL by the time his career is over or he will end up in the AL so some team can try and cash in on it. in the after-the-steroid era in the area of 500 home runs is going to look massive compared to the previous era.
  • Johnny Abruzzo
    Johnny Abruzzo Philly Posts: 12,391
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Hall of fame and Ryan Howard in the same sentence is pretty fucking hilarious.

    If he has 6 or 7 more years kind of like his first 5 then he would be in the conversation. Even 15 years from now sportwriters are going to use traditional stats more than things like xFIP & WAR, especially since nobody can agree on a common definition of the geek stats. Of course, if your predicted downward trend happens than you can have a good laugh at us.
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  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,934
    Johnny Abruzzo wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    Hall of fame and Ryan Howard in the same sentence is pretty fucking hilarious.

    If he has 6 or 7 more years kind of like his first 5 then he would be in the conversation. Even 15 years from now sportwriters are going to use traditional stats more than things like xFIP & WAR, especially since nobody can agree on a common definition of the geek stats. Of course, if your predicted downward trend happens than you can have a good laugh at us.

    7 years after this year at 30 homers a year gets him to 500. 500 home runs would make him a stone cold lock. and if the Phils win another series or two (and i think they will) during his run as a star that will help the cause too.
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,029
    pjhawks wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:

    Hall of fame and Ryan Howard in the same sentence is pretty fucking hilarious.

    you do realize if he keeps even close to the current pace he will easily reach 500 home runs right? he has 271 currently and will be in the 290 range by the end of this season. and there will either be a DH in NL by the time his career is over or he will end up in the AL so some team can try and cash in it.

    Then elect him to the home run derby hall of fame. I don't give a shit about 500 home runs.
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