Should welfare recipiants have to do community service?

FiveB247x · February 2011

But you make the vast generalization that ALL the people are on these programs forever, abuse the system, never pay taxes or similar. That is completely untrue and inherently why your argument is incorrect.

Also, once again you make the misleading point that we can pick and choose which programs we collect taxes for which society pays for as a whole, and inject individual biases and implementation of it. We do not have line item veto of such things and certainly not of tax based programs for benefits and people in need.

Lastly, you just said senior citizens on medicare have paid into the system? Most women since the creation of this program (1965) have not worked and have not been part of the work force of our nation. So technically aren't most of the people on medicare now simply milking the system they didn't really contribute too? Atleast in your line of logic and rational, that is completely true. Do you agree they should get their coverage stopped or perhaps have to provide services (like community service) to pay back society?

HeidiJam wrote:

You seem to have a hard time understanding that they are receiving free money and not putting any into the system. Senior citizens for a majority have paid into the medicare system their whole lives. People on welfare don't pay tax, yet they receive all the same benefits of people who do. COmmunity Service is not a punishment. I see it as a way of paying your taxes (giving back to society). We all pay for all the services you listed, and we also all vote on the thing listed, so i don't see what your point is.

pandora · February 2011

inmytree wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Like title says, should people receiving welfare benefits be required to do community service? Think about it, no one is spending 40+ hours a week looking for jobs/work. What about requiring them to do 20-30 hours of community service a week given out by the local city. It would be a good way to give an incentive to find work. It could also save some tax payer money. Maybe some of those poor innercity areas would not look so bad if all the people on welfare were required to clean the areas up, maintain the playgrounds. What do you think?

if you included corporations who get public dollars via tax breaks and subsidies, then I'm all for it...

it really sounds like you're wanting a public works program, which is very FDR of you...

I wonder how those who are disabled, both physically and mentally, fit into your proposed public works program...

this was not directed at me but I have a thought to add...

I see your point
I believe you are looking at it as a punishment not an opportunity

I see many disabled people and the mentally challenged
enjoying their work in many public places.
They are happy to be involved in community, making their way.

I think in their cases they get what its all about
that working makes them appreciate life more and feel apart of
instead of isolated from society.

Who really doesn't want to work at something in life?

I feel there is a true positive here everyone is missing.

inmytree · February 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

inmytree wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

I think it would help those on welfare feel like they are contributing to society, give them something to do so they stay out of trouble, and with the experience they gain maybe they would be appealing to an employer. These are all positives... and yet many of you just want to keep perpetuating laziness and keep them at poverty level. Many of you see Community service as a punishment, yet I can only see good things come out of a progam like this, especially if they can start cleaning up the areas they live in.

how much would it cost to run and oversee this program...?

Who do you think keeps track of current volunteers? Or do they all just show up and do whatever they want? It could be as simple as a badge/id/sign in sheet at the place of community service commitment

huh...what are you talking about...?

you proposed something, act as if it's all simple, then type some gibberish...

how much do you think this program will actually cost...?

gimmesometruth27 · February 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how do you propose these poor and "minorities" pay for a college education when the cost of college is skyrocketing and they barely have neough money to pay rent and buy food and keep the lights on??? think about what you are saying, because if it was that easy everyone would do it. in 5 years they come out, maybe can't find a career immediately, yet they have that massive loan payement to start paying on 6 months after graduation.

by the way, hey republicans, it has been a few months since you got your mandate, where the fuck are the jobs??

Haven't you heard anybody can go to college, maybe try and major in something that has a good career and try to get a co-op. as for the loan issues Its a risk you have to take, and millions of people in the world are taking that risk. Are you of the opinion that if you are poor you should just try and stay poor because if you try and go to college on a loan, you might be in debt??? Thats promising...
And to your last statment, what are you 16? Keep playing the party war buddy, thats a great way to keep american people seperated.

sadly the situation you speak of is not the reality in the world. i am talking inner city poor people. the ones that never even finished high school. i am talking about rural poor people, sons and daughters of farmers who forsake education to work in the fields and need assistance to live. they will NOT get into any college because they do not have the basic foundation and requisite coursework before college. you ever see a 10th grade drop out get a sufficient score on an SAT or ACT?? i haven't...these are real issues. it is not as easy as you assume it is for joe blow dropout to walk into a university, get a loan, and get a degree. they might get a loan to cover tuition, but what about books? what about food? what about spending money to live on? a family on government asistance will not be able to afford this. it is not that easy...so are you telling me that a poor inner city child has the same opportunity as a suburban kid whose dad is a doctor or attorney or CEO? is that what you are expecting me to believe? are you asking me to accept that a kid with mental handicaps or physical handicaps has the same opportunities as the kid who doesn't? the fact is some people are born with more opportunities than others, and some are born with less. the fact also seems to be that from your posts you seem to hate entitlement programs and feel that because you do not need them then nobody else needs them. that is what i am reading from your posts. you seem to have a grudge against people who need government assistance and want to do everything you can to keep those that need it away from it. and that will not work in today's society.

so your point is now about millions of people across the world? i thought we were talking about the united states. if you are talking about the world then you are wrong there because higher education is funded, at least partially in other countries in the world. and no i am not of the opinion that if you are poor you should stay poor. i am a REALIST. i know how the world works, and you can not just apply the same standards to everyone because the world is not in black and white. my comment about republicans is that they usually think in black and white and fail to see the shades of gray and exceptions. no i'm not 16. i'm 35, come from a lower middle class family, have a masters degree plus 9 hours towards a phd, and a good career. i am the only one in my generation of grandkids to have a college degree. so yes, i made something of myself. but i had more opportunity than most of the poor and welfare kids i rode the school bus with. i was just applying the same logic that the tea party used for a year when demanding immediate results and solutions to problems..

inmytree · February 2011

pandora wrote:

inmytree wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Like title says, should people receiving welfare benefits be required to do community service? Think about it, no one is spending 40+ hours a week looking for jobs/work. What about requiring them to do 20-30 hours of community service a week given out by the local city. It would be a good way to give an incentive to find work. It could also save some tax payer money. Maybe some of those poor innercity areas would not look so bad if all the people on welfare were required to clean the areas up, maintain the playgrounds. What do you think?

if you included corporations who get public dollars via tax breaks and subsidies, then I'm all for it...

it really sounds like you're wanting a public works program, which is very FDR of you...

I wonder how those who are disabled, both physically and mentally, fit into your proposed public works program...

this was not directed at me but I have a thought to add...

I see your point
I believe you are looking at it as a punishment not an opportunity

I see many disabled people and the mentally challenged
enjoying their work in many public places.
They are happy to be involved in community, making their way.

I think in their cases they get what its all about
that working makes them appreciate life more and feel apart of
instead of isolated from society.

Who really doesn't want to work at something in life?

I feel there is a true positive here everyone is missing.

those many disabled and mentally challenged folks that you see, do they have supported employment workers standing by their side...? I bet yes...that service is not free...in fact, far from it...

pandora · February 2011

inmytree wrote:

pandora wrote:

this was not directed at me but I have a thought to add...

I see your point
I believe you are looking at it as a punishment not an opportunity

I see many disabled people and the mentally challenged
enjoying their work in many public places.
They are happy to be involved in community, making their way.

I think in their cases they get what its all about
that working makes them appreciate life more and feel apart of
instead of isolated from society.

Who really doesn't want to work at something in life?

I feel there is a true positive here everyone is missing.

those many disabled and mentally challenged folks that you see, do they have supported employment workers standing by their side...? I bet yes...that service is not free...in fact, far from it...

respectfully that wasn't my point and yes I know they receive compensation.

My point is it is better for the soul and spirit to be busy...this how we learn.

That work is enjoyment not a punishment.

This something the physically and mentally challenged have learned,
to be contributing to society builds character, gives life purpose.
It makes a person feel good to complete a challenge.

An idle mind and body is no favor we are doing for those on welfare.

Blockhead · February 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so your point is now about millions of people across the world? i thought we were talking about the united states. if you are talking about the world then you are wrong there because higher education is funded, at least partially in other countries in the world. and no i am not of the opinion that if you are poor you should stay poor. i am a REALIST. i know how the world works, and you can not just apply the same standards to everyone because the world is not in black and white. my comment about republicans is that they usually think in black and white and fail to see the shades of gray and exceptions. no i'm not 16. i'm 35, come from a lower middle class family, have a masters degree plus 9 hours towards a phd, and a good career. i am the only one in my generation of grandkids to have a college degree. so yes, i made something of myself. but i had more opportunity than most of the poor and welfare kids i rode the school bus with. i was just applying the same logic that the tea party used for a year when demanding immediate results and solutions to problems..

How do you figure you had more opportunity than most poor welfare kids to succeed? I am a realist, and I listen to my wifes stories everyday when she comes home because she works in an innercity school. These kids are raised on entitlment programs, and expect everything. My wifes school provides Breakfast, lunch, dinner for free. Clothes for free. And what do the kids say when they don't have a back pack or school supplies "my mom said the school is supposed to provide that". I have said it before in other threads but I bought the entire 6th grade their school supplies. I have gone on 2 series of house visits with my wife in the inner city. next time I go I should take pictures. These same parents that can't afford pencils/paper can afford 50" TV, Blue Ray, PS3, Leather couches, etc... You can go ahead and think that everybody on welfare is poor because they were never given a chance, but the opportunities are out there, its no ones fault if a kid does not apply himself in school. Its his fault.

Blockhead · February 2011

inmytree wrote:

Who do you think keeps track of current volunteers? Or do they all just show up and do whatever they want? It could be as simple as a badge/id/sign in sheet at the place of community service commitment

huh...what are you talking about...?

you proposed something, act as if it's all simple, then type some gibberish...

how much do you think this program will actually cost...?[/quote]
Like I said before how would it work any differently than current volunteer programs. It seems pretty simple to me. I don't see where the confusion is, what are you have a hard time understanding?

Blockhead · February 2011

FiveB247x wrote:

Also, once again you make the misleading point that we can pick and choose which programs we collect taxes for which society pays for as a whole, and inject individual biases and implementation of it. We do not have line item veto of such things and certainly not of tax based programs for benefits and people in need.

Lastly, you just said senior citizens on medicare have paid into the system? Most women since the creation of this program (1965) have not worked and have not been part of the work force of our nation. So technically aren't most of the people on medicare now simply milking the system they didn't really contribute too? Atleast in your line of logic and rational, that is completely true. Do you agree they should get their coverage stopped or perhaps have to provide services (like community service) to pay back society?

I never said we can pick and choose which programs collect taxes. We do vote on items do we not?
And again you keep missing the point. People on welfare are GIVEN Gov. money without putting anything into the system. Housewives of 50 years ago did not receive a gov. check weekly and were not given food/clothes/houses/. You can't really compare a woman's role in a different era to a welfare recipients. Woman's roles were different back then and still gave back to society by raising their kids as a full time job.

Jason P · February 2011

I think the "Drug Testing" for food stamps would be easier to implement then forcing a community service program.

FiveB247x · February 2011

This is a clear case of picking and choosing what programs need people to jump through hoops either before or afterward in order to receive benefits. And people pay taxes whether it's state tax, federal taxes or the many others. I am not "missing the point" here, you seem to ignore the key fact that you think there's some large looming group of people adding nothing to society and continually sucking up tax payers dollars. These types of programs do need reform to adjust for corruption and length, but to generalize them how you do is drastically misguided as is the services. And to attempt to say they owe us anything is no different from asking any other member of our society to pay back in some fashion with services. If your argument is about cleaning up communities through service, look at the guilty in jail. If your argument is about saving tax payer funds, there's tons of more widely abused and misappropriated funds in defense programs, lowering of corporate tax levels or tax codes for the rich (just to name a few). Your suggestion is a misguided answer and representation of facts and like many things in our nation, we love to point the finger at a simplistic and easily target to blame and scapegoat as a cause to a problem. It's easy to digest and repeat compared to doing detailed analysis of why things are the way they are.

HeidiJam wrote:

I never said we can pick and choose which programs collect taxes. We do vote on items do we not?
And again you keep missing the point. People on welfare are GIVEN Gov. money without putting anything into the system. Housewives of 50 years ago did not receive a gov. check weekly and were not given food/clothes/houses/. You can't really compare a woman's role in a different era to a welfare recipients. Woman's roles were different back then and still gave back to society by raising their kids as a full time job.

JonnyPistachio · February 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

THey sure as hell do OWE society as society is paying/making it able for them to live thier lives. Welfare puts food/housing/clothes to people who pay no taxes and continually destroy once nice neighborhoods. Look at the stats 20% are on welfare for over 5 years. That is a college career. People seem oblivious to the fact that nothing other than themselves(sadly maybe some disabiliites) is stoping them from reaching success. Colleges now lower the admission standard for minorities.

I assume you were being sarcastic here^^, or just talking about the very narrow personal experiences you have encountered in your city?

HeidiJam wrote:

How do you figure you had more opportunity than most poor welfare kids to succeed? I am a realist, and I listen to my wifes stories everyday when she comes home because she works in an innercity school. These kids are raised on entitlment programs, and expect everything. My wifes school provides Breakfast, lunch, dinner for free. Clothes for free. And what do the kids say when they don't have a back pack or school supplies "my mom said the school is supposed to provide that". I have said it before in other threads but I bought the entire 6th grade their school supplies. I have gone on 2 series of house visits with my wife in the inner city. next time I go I should take pictures. These same parents that can't afford pencils/paper can afford 50" TV, Blue Ray, PS3, Leather couches, etc... You can go ahead and think that everybody on welfare is poor because they were never given a chance, but the opportunities are out there, its no ones fault if a kid does not apply himself in school. Its his fault.

Seriously? You're kidding right? You dont think role models exist do you?
Your examples of poor families with 50 inch TVs and leather couches are not the norm btw of welfare recepients just because you've seen it once or twice.

gimmesometruth27 · February 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

How do you figure you had more opportunity than most poor welfare kids to succeed? I am a realist, and I listen to my wifes stories everyday when she comes home because she works in an innercity school. These kids are raised on entitlment programs, and expect everything. My wifes school provides Breakfast, lunch, dinner for free. Clothes for free. And what do the kids say when they don't have a back pack or school supplies "my mom said the school is supposed to provide that". I have said it before in other threads but I bought the entire 6th grade their school supplies. I have gone on 2 series of house visits with my wife in the inner city. next time I go I should take pictures. These same parents that can't afford pencils/paper can afford 50" TV, Blue Ray, PS3, Leather couches, etc... You can go ahead and think that everybody on welfare is poor because they were never given a chance, but the opportunities are out there, its no ones fault if a kid does not apply himself in school. Its his fault.

i had more opportunities than the kids on my bus route because i
1. had 2 parents
2, had 2 parents working.
3. was not on government assistance.

so i immediately had an advantage over my friends who lived with a single mom and 3 kids and no adult male in their life to help pay for things or be a father figure. they had to live on a single income and were on government assistance. they were born into that situation. real life is not like the fucking "blind side" movie where sports is a means to get out of poverty. those situations are the extreme exception to the reality. you call yourself a relaist but you have only seen it from your wife's experiences in one city. i have worked in three large metropolitan areas and poverty, housing projects, and lack of opportunity is the same everywhere in general, but places like detroit are worse and have had an economy in the crapper for years now. yes, some kids are raised on entitlement programs, but it is laughable for you to assume that most kids are because of your limited experience on your 2 house visits. i can assure you that the people i have seen can not pay the gas bill to keep the heat on, or they can't pay the eletric bill to even turn on that 50" tv you think they might have. there is no debating with you. nobody said that the kid is not to blame for failing in school. the society and community fails that kid. we need to look at the causes of poverty before we can propose any solutions. that would be like trying to cure cancer without knowing what causes it or how the tumors grow. it is not as easy as you say it is. and i think it is a mistake to put all people on gov't assistance to work doing community service 30 hours a week for the meager benefits that they get. averaged out over a year they would be doing shitty work for less than minimum wage.

i am still waiting to hear from you how a kid in the ghetto has the same opportunity as the suburban son of an attorney. the former is condemned to attend a shitty inner city school where there is no funding for things like essential or extracurricular programs, teachers are undeerpaid so as a result are apathetic, school board members are corrupt, and excellence is not exactly encouraged, while the latter goes to a comfortably middle class school that has no lack of funding, higher teacher salaries, and many extracurrlcular activities to keep kids engaged and for the most part encouraged and less apt to get into trouble. you tell me both examples have the same opportunities to have success...

FiveB247x · February 2011

gimmesometruth27 - this discussion could all be boiled down to one very misguided point... people who have nothing or need assistance are there because they're lazy or don't do what they're supposed too or deserve their situation or need to pull themselves up by the boot straps. It's such a lazy, idiotic and unenlightened opinion, which basically is probably a half a step about racism on the ignorance scale. Educate yourself to the details, facts and causes of problems, then talk about blame or ways to change it.. not simply scapegoat based on bias, generalizations and half-truthes.. which is what most people in our society do. It's just easier and simpler.

cincybearcat · February 2011

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

your wonderful proposed solution does not take into account the working poor, the laid off, the disabled and handicapped, the single moms getting assistance to buy food for their kids, etc. the argument people are saying now is that the parent/parents being out of the house working and making enough to barely pay the rent and keep the lights on can not be a good parent or example for their children because they are gone too much,. ever see that part of fahrenheit 9/11? now are you proposing taking these same people out of the household for another 20-30 hours a week on top of what they are already working??? good luck with that. watch the crime rate and juvenile delenquency skyrocket then. then people will complain because cities are now taking cops off of the streets due to budget cuts, but that is another issue for another thread....

sure some people scam the system, but most of the people i see in my office that are below the poverty line getting assistance are working poor or laid off, or disabled. this proposed solution does not take into account how they got poor to begin with. were they born into it? were they comfortable middle class and bankrupted by an unexpected medical expense that was denied coverage by insurance? were they made disabled and unable to work? or were they irresponsible with credit cards and financially ruined that way? were they caught up in a shitty ARM that reset and made them lose everything? every situation is different and you can not paint with a broad brush and mandate anything like this. your proposed solution only looks at the ends, and in no way takes into account the things that cause people to become dependent on the government. unless you do that, no amount of overzealous rule making or kicking people off of assistance is going to change anything. i dare you to go about mandating community service or cutting aid to these people. it will only increase problems. the money you save denying benefits had better be used to have more police on the streets, as crime will definitely increase.

You do realize you could train some of them to operate a daycare or an after school program, etc?

cincybearcat · February 2011

inmytree wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Like title says, should people receiving welfare benefits be required to do community service? Think about it, no one is spending 40+ hours a week looking for jobs/work. What about requiring them to do 20-30 hours of community service a week given out by the local city. It would be a good way to give an incentive to find work. It could also save some tax payer money. Maybe some of those poor innercity areas would not look so bad if all the people on welfare were required to clean the areas up, maintain the playgrounds. What do you think?

if you included corporations who get public dollars via tax breaks and subsidies, then I'm all for it...

it really sounds like you're wanting a public works program, which is very FDR of you...

I wonder how those who are disabled, both physically and mentally, fit into your proposed public works program...

Pretty sure most of the disabled people would find it pretty offensive that you seem to think they can't do anything.

cincybearcat · February 2011

Exactly why is the question asked (the title of the thread) so ridiculous to some of you here?

Jeanwah · February 2011

pandora wrote:

My point is it is better for the soul and spirit to be busy...this how we learn.

That work is enjoyment not a punishment.

This something the physically and mentally challenged have learned,
to be contributing to society builds character, gives life purpose.
It makes a person feel good to complete a challenge.

An idle mind and body is no favor we are doing for those on welfare.

There is proof that happiness comes from helping others, as well as helping a greater cause.
For anyone to shoot down volunteerism for the sake of free govt handouts is nuts!
How easy it is to forget that our very nature is to nurture and take care of each other. Not to mention, that through volunteerism, job opportunities arise, you meet new friends, and you learn empathy.

pandora · February 2011

cincybearcat wrote:

Exactly why is the question asked (the title of the thread) so ridiculous to some of you here?

I think some hear think the govt would be doing them an injustice
requiring the able bodied recipient to perform community service
when in fact it would help build a better character,
a happier more satisfied individual and a better society all round.

As I mentioned earlier

An idle mind and body is no favor we are doing for those on welfare

in my opinion

Jeanwah · February 2011

cincybearcat wrote:

Exactly why is the question asked (the title of the thread) so ridiculous to some of you here?

I agree; I'm :shock:ed that people would jump to the defense rather than actually provide a bit of help towards their communities.

Should welfare recipiants have to do community service?

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