Respectfully we were speaking of welfare not unemployment benefits and those who are able bodied receiving a monthly welfare check can give back to their communities by doing community service.
but trying to find a job is often a full time job in itself! What's the difference between welfare and unemployment? It's easy to judge somebody you don't know and say what they can and can't do when the reality is sometimes quite different! :oops:
I guess the problem is that in de facto a lot of people who should be looking for jobs aren't. :?
This by no means represents ALL of the people on welfare, but its a definite reality that there are those who simply don't try (or are working under the table while still getting welfare benefits)
My father lost his job roughly a year ago and went on EI (different from welfare). Lucky he had the means to find a new one and eventually start his own restaurant. I know of another person who refuses to look for work, however, and remain in government assistance. I'd argue that this is in part the culture difference, where the person refusing to work has grown up in a demographic that's, let's say, accustomed to receiving welfare, my dad has been raised to work hard (and being Japanese probably has some shame in not working). And then there is also a third example of someone I know who is on government assistance but literally has no choice to do so because no one will hire her in her poor health (due to a previous job she had involving chemicals).
The welfare issue is very complex and I think is difficult to solve... In order to motivate (or punish - depending on how you look at it i guess) those who are abusing the system you inevitably are going to hurt those who seriously need to depend on it. Like any system which is taken advantage of I guess!
Like title says, should people receiving welfare benefits be required to do community service? Think about it, no one is spending 40+ hours a week looking for jobs/work. What about requiring them to do 20-30 hours of community service a week given out by the local city. It would be a good way to give an incentive to find work. It could also save some tax payer money. Maybe some of those poor innercity areas would not look so bad if all the people on welfare were required to clean the areas up, maintain the playgrounds. What do you think?
I think community service would do them some good. However, the single moms out there are already busy and stressed out as it is raising kids on welfare, and 20-30 hrs would be a bit much for them I think. Maybe 10-20 hrs would be a better starting point for them?
I admire the way the system has enabled welfare kids to have free daycare and health care so that their moms have less stress. However, I have also witnessed firsthand, how some of these moms take it for granted.
Its nice that the system is there to help these kids get off to a good start, but it also tends to cloud the mom's sense of reality and cost of living.
[quote="pickupyourwillI think community service would do them some good. However, the single moms out there are already busy and stressed out as it is raising kids on welfare, and 20-30 hrs would be a bit much for them I think. Maybe 10-20 hrs would be a better starting point for them?
I admire the way the system has enabled welfare kids to have free daycare and health care so that their moms have less stress. However, I have also witnessed firsthand, how some of these moms take it for granted.
Its nice that the system is there to help these kids get off to a good start, but it also tends to cloud the mom's sense of reality and cost of living.[/quote]
Over here we have parenting payment from the govt, there is partnered and single. It is means tested, and depending on your level of payment, you also recieve a certain amount of free and subsidised chidcare hrs. I recieve the single, but it is only until ly son turns 7yo. During the time I have recieved this payment, I have either worked (paid and voluntary) or studied, and it has only been there to supplement my income when it is low. I get annoyed when I see other people complaining that they don't get enough payment, or that once thier children are over the age to which the payment ceases, they go onto another payment but are required to spend certain amount of time looking for jobs, studying etc and they have to report thier activities. I am also lucky enough to have a great supportive family who help me out and give my son a solid foundation and instill in him the importance of work and helping yourself to achieve.
Many people who are generational welfare recipients, just don't have this grounding or ethical standard to which they live by. They have been brought up on a handout, and see that as the only to live. Then you have the ones who say, " I want better than this for my life" and they get up off thier arses and do something for themselves and get oss the welfare paymments.
Back to the original question though....everyones situation is different and you can't bundle up every person who recieves a govt payment and put them in the same category.
I also think until you have been in a situation where you have had to rely on a govt payment you really cannot judge those who do.
I also think until you have been in a situation where you have had to rely on a govt payment you really cannot judge those who do.
I admire and somewhat agree with everything you wrote before this. But this statement burned me a little, however. Although, I have not technically been in this situation, I have several times been VERY VERY close. I cannot stress that enough--both when my son was born and just within the last month if the situation of divorce arose between my husband and I.
Perhaps I need to start a whole new thread altogether because I have alot to say on this subject and do not want to "hijack" someone else's post with all my schpeel.
I realize that I cannot generalize everyone on welfare. Each situation is different.
In a nutshell, all I'm trying to say is that we could learn a heck of a lot from our grandparents' generation during the Great Depression--families had to move back into the original family house, sisters and brothers had to pull together to make it through--because their was no welfare back then. They took personal responsibility to get themselves out of the financial troubles they were in.
And then, decades later, welfare was started, because those families remembered damn well how hard it was to make it through those hard times--and how nice it would have been to have some gov't assistance there. It was such a simple, kind, well-intentioned program that has now been used and abused by too many people. Many are way too quick to get that assistance--sure they don't want to, and their pride always gets in the way, but they do it anyway.
Everyone has some hours a week to help others or help the community in general.
Does everyone want to? No.
Whether on aid or not it builds a connection to others and after, makes one feel good about their community.
There is personal pride in accomplishing what you don't want to do.
We learned that as kids and its a feel good character builder.
If some one on aid is idle and abled bodied they can give back to their community,
why shouldn't they?
In my opinion we are doing no one a favor giving them
free money to live when they are able to help the community.
And for those who pay for the welfare checks it is frustrating to think nothing is required of the recipient.
So let me get this straight... 74% of the people not doing anything wrong have to work some sort of community service because YOU are fed up with the 26%? And I'm just going by your figures here (who knows the validity of them). And you also are now in the business of telling people how many kids they can how based on income or some other secondary and arbitrary figures? Where do you get off with this stuff? Seriously. You don't seem to recognize the fact that your blaming the people (as a whole) compared to asking for reform which is necessary to fix the problems. Why punish people who are not guilty? Why not force the government to make changes and reform rather than punish 74% of innocent people? Seems very off base to say the least. If I came up with some other area in society in which 3/4ths of people were not guilty but should be forced to do things because of the bad 1/4th, I think we'd all say that's wrong. You seem to think it's ok for some odd reason?]
Again, why do you see it as punishment? Community service does not revolve around picking up trash. We should be in the business of telling people how many kids they can have if they are being supported by everyone else................... There is no positive in a situation of a child being born to a family that can't take care of it. Do you tell your children how many pets they can have or let them get whatever they want. I am trying to wrap my head around the logic some of you people have here. You guys are all about making life fair and equal for everybody and yet you condone people having kids that they can not provide the most simple of needs (food/clothing/shelter) and children that will have no future. And again its not 74% innocent people, they could just as well be milking the system also, its just 20% are on it for over 5 years, and 26% from 2-5 years.
What a statement, full of compassion for your fellow human being.
I have to always laugh when reading the contradictions in your lunacy. You believe, based purely on your own assumptions, that a full over haul of the welfare system is in order, due some abuse? hmmmmm, let me draw some parrallels - Beck style, so you can follow along (may aswell stick to what you know right?)
You want tighter regualtions on the welfare system right?, well more like the abolishment of it, but we'll stick with the tighter control argument for the minute. So welfare recepeits should be all out on the street picking up after your fat ass, and should you emerge from your homestead, that they bow in honur as you walk past?
I garauntee you that the money that is being scammed is a drop in the ocean compared to what the banks have taken from you and your neighbourhoods, why not the scathing, irrational, fearful, fire and brimstone for them?? The money being thrown into these never ending wars is the Goliath in comparrison to the savings that may be generated from your gulagesk plan.
Civil liberties be damned if you are poor my friend - however - if you own a gun (well yeee haw( that's a different matter entirely. Kids getting shot by their parents guns - fuck em, rampant school shootings - fuck em - mentally unstable people may be able to by guns and go on killing sprees, but hey - small price to pay for liberty and freedom Regulation - NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why should I, as a gun owner be punished by those that shoot up the place. No to regulations as they would impact everyone.
So if I have this straight - if you are poor: fuck you, shut up and keep out of sight (atleast till the sun goes down, clean up the place then), if you are not poor: fuck them, eat and eat and eat, watch cable television, pick your nose, shoot your gun and talk about the good ol days, where some people knew their place in society.
You sir are an ass
P.s: your later comment about kids in poor schools not being able to read got me a bit of a chuckle, not because I find lack of literacy skills amusing, but because, when reading some of your jibberish, I wonder not about your ability to read, but the level with which you can. Given that your wife is a teacher, you might want to take advantage of some of her experience before assuming that it is only the poor that are willfully ignorant.
Everyone has some hours a week to help others or help the community in general.
Whether on aid or not it builds a connection to others and after, makes one feel good about their community.
There is personal pride in accomplishing what you don't want to do.
We learned that as kids and its a feel good character builder.
I whole-heartedly agree. Volunteering for others and the community lets you think about others rather than yourself. I personally know of some welfare recipients who are too caught up in their own lives and could benefit from witnessing the troubles of others. I think it helps people realize that you're not off any worse than someone else--that everyone is going through something--and that we're all in this together.
What a statement, full of compassion for your fellow human being.
I have to always laugh when reading the contradictions in your lunacy.
Try not to get so emotional next time (personal insults). Hopefully you can make a logical and reasonable argument...
As to the first sentence you wrote, you see no contradictions that the program is FORCING me to give my money to a program that provides for only a select group of people who don't provide or give back to any program?
Taking my money is much more of a punishment than any community service. Have you ever been to the inner city, If you have would you want to raise your children there? Do you think those communitys could use some community service?
We should be in the business of telling people how many kids they can have if they are being supported by everyone else................... There is no positive in a situation of a child being born to a family that can't take care of it. Do you tell your children how many pets they can have or let them get whatever they want. I am trying to wrap my head around the logic some of you people have here. You guys are all about making life fair and equal for everybody and yet you condone people having kids that they can not provide the most simple of needs (food/clothing/shelter) and children that will have no future.
I'm sure you've called your representatives in Congress to oppose this then?
Heidi, you keep repeating "my money"... how much of your tax money goes to welfare? I'm sure if you did the research, you'd see a very small percentage of taxes you specifically pay goes to it in comparison to other tax programs (whether local, state of federal). Also, still waiting for you to comment about how people "never" contribute to the system?
Lastly, we all can agree that community service and volunteering is a good thing. But why should any citizen be forced to do this simply because some of you think it will help people doing it? A bit condescending and judgmental to say the least. When someone can explain what connection there is between needing welfare assistance and growing as a human being in comparison or in greater scope, the rest of the American citizenship, I'd be more than welcome to hear that. Our society as a whole is full of selfish, uncaring people, and the vast majority of them work aren't on welfare or similar. So maybe trying to dictate something upon a very small minority is the wrong way to try and address the problem.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I agree, you shouldn't get so personal mate, that's really not necessary. I did conservation work when I was briefly out of work and still hadn't got any money from the Government. I did it because I wanted to feel like I was contributing and I didn't want to fall into a slump. It doesn't hurt for people who don't work, are able-bodied and who are not busy with kids to help out even a little bit. I mean, what is the problem here? Is it just all too hard or what? Just sounds like a bunch of excuses. And no, I am by no means rich! I own my home but only because I have worked damn hard for it and I would hardly call it a stately manor!
What a statement, full of compassion for your fellow human being.
I have to always laugh when reading the contradictions in your lunacy.
Try not to get so emotional next time (personal insults). Hopefully you can make a logical and reasonable argument...
As to the first sentence you wrote, you see no contradictions that the program is FORCING me to give my money to a program that provides for only a select group of people who don't provide or give back to any program?
Taking my money is much more of a punishment than any community service. Have you ever been to the inner city, If you have would you want to raise your children there? Do you think those communitys could use some community service?
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Adelaide BIG DAY OUT 2014
I didn't read through this entire thread cuz i already know it would just be upsetting and angering....but I do want to say, if it hasn't been said already, that in NJ and PA at least, all welfare recipients that are not physically or mentally disabled or do not have infants at home, ARE required to attend an all day every day 5 days a week job search seminar among other things. Whether or not its effective I can't say, but there it is.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I didn't read through this entire thread cuz i already know it would just be upsetting and angering....but I do want to say, if it hasn't been said already, that in NJ and PA at least, all welfare recipients that are not physically or mentally disabled or do not have infants at home, ARE required to attend an all day every day 5 days a week job search seminar among other things. Whether or not its effective I can't say, but there it is.
Fantastic Idea!!!!!
Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
I didn't read through this entire thread cuz i already know it would just be upsetting and angering....but I do want to say, if it hasn't been said already, that in NJ and PA at least, all welfare recipients that are not physically or mentally disabled or do not have infants at home, ARE required to attend an all day every day 5 days a week job search seminar among other things. Whether or not its effective I can't say, but there it is.
I live in Jersey, I was not aware of this. Excellent.
Why should anyone who does not have a job be able to sit home and collect money unless they are injured?
They should do what I would do....get off your ass and find a job.
Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
I didn't read through this entire thread cuz i already know it would just be upsetting and angering....but I do want to say, if it hasn't been said already, that in NJ and PA at least, all welfare recipients that are not physically or mentally disabled or do not have infants at home, ARE required to attend an all day every day 5 days a week job search seminar among other things. Whether or not its effective I can't say, but there it is.
I live in Jersey, I was not aware of this. Excellent.
Why should anyone who does not have a job be able to sit home and collect money unless they are injured?
They should do what I would do....get off your ass and find a job.
yep...i was lived and worked in jersey most of my life (recently moved to pa) and i know a couple of pppl who had to do this. matter of fact, when a job is obtained via the job search "class" for lack of a better word, the new employer gets a tax break equal to a full 50% off the welfare to work recipient's first year's salary. i've seen the letters that go out with the applications. pretty good idea, right? this was a couple of years back, but i don't imagine its changed.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Comments
I guess the problem is that in de facto a lot of people who should be looking for jobs aren't. :?
This by no means represents ALL of the people on welfare, but its a definite reality that there are those who simply don't try (or are working under the table while still getting welfare benefits)
My father lost his job roughly a year ago and went on EI (different from welfare). Lucky he had the means to find a new one and eventually start his own restaurant. I know of another person who refuses to look for work, however, and remain in government assistance. I'd argue that this is in part the culture difference, where the person refusing to work has grown up in a demographic that's, let's say, accustomed to receiving welfare, my dad has been raised to work hard (and being Japanese probably has some shame in not working). And then there is also a third example of someone I know who is on government assistance but literally has no choice to do so because no one will hire her in her poor health (due to a previous job she had involving chemicals).
The welfare issue is very complex and I think is difficult to solve... In order to motivate (or punish - depending on how you look at it i guess) those who are abusing the system you inevitably are going to hurt those who seriously need to depend on it. Like any system which is taken advantage of I guess!
It's definitely a tough issue :?
I think community service would do them some good. However, the single moms out there are already busy and stressed out as it is raising kids on welfare, and 20-30 hrs would be a bit much for them I think. Maybe 10-20 hrs would be a better starting point for them?
I admire the way the system has enabled welfare kids to have free daycare and health care so that their moms have less stress. However, I have also witnessed firsthand, how some of these moms take it for granted.
Its nice that the system is there to help these kids get off to a good start, but it also tends to cloud the mom's sense of reality and cost of living.
I admire the way the system has enabled welfare kids to have free daycare and health care so that their moms have less stress. However, I have also witnessed firsthand, how some of these moms take it for granted.
Its nice that the system is there to help these kids get off to a good start, but it also tends to cloud the mom's sense of reality and cost of living.[/quote]
Over here we have parenting payment from the govt, there is partnered and single. It is means tested, and depending on your level of payment, you also recieve a certain amount of free and subsidised chidcare hrs. I recieve the single, but it is only until ly son turns 7yo. During the time I have recieved this payment, I have either worked (paid and voluntary) or studied, and it has only been there to supplement my income when it is low. I get annoyed when I see other people complaining that they don't get enough payment, or that once thier children are over the age to which the payment ceases, they go onto another payment but are required to spend certain amount of time looking for jobs, studying etc and they have to report thier activities. I am also lucky enough to have a great supportive family who help me out and give my son a solid foundation and instill in him the importance of work and helping yourself to achieve.
Many people who are generational welfare recipients, just don't have this grounding or ethical standard to which they live by. They have been brought up on a handout, and see that as the only to live. Then you have the ones who say, " I want better than this for my life" and they get up off thier arses and do something for themselves and get oss the welfare paymments.
Back to the original question though....everyones situation is different and you can't bundle up every person who recieves a govt payment and put them in the same category.
I also think until you have been in a situation where you have had to rely on a govt payment you really cannot judge those who do.
I admire and somewhat agree with everything you wrote before this. But this statement burned me a little, however. Although, I have not technically been in this situation, I have several times been VERY VERY close. I cannot stress that enough--both when my son was born and just within the last month if the situation of divorce arose between my husband and I.
Perhaps I need to start a whole new thread altogether because I have alot to say on this subject and do not want to "hijack" someone else's post with all my schpeel.
I realize that I cannot generalize everyone on welfare. Each situation is different.
In a nutshell, all I'm trying to say is that we could learn a heck of a lot from our grandparents' generation during the Great Depression--families had to move back into the original family house, sisters and brothers had to pull together to make it through--because their was no welfare back then. They took personal responsibility to get themselves out of the financial troubles they were in.
And then, decades later, welfare was started, because those families remembered damn well how hard it was to make it through those hard times--and how nice it would have been to have some gov't assistance there. It was such a simple, kind, well-intentioned program that has now been used and abused by too many people. Many are way too quick to get that assistance--sure they don't want to, and their pride always gets in the way, but they do it anyway.
Does everyone want to? No.
Whether on aid or not it builds a connection to others and after, makes one feel good about their community.
There is personal pride in accomplishing what you don't want to do.
We learned that as kids and its a feel good character builder.
If some one on aid is idle and abled bodied they can give back to their community,
why shouldn't they?
In my opinion we are doing no one a favor giving them
free money to live when they are able to help the community.
And for those who pay for the welfare checks it is frustrating to think nothing is required of the recipient.
What a statement, full of compassion for your fellow human being.
I have to always laugh when reading the contradictions in your lunacy. You believe, based purely on your own assumptions, that a full over haul of the welfare system is in order, due some abuse? hmmmmm, let me draw some parrallels - Beck style, so you can follow along (may aswell stick to what you know right?)
You want tighter regualtions on the welfare system right?, well more like the abolishment of it, but we'll stick with the tighter control argument for the minute. So welfare recepeits should be all out on the street picking up after your fat ass, and should you emerge from your homestead, that they bow in honur as you walk past?
I garauntee you that the money that is being scammed is a drop in the ocean compared to what the banks have taken from you and your neighbourhoods, why not the scathing, irrational, fearful, fire and brimstone for them?? The money being thrown into these never ending wars is the Goliath in comparrison to the savings that may be generated from your gulagesk plan.
Civil liberties be damned if you are poor my friend - however - if you own a gun (well yeee haw( that's a different matter entirely. Kids getting shot by their parents guns - fuck em, rampant school shootings - fuck em - mentally unstable people may be able to by guns and go on killing sprees, but hey - small price to pay for liberty and freedom Regulation - NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why should I, as a gun owner be punished by those that shoot up the place. No to regulations as they would impact everyone.
So if I have this straight - if you are poor: fuck you, shut up and keep out of sight (atleast till the sun goes down, clean up the place then), if you are not poor: fuck them, eat and eat and eat, watch cable television, pick your nose, shoot your gun and talk about the good ol days, where some people knew their place in society.
You sir are an ass
P.s: your later comment about kids in poor schools not being able to read got me a bit of a chuckle, not because I find lack of literacy skills amusing, but because, when reading some of your jibberish, I wonder not about your ability to read, but the level with which you can. Given that your wife is a teacher, you might want to take advantage of some of her experience before assuming that it is only the poor that are willfully ignorant.
As to the first sentence you wrote, you see no contradictions that the program is FORCING me to give my money to a program that provides for only a select group of people who don't provide or give back to any program?
Taking my money is much more of a punishment than any community service. Have you ever been to the inner city, If you have would you want to raise your children there? Do you think those communitys could use some community service?
I'm sure you've called your representatives in Congress to oppose this then?
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=149569
Lastly, we all can agree that community service and volunteering is a good thing. But why should any citizen be forced to do this simply because some of you think it will help people doing it? A bit condescending and judgmental to say the least. When someone can explain what connection there is between needing welfare assistance and growing as a human being in comparison or in greater scope, the rest of the American citizenship, I'd be more than welcome to hear that. Our society as a whole is full of selfish, uncaring people, and the vast majority of them work aren't on welfare or similar. So maybe trying to dictate something upon a very small minority is the wrong way to try and address the problem.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Adelaide 1998
Adelaide 2003
Adelaide 2006 night 1
Adelaide 2006 night 2
Adelaide 2009
Melbourne 2009
Christchurch NZ 2009
Eddie Vedder, Adelaide 2011
PJ20 USA 2011 night 1
PJ20 USA 2011 night 2
Adelaide BIG DAY OUT 2014
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
Why should anyone who does not have a job be able to sit home and collect money unless they are injured?
They should do what I would do....get off your ass and find a job.
Sweep the Leg Johnny.
yep...i was lived and worked in jersey most of my life (recently moved to pa) and i know a couple of pppl who had to do this. matter of fact, when a job is obtained via the job search "class" for lack of a better word, the new employer gets a tax break equal to a full 50% off the welfare to work recipient's first year's salary. i've seen the letters that go out with the applications. pretty good idea, right? this was a couple of years back, but i don't imagine its changed.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~