13 year-old could get life in prison???

wolfamongwolves wrote:

inmytree wrote:

it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...

For the reasons I've already mentioned, and that redrock just elaborated on, whether or not a child shows remorse cannot be a legitimate criterion for whether he - or any child - should be tried as an adult. All that shows is what I have been saying all along - the reasoning that underpins the legal system is dysfunctional.

inmytree wrote:

I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...

Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.

But that's just me.

tell us how to fix the dysfunctional system you seem to know so much about...I'm curious...

I do find it amusing that you claim others are emotional about this and that you are not...for me, I'm basing my stance on experience and what I've read on the case...

as for the subjective speculation you complain of...the burger king comment was in response to someones subjective speculation...no one knows how this kid will end up...you don't and I don't...

perhaps we can have the nature vs nurture discussion another day..."some folks are born to be in prison" vs. "oh that poor little one was turned into a monster by is parents"...personally, I think everything is a combination of nature and nurture...

anyway, I'm still curious why we don't have more 11 year olds killing people....you know, since they brains are not yet developed...no one seems to want to touch that point...folks only want to blame the "system"...

anyhoo...it's been fun...take care...

There is definitely a problem with the judicial system of a 'civilised' country that tries children as adults in adult courts with life sentences and no chance of rehabilitation.

Just as a reminder:
"Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18."

eyedclaar wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.

But that's just me.

I wasn’t outraged and my reasoning isn’t clouded. It was a joke… sort of. I like the idea of bears eating people, but that’s just me. I like bears and I don’t like people. My comment was based on my suspicion that this kid is acutely sick in the head and counseling and rehab won’t really change that. It’s like expecting a person born with one arm to suddenly grow another just because they went to counseling. When I was sent to a counselor for criminal behavior, I said exactly what they wanted to hear until I was basically excused with a clean bill of mental health. Meanwhile, I was still as violent and dangerous as ever. True psychos are master liars. This kid doesn’t even have the wherewithal to fake empathy or remorse, so maybe we should learn something from his honesty and realize just how sick he is upstairs. Something is certainly missing, or is woefully underdeveloped, but in my opinion, it probably isn’t something he will develop as he ages. Or, he might just learn to keep his feelings, or lack thereof, to himself and start smiling like a normal person. That’s basically what I do, but I promise you don’t ever want to push me, as I can become downright unreasonable in a split second. I may have learned to control myself better than when I was young, but the crazies are still floating around up there. I guess I’m fortunate that I never killed anyone, but if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have expected a bunch of people to come out of the woodwork making excuses for me.
Also, do you not remember being 13? I do and I had no delusions about what guns are capable of. This kid had his own shotgun, designed especially for his age, I guarantee he had used it before and knew full well what the end result would look like, but he did it anyway. Again, I’m not saying he should be tried as an adult; he should be treated as insanely dangerous. Now, that’s just my initial thoughts on the subject based on what little information I have at my disposal.
Also, I know I’d rather be eaten by a bear than spend my life in prison, or the crazy house, or even doped up on synthetic mood altering drugs. So, what’s good for the goose…

is anyone else excited about what happens to the goose in this story? i for one cannot wait!!!

inmytree wrote:

you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...

true, but it's not a baseless assumption. i have friends and family who have spent time in the juvenile correction system and say what little "counseling" there is was a joke.

inmytree wrote:

I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...

and let's not forget that it was you who first assumed he was getting "more counseling than 1000 people receive in a lifetime," which fits your narrative. don't act like i'm the only one with a presupposition.

inmytree wrote:

and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...

again i ask, does acting out an adult action make you an adult? does punching a ballot make you mature enough to do so? does having sex at 14 make you mature enough to handle the responsibility of an adult relationship, or mature enough to be responsible for a child? the answer is obviously NO, so why is this different?

inmytree wrote:

we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....

no one is defending his actions, we are trying to understand the motive for his actions and the environment that produced his thought process. what i am defending is the idea that he should be tried as a child. the two are very different.

inmytree wrote:

...they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...

you're right, we, you and i, don't have to deal with him, but neither of us is suggesting that dealing with him would be easy. either way, it doesn't disqualify you or i from debating the issue.

inmytree wrote:

I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...

it has been pointed out by others but bears repeating, to be remorseful you are admitting guilt, which by extension means that in order to be tried as a child he must admit that he has committed the crime. there's a slight conflict of interest in this philosophy. it's as if the judge is strong arming this kid into confessing, a plea bargain of sorts.

inmytree wrote:

and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...

you're right again, people are clouded by emotion. people who are angry that this innocent lady was shot and killed, people who want the killer to pay, people who think the world is black and white and if you kill someone you go to jail for life, regardless of your age/maturity/understanding, and regardless of the environment/circumstances that surround each case. you're right, people are emotionally driven, but it's not just the people who disagree with you; you and your side are emotionally driven as well.

you should consider the idea that people who disagree with you are not just irrational bleeding-hearts, and that maybe we are looking at this with thought and reason, just like you. maybe we just see this from a different angle.

samsonite wrote:

inmytree wrote:

you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...

true, but it's not a baseless assumption. i have friends and family who have spent time in the juvenile correction system and say what little "counseling" there is was a joke.

inmytree wrote:

I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...

and let's not forget that it was you who first assumed he was getting "more counseling than 1000 people receive in a lifetime," which fits your narrative. don't act like i'm the only one with a presupposition.

inmytree wrote:

and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...

again i ask, does acting out an adult action make you an adult? does punching a ballot make you mature enough to do so? does having sex at 14 make you mature enough to handle the responsibility of an adult relationship, or mature enough to be responsible for a child? the answer is obviously NO, so why is this different?

inmytree wrote:

we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....

no one is defending his actions, we are trying to understand the motive for his actions and the environment that produced his thought process. what i am defending is the idea that he should be tried as a child. the two are very different.

inmytree wrote:

...they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...

you're right, we, you and i, don't have to deal with him, but neither of us is suggesting that dealing with him would be easy. either way, it doesn't disqualify you or i from debating the issue.

inmytree wrote:

I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...

it has been pointed out by others but bears repeating, to be remorseful you are admitting guilt, which by extension means that in order to be tried as a child he must admit that he has committed the crime. there's a slight conflict of interest in this philosophy. it's as if the judge is strong arming this kid into confessing, a plea bargain of sorts.

inmytree wrote:

and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...

you're right again, people are clouded by emotion. people who are angry that this innocent lady was shot and killed, people who want the killer to pay, people who think the world is black and white and if you kill someone you go to jail for life, regardless of your age/maturity/understanding, and regardless of the environment/circumstances that surround each case. you're right, people are emotionally driven, but it's not just the people who disagree with you; you and your side are emotionally driven as well.

you should consider the idea that people who disagree with you are not just irrational bleeding-hearts, and that maybe we are looking at this with thought and reason, just like you. maybe we just see this from a different angle.

sure...fine...you and others want this kid to out on the streets at age 21...I don't....

I hope he doesn't move next door to you and yours...

JonnyPistachio wrote:

pandora wrote:

This might be true that some are born broken but I feel it is a combination
of factors though not just this that makes a killer.

If someone is born into a loving family who does not ignore nor wear blinders, the broken at birth still have a chance with appropriate help. They are destined to repeat the love they know.

Those that do not stand a chance are those that are victims from birth. Unspeakable trauma that breaks even the healthiest minds. Evil begets evil.

In this case I don't think this boy is evil. His motives we can guess. I don't know how he was raised but it was a combination of factors that drove him to this.

He needs to be in a mental health treatment center for at least as long as he has walked this earth.
Into his mid twenties when the mind is actually matured enough to understand consequences
and to deal with why he perceived this woman and the unborn child as a threat.
I am hopeful he can be fixed.

I agree perfectly Pandora.
I think it is a combination of things.. and thats precisely why we cant give up on this kid. He can still be shaped. He IS still being shaped and will be for a long time.

inmytree: I dont think people in this thread are trying to rationalize what he did at all. Most are just dissecting what went wrong and trying to decide if there is a path of betterment.. Perhaps Eyed is right and he is wired wrong, but we need to dig a little deeper to figure it out before we lock him up and throw away the key.

and I respectfully disagree...I think some are trying to rationalize his behavior...this incident can be dissected many ways...at the end of the day...a pregnant women was brutally murdered...a fact that seems lost on many....

inmytree wrote:

redrock wrote:

There is definitely a problem with the judicial system of a 'civilised' country that tries children as adults in adult courts with life sentences and no chance of rehabilitation.

Just as a reminder:
"Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18."

if the US were uncivilized this kid would have been hung by now...I think by taking the time to properly address this issue via the courts actually proves that we are a civilized nation...

If they just give the kid a 60 year sentence for blowing the head off a pregnant woman, then it will no longer conflict with the UN Convention of the Rights of a Child.

Also, it appears that the US was actively involved with drafting the Rights of the Child. It was signed but wasn't ratified because lawmakers are concerned with having International law govern our domestic policies.

Drowned Out wrote:

Jason P wrote:

If they just give the kid a 60 year sentence for blowing the head off a pregnant woman, then it will no longer conflict with the UN Convention of the Rights of a Child.

Also, it appears that the US was actively involved with drafting the Rights of the Child. It was signed but wasn't ratified because lawmakers are concerned with having International law govern our domestic policies.

But then he'd have a chance of parole, right?
And...why aren't all of the other UN members who did ratify concerned about international law trumping domestic?
The entire US prison system is considered barbaric by industrialized western standards, and rightfully so.

I agree that the simple notion of trying a child as an adult makes no logical sense at all....change the laws for children if they have no teeth. Let the democratic proccess determine how to handle these cases...don't cherry pick cases and apply a different set of rules only to certain people.

I'm not sure if Rights of Childs act is concerned with sentences without parole or life sentences without parole. Perhaps someone that can navigate their poorly laid-out website can tell us.

My opinion is anyone that premeditates a murder should be locked up for good, regardless of age. There is a reason why our streets are not filled with preschoolers at this very moment setting bums on fire. They understand killing human beings is very, very wrong. I'm sorry if the kid didn't realize he could end up spending the rest of his life in prison. Too bad for him that he couldn't understand the concept of time and punishment. But I find it very, very, very, hard to believe that he was unaware that killing someone was unacceptable and that there would be no consequence.

Plus, two years later, the little guy maintains innocence. And for those that think adults failed this kid, one of those adults received the ultimate punishment. And the other adult who is fighting for his son, if the kid is guilty, I have no problem with him getting thrown in the klink as well.