13 year-old could get life in prison???
wolfamongwolves
Posts: 2,414
This is utter lunacy. How can there be any claim to justice in assuming an 11 year-old child is as culpable as an adult, and that he is beyond any hope of rehabilitation for the rest of his life? That is a legal system as irrational, as infantile and as delinquent as the child it is penalising.
US child appeals against being tried for murder as an adult
Jordan Brown, who was 11 when he allegedly killed his father's pregnant fiancee, could face life sentence with no parole
Ed Pilkington in New York guardian.co.uk,
Tuesday 25 January 2011 19.00 GMT
Lawyers for a child in Pennsylvania who was 11 when he allegedly shot and killed his father's pregnant fiancee attempted today to persuade an appeals court not to try him as an adult under America's harsh system of juvenile justice.
Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole. He would become the youngest child in US history to be sentenced to be incarcerated forever.
The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy. Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18.
Brown is accused of having killed Kenzie Houk, in February 2009 at her home in the countryside about 35 miles north-west of Pittsburgh. According to the prosecution, Brown shot her through the back of the head as she slept in her bedroom.
He is then alleged to have got on the school bus and gone to his elementary school as usual.
Houk, 26, was just two weeks away from her due date and her unborn child, who would have been called Christopher, died too. Brown has been charged with two counts of homicide.
Brown allegedly carried out the killing using his own hunting rifle, a shotgun designed specifically for children. The prosecution alleges that the killing was premeditated and they found residue from the gun on Brown's shoulder.
When he was first presented to court Brown was made to wear shackles around his wrists and ankles.
Human rights campaigners are protesting the treatment of Brown as an adult. Amnesty International said the move would be a violation of international law. "It is shocking that anyone this young could face life imprisonment without parole, let alone in a country which labels itself as a progressive force for human rights," said Susan Lee, head of the campaign's Americas operation.
The Sentencing Project, a Washington-based campaign, said no other country had juveniles serving life without parole. "That leads to only two conclusions: either kids in the US are far more violent than those in the rest of the world, or the US has developed uniquely harsh sentences."
At a federal level, the US penal system has been inching towards a more lenient approach to juvenile crime. In 2005 the US supreme court abolished the death penalty for under-18s.
Then last May it ruled that juveniles could not be subjected to life without parole for any crime other than homicide.
But that still leaves about 2,400 prisoners facing permanent imprisonment for homicides committed when they were children.
Pennsylvania, where all juveniles are automatically treated as adults unless a judge decides otherwise, heads the league table of 44 states that hand out the sentence, with about 450 cases.
Houk's death has divided the two families involved in their response to Brown's judicial treatment. The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence and says he has no idea what could await him.
"Try to explain to a 12-year-old what the rest of your life means. It's incomprehensible for him," he told ABC News last year.
The victim's mother, Deborah Houk, has pushed for the toughest sentence for the boy. "I can't stand this 'Oh, he's 11,' 'Oh, his clothes don't fit him,'" she told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review soon after her daughter's death. "He knew what he was doing. He killed my baby."
US child appeals against being tried for murder as an adult
Jordan Brown, who was 11 when he allegedly killed his father's pregnant fiancee, could face life sentence with no parole
Ed Pilkington in New York guardian.co.uk,
Tuesday 25 January 2011 19.00 GMT
Lawyers for a child in Pennsylvania who was 11 when he allegedly shot and killed his father's pregnant fiancee attempted today to persuade an appeals court not to try him as an adult under America's harsh system of juvenile justice.
Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole. He would become the youngest child in US history to be sentenced to be incarcerated forever.
The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy. Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18.
Brown is accused of having killed Kenzie Houk, in February 2009 at her home in the countryside about 35 miles north-west of Pittsburgh. According to the prosecution, Brown shot her through the back of the head as she slept in her bedroom.
He is then alleged to have got on the school bus and gone to his elementary school as usual.
Houk, 26, was just two weeks away from her due date and her unborn child, who would have been called Christopher, died too. Brown has been charged with two counts of homicide.
Brown allegedly carried out the killing using his own hunting rifle, a shotgun designed specifically for children. The prosecution alleges that the killing was premeditated and they found residue from the gun on Brown's shoulder.
When he was first presented to court Brown was made to wear shackles around his wrists and ankles.
Human rights campaigners are protesting the treatment of Brown as an adult. Amnesty International said the move would be a violation of international law. "It is shocking that anyone this young could face life imprisonment without parole, let alone in a country which labels itself as a progressive force for human rights," said Susan Lee, head of the campaign's Americas operation.
The Sentencing Project, a Washington-based campaign, said no other country had juveniles serving life without parole. "That leads to only two conclusions: either kids in the US are far more violent than those in the rest of the world, or the US has developed uniquely harsh sentences."
At a federal level, the US penal system has been inching towards a more lenient approach to juvenile crime. In 2005 the US supreme court abolished the death penalty for under-18s.
Then last May it ruled that juveniles could not be subjected to life without parole for any crime other than homicide.
But that still leaves about 2,400 prisoners facing permanent imprisonment for homicides committed when they were children.
Pennsylvania, where all juveniles are automatically treated as adults unless a judge decides otherwise, heads the league table of 44 states that hand out the sentence, with about 450 cases.
Houk's death has divided the two families involved in their response to Brown's judicial treatment. The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence and says he has no idea what could await him.
"Try to explain to a 12-year-old what the rest of your life means. It's incomprehensible for him," he told ABC News last year.
The victim's mother, Deborah Houk, has pushed for the toughest sentence for the boy. "I can't stand this 'Oh, he's 11,' 'Oh, his clothes don't fit him,'" she told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review soon after her daughter's death. "He knew what he was doing. He killed my baby."
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
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What is even more shocking is this:
Guess the US keeps good company. Somalia... a country where children are abducted, drugged, etc. to be used as 'child soldiers'...
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
actions have consequences...murdering someone, no matter how old the killer is, should have the same result...
I could not disagree with you more.
Children, by definition, do not have the maturity to understand the consequences of their actions to anything like the same level as adults. I can't believe such a blindingly obvious point even needs to be made.
What he did was an unspeakably terrible thing, yes, but to say to an 11 year-old "That's it. We refuse to entertain the notion that you can ever be of any worth to society, that, though you may live another 70 years, you will never change, mature, develop, regret, make recompense, nor will we ever allow you to"... is astoundingly myopic, and in my opinion entirely unjust.
If the complete totality of the analysis and thinking on this from someone inside the system is "actions have consequences" then it's hardly surprising that the system is as dysfunctional and backwards as it is.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I'm guessing you've never worked in that sort of setting...
It's easy to sit on the outside and dramatically be upset...how about this...? let's let this kid out at 18...and you can take him in and save him...I'm sure he'll be needing some love and support, perhaps a few hugs,too...
you seem to have the energy and knowledge to fix the "dysfunctional and backwards" system...get yourself a job within the system and save it...please...
Amnesty International is "deeply disturbed" by the way the case is proceeding. I imagine that Kenzie Houk's six year old daughter is also "deeply disturbed" by discovering her pregnant mother's head blown off in her bedroom.
Part of the issue is determining guilt. The prosecutors claim they are trying Brown as an adult because he has not shown remorse in the murder. Brown's lawyers argue that he can't show remorse because they claim he is innocent. If found guilty, Amnesty International should be more upset with the kid's lawyers for gambling his future away, not the legal system.
Godfather.
Are you actually suggesting that only those who work in the system are entitled to an opinion on it... or at least to have that opinion respected? You think things are just black-and-white - that anyone who doesn't take your extreme view therefore thakes the extreme opposite view. That's patently nonsense. Don't patronise me with silly snide comments about "love" & "hugs".
Here's how a civilised society mght operate on this. First, don't try a child as an adult - no matter what he did, he is not an adult. If it is possible or permissable to try a child as an adult, it just gives the lie to the legal system, and renders any notion of legal childhood or adulthood meaningless. You keep him in a children's detention centre, while he is still a child. You ensure that there are remedial facilities to ensure that he can develop into an adult who may (or may not) be better equipped to handle the consequences of his actions, and when he is an adult you assess whether or not he is still a danger to society. In other words, you act in a mature and responsible fashion. You don't just lock up a child, throw away the key. That's nothing but a cop-out, and breeds a system that fosters delinquency, not remedies it.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I'm guessing your opinion, inmytree, on this situation comes from working in the system which has now left you jaded?
And you're frustrated that these kids you're trying to help are influenced by things that seem to be greater than you but really shouldn't be in actual reality?
Just asking ...
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
One, no one is blaming the gun. That argument gets bandied around, and it just shows a lack of understanding about what pro-gun-control people are actually saying. It's not that guns per se are to blame, but that you create a very much greater enabling environment for gun crime is when you make it very easy for anyone (in this case a child) to get their hands on a gun. Anyway, that is not the debate here - if you want to talk guns, you know where that thread is.
Two, I agree with you about psychological testing - it is essential. Which is why to react as inmytree says that every situation should have "the same result" and we need think no more about it than that, is iresponsible and unrealistic.
Three, no one's talking about excusing the crime - let me say that clearly, once and for all so that there is no confusion. You don't excuse the crime, but you do deal with it in a legally responsible fashion, which is not pretending a child is an adult, just because it was a heinous action. He is not, and to pretend otherwise fundamentally undermines any possibility of justice.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I agree Godfather.. The father or whoever is responsible for giving this kid a shotgun "specially designed for kids" ( :? wtf?!, by the way!).. should be held accountable to some degree.
To lock this kid up for the rest of his life is not good.
No, locking him up is not good because his mind is fresh, and may be without empathy hinting at the first stages of psychosis (possibly?), but you have to think who he will be when he is again let out into society. Shooting your father at the age of 11 will be the least of his problems after serving a life sentence.
... Fuck ...
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
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jaded...nope...
realist...yes...
I spent many years in that system...I've worked with murders in the past...teenage males...so I've had some experience...
I've seen a lot of kids make progress and do fine...I've seen others who were well beyond me or anyone else...that didn't stop me or anyone else I worked with from trying to help and guide...at the end of the day, one can't really make someone do something they don't want to...that's up to each person to make whatever choices they want...as I mentioned, choices have consequences...plain and simple...
for killing a pregnant women....I think this person should have consequences...
XLNT reply thanks man.
Godfather.
And I am saying there should be consequences. But trying him as an adult and incarcerating a child till the day he dies is not a responsible or just consequence.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
so I'm guessing you're not willing to have this kid over of a Guinness when he turns 21...interesting...
this kid MURDERED a pregnant women...he shot her in cold blood...the fact seems lost on you...perhaps you can stop being so dramatic and relax for a minute...sometimes folks are going to disagree with you...
I still say, since you seem to know everything about how to fix a murderer, that you should get to work in the system...methinks you'll be singing a different tune after spending some time....I'd guess you'd last about 3 months working with that population....
says you...
I say different....
inmytree, what do say about the character development this kid is going to get during a life sentence, and that character going back into society?
I'll be totally honest with you here inmytree. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that your perspective (maybe not in it's entirety) is shared by the majority of people who have years of experience within the system. I am going into the system actually, to work in mental health and specializing in schizophrenia. I have years of experience but from a families perspective when it comes to schizophrenia. My mom's twin brother who is 57 is mentally ill and this has exposed me to the illness. So, this is why I am posing these questions to you. I hope you don't mind.
At the moment, I do not agree the boy should be given a life sentence which will eventually lead him to federal prison.
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
So it would seem.
And for the record, of course it's not lost on me that he murdered a pregnant woman, or that there should be consequences. But they should be consequences befitting the immature child that he is. That's all I'm saying. And I still say that, even if I don't have your first hand experience of dealing with juveniles. It doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
That's what I'm saying too. He isn't 30 years old. He's 13! Like I said, if you incarcerate this kid, you're inflicting consequences on society because of the exposer he'll have to hardened criminals once he see's the inside of a state pen. He's a sitting duck.
Oh man, that fuckin' kid .....
But then, I guess, it just is. That's the way it is. Man, is that ever hard to wrap my head around.
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
Who knows what he was thinking. If he was thinking that it is ok to shoot and kill (and kill?...I doubt he knew what that really meant and it's significance...He might have thought that by shooting he'll have more potato chips to himself) then maybe this is a true case of, 'THE TELEVISION MADE ME DO IT'
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I totally agree. But why just life? Put him down.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Tough to say. He may feel totally detached from the human condition and not feel much of anything at all. Like I said, faulty wiring. He wasn't too young to understand the consequences; he wasn't five years old. He was a teenager who had experience with guns and had seen what they can do. It wasn't that he didn't know what would happen when you place the barrel at the base of someone's skull and pull the trigger, it's that he didn't care.
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character development in prison...? it won't be good...nor will it be "good" if he stays in with juveniles...
there is no good solution here...not one...that's the thing about this...a women is dead, her unborn child is dead, a father lost a son...
while he may be a child, do you or anyone else want him living next door to you when he gets out...? I'm being serious...
some folks are born to be in prison...some folks make stupid choices to get themselves there...some get out and change, many don't....
I guess it would help to examine the meaning of "life in prison"...some think that means tossing him in and throwing away the key...I'm guessing here it means something along the lines of 25 to life...with a chance at parole...if can be a contributing member of society, so be it...however, I say the prognosis is not good...
if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? there are lots and lots and lots of 11 year olds out there....I don't hear of many in the position he is in....
I understand your point...and I hope you understand mine...
this kids as issues beyond either one of us....sadly, there is no good answer here...
but, I don't give him a free pass based on his age...that's all....