13 year-old could get life in prison???

zarocat

wolfamongwolves wrote:

inmytree wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

But trying him as an adult and incarcerating a child till the day he dies is not a responsible or just consequence.

says you...

I say different....

So it would seem.


And for the record, of course it's not lost on me that he murdered a pregnant woman, or that there should be consequences. But they should be consequences befitting the immature child that he is. That's all I'm saying. And I still say that, even if I don't have your first hand experience of dealing with juveniles. It doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.

That's what I'm saying too. He isn't 30 years old. He's 13! Like I said, if you incarcerate this kid, you're inflicting consequences on society because of the exposer he'll have to hardened criminals once he see's the inside of a state pen. He's a sitting duck.
Oh man, that fuckin' kid .....
But then, I guess, it just is. That's the way it is. Man, is that ever hard to wrap my head around.

Kel Varnsen

Sounds like an interesting case. I mean I agree that throwing a 13 year old in prison for life is not really the way to handle it. But at the same time what do you do with a kid who at 11 years old is fucked up in the head enough to think it is ok to shoot and kill a person? Is life in a mental hospital really that much better than life in prison?

zarocat

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Sounds like an interesting case. I mean I agree that throwing a 13 year old in prison for life is not really the way to handle it. But at the same time what do you do with a kid who at 11 years old is fucked up in the head enough to think it is ok to shoot and kill a person? Is life in a mental hospital really that much better than life in prison?

Who knows what he was thinking. If he was thinking that it is ok to shoot and kill (and kill?...I doubt he knew what that really meant and it's significance...He might have thought that by shooting he'll have more potato chips to himself) then maybe this is a true case of, 'THE TELEVISION MADE ME DO IT'

dimitrispearljam

where the fuck a 11 years old child find a gun?thats the issue...

mrvedderson

inmytree wrote:

As someone who worked in the juvenile justice system for many years....I have no problem with them trying this killer as they see fit...

actions have consequences...murdering someone, no matter how old the killer is, should have the same result...

I totally agree. But why just life? Put him down.

BinauralJam

This kid was in a lot of pain to do what he did, i say give em 25 years and lot's of consuling.

lukin2006

Unless the law has changed and I'm unaware that it has, here in Canada he couldn't even be charged until he was 12. Don't you people think he should first should under go a battery of psychological testing before any determination on his sentence should be made? They need to make sure that he is not suffering from some sort of mental illness that could lead him to commit these type of crimes upon release.

eyedclaar

BinauralJam wrote:

This kid was in a lot of pain to do what he did, i say give em 25 years and lot's of consuling.

Tough to say. He may feel totally detached from the human condition and not feel much of anything at all. Like I said, faulty wiring. He wasn't too young to understand the consequences; he wasn't five years old. He was a teenager who had experience with guns and had seen what they can do. It wasn't that he didn't know what would happen when you place the barrel at the base of someone's skull and pull the trigger, it's that he didn't care.

inmytree

zarocat wrote:

inmytree wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

But trying him as an adult and incarcerating a child till the day he dies is not a responsible or just consequence.

says you...

I say different....

inmytree, what do say about the character development this kid is going to get during a life sentence, and that character going back into society?

I'll be totally honest with you here inmytree. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that your perspective (maybe not in it's entirety) is shared by the majority of people who have years of experience within the system. I am going into the system actually, to work in mental health and specializing in schizophrenia. I have years of experience but from a families perspective when it comes to schizophrenia. My mom's twin brother who is 57 is mentally ill and this has exposed me to the illness. So, this is why I am posing these questions to you. I hope you don't mind.
At the moment, I do not agree the boy should be given a life sentence which will eventually lead him to federal prison.

character development in prison...? it won't be good...nor will it be "good" if he stays in with juveniles...

there is no good solution here...not one...that's the thing about this...a women is dead, her unborn child is dead, a father lost a son...

while he may be a child, do you or anyone else want him living next door to you when he gets out...? I'm being serious...

some folks are born to be in prison...some folks make stupid choices to get themselves there...some get out and change, many don't....

I guess it would help to examine the meaning of "life in prison"...some think that means tossing him in and throwing away the key...I'm guessing here it means something along the lines of 25 to life...with a chance at parole...if can be a contributing member of society, so be it...however, I say the prognosis is not good...

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? there are lots and lots and lots of 11 year olds out there....I don't hear of many in the position he is in....

inmytree

wolfamongwolves wrote:

inmytree wrote:

wolfamongwolves wrote:

But trying him as an adult and incarcerating a child till the day he dies is not a responsible or just consequence.

says you...

I say different....

So it would seem.


And for the record, of course it's not lost on me that he murdered a pregnant woman, or that there should be consequences. But they should be consequences befitting the immature child that he is. That's all I'm saying. And I still say that, even if I don't have your first hand experience of dealing with juveniles. It doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.

I understand your point...and I hope you understand mine...

this kids as issues beyond either one of us....sadly, there is no good answer here...

but, I don't give him a free pass based on his age...that's all....

wolfamongwolves

inmytree wrote:

I understand your point...and I hope you understand mine...

this kids as issues beyond either one of us....sadly, there is no good answer here...

but, I don't give him a free pass based on his age...that's all....

This much I agree with you entirely on. I was never talking about a free pass.

samsonite

quoting inmytree:
"I guess it would help to examine the meaning of "life in prison"...some think that means tossing him in and throwing away the key...I'm guessing here it means something along the lines of 25 to life...with a chance at parole..."

quoting the article in the op:
"Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole."

quoting inmytree:
"some folks are born to be in prison...some folks make stupid choices to get themselves there...some get out and change, many don't...."

the idea that some are "born to be in prison" seems crazy to me. to start with the presupposition that some people are meant to be in prison seems like it would lead down a dangerous path, for one who decides which people are "born to be in prison"?

i can't imagine putting this kid in prison for the rest of his life. we won't allow him to make most adult decisions because he's not mature enough to understand the consequences/effect of his decisions, but we can try him as an adult?! doesn't make sense to me.

this kid needs help, not given up on.

redrock

inmytree wrote:

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? .

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

samsonite

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? .

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

GREAT point!

Godfather.

samsonite wrote:

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? .

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

GREAT point!

and maybe the seed of evil have already been planted, like you said "who knows", I agree with that.

Godfather.

Jason P

samsonite wrote:

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? .

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

GREAT point!

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger. A blurred reality is when a child finds a gun for the first time and shoots at somebody without understanding the reality of the decision (and that kid better be under the age of six).

redrock

Jason P wrote:

samsonite wrote:

redrock wrote:

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

GREAT point!

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger. A blurred reality is when a child finds a gun for the first time and shoots at somebody without understanding the reality of the decision (and that kid better be under the age of six).

Not the consequence of death but the fact of killing being blurred - the boundaries. OK for one, OK for the other - blasé?

Also, need to try and understand why. What were the family issues?

samsonite

Jason P wrote:

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger. A blurred reality is when a child finds a gun for the first time and shoots at somebody without understanding the reality of the decision (and that kid better be under the age of six).

"and that kid better be under the age of six"
are you suggesting a seven year old knows better and should be tried as an adult?

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger
i might agree with you if he was hunting his dog. shooting a deer, that you have no attachment to, carries very different consequences than shooting someone you love and have a personal relationship with. when you hunt deer you go out, shoot the animal, and never think of it again. everytime you go out there's a new deer to kill. there's no real loss to you personally, no lasting consequences. shooting your step-mother is altogether different.

Jason P

redrock wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger. A blurred reality is when a child finds a gun for the first time and shoots at somebody without understanding the reality of the decision (and that kid better be under the age of six).

Not the consequence of death but the fact of killing being blurred - the boundaries. OK for one, OK for the other - blasé?

Also, need to try and understand why. What were the family issues?

All important issues to consider. Was he beaten daily? Or was his Xbox taken away for skipping class? What was the catalyst?

As I noted in an earlier post, the kid's lawyers are failing to help the kid by declaring him not guilty. The prosecutors have noted they are charging him as an adult because he has failed to show any remorse for the alleged crime. Without having the kid explain why he did it and show he is truly sorry and remorseful (and therefore a candidate for rehabilitation), I say lock him up forever if found guilty. That is not a person I want living in my neighborhood in eight years.

samsonite

redrock wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I would think that having prior hunting experience and seeing the results of a dead life form would reinforce the dyer consequences of pulling a trigger. A blurred reality is when a child finds a gun for the first time and shoots at somebody without understanding the reality of the decision (and that kid better be under the age of six).

Not the consequence of death but the fact of killing being blurred - the boundaries. OK for one, OK for the other - blasé?

Also, need to try and understand why. What were the family issues?

another great point.

how often was the phrase "i want to kill you," or some variation, thrown around this house? is there a history of violence, not only with this child, but with either parent? i believe someone else said this already but there are too many unknowns to just write this kid off.