13 year-old could get life in prison???

redrock

samsonite wrote:

there's no real loss to you personally, no lasting consequences. shooting your step-mother is altogether different.

Maybe he didn't like his father's girlfriend and didn't want his mother replaced. Maybe he was jealous of her and the brother or sister she was carrying - thinking he was being replaced in his father's heart. If so, maybe she was no real personal loss? The article posted does not tell us enough about the crime and I guess we cannot judge/make informed comments without knowing the facts of the matter.

What matters here is that a 'civilized' country can try, sentence and imprison a child like an adult.

samsonite

redrock wrote:

samsonite wrote:

there's no real loss to you personally, no lasting consequences. shooting your step-mother is altogether different.

Maybe he didn't like his father's girlfriend and didn't want his mother replaced. Maybe he was jealous of her and the brother or sister she was carrying - thinking he was being replaced in his father's heart. If so, maybe she was no real personal loss? The article posted does not tell us enough about the crime and I guess we cannot judge/make informed comments without knowing the facts of the matter.

What matters here is that a 'civilized' country can try, sentence and imprison a child like an adult.

agreed.

Jason P

samsonite wrote:

redrock wrote:

samsonite wrote:

there's no real loss to you personally, no lasting consequences. shooting your step-mother is altogether different.

Maybe he didn't like his father's girlfriend and didn't want his mother replaced. Maybe he was jealous of her and the brother or sister she was carrying - thinking he was being replaced in his father's heart. If so, maybe she was no real personal loss? The article posted does not tell us enough about the crime and I guess we cannot judge/make informed comments without knowing the facts of the matter.

What matters here is that a 'civilized' country can try, sentence and imprison a child like an adult.

agreed.

He has had two years to think about it and understand that he has ended two human lives, yet he continues to proclaim innocence. If he is found innocent, then good for him. If found guilty, and the evidence is stacked up against him, then this "child" is a monster.

mysticweed

a minor cannot enter into a contract
a minor cannot get married
a minor cannot vote
there are reasons for this
a child cannot reason

we cannot (as a humane country) try, convict, and ultimately sentence a child for murder as an adult
if this child is an evil little monster at 11, it is his parents' fault
because i don't care if it falls on the nature or nurture side of the argument, if he is capable of killing people
it is his parents' fault

redrock

Jason P wrote:

samsonite wrote:

redrock wrote:

Maybe he didn't like his father's girlfriend and didn't want his mother replaced. Maybe he was jealous of her and the brother or sister she was carrying - thinking he was being replaced in his father's heart. If so, maybe she was no real personal loss? The article posted does not tell us enough about the crime and I guess we cannot judge/make informed comments without knowing the facts of the matter.

What matters here is that a 'civilized' country can try, sentence and imprison a child like an adult.

agreed.

He has had two years to think about it and understand that he has ended two human lives, yet he continues to proclaim innocence. If he is found innocent, then good for him. If found guilty, and the evidence is stacked up against him, then this "child" is a monster.

I'm sure it's a 'lawyer' thing.

Nothing stops the courts finding this kid guilty if he is. It's just which courts and how he is dealt with after.

pandora

No one came....

The tiny head lies wet from tears in his crib in the dark.
New to this hell...his hell.
His stomach gnaws with hunger. His thumb that is all to satisfy.
His wimpers turn to cries.
Cries turn to screams
answered by the evil that he must learn to endure.

Day to day. Month by month. Year after year.
No one came.

The darkness envelopes his mind taking all the light of innocence with it.
He learns the word from the evil he sees.
Loveless gives room to hate.
Hate gives him power, power to be anything but a victim,
though he is now destined to forever be,
just that.
He is a victim of himself, of hate and of evil.
He is a warrior.

You will find him on a lonely road in the dark of night, waiting for an opportunity.
He is the smiling stranger in a crowded subway, as he takes aim to punish the world.
He is the bomber in a faraway land or a professional killer without the heart even for revenge.

But he was once a child
and he never had a chance.
No one came.... and he never knew love.


He never knew love...this the crime on humanity

BinauralJam

chickweed wrote:

a minor cannot enter into a contract
a minor cannot get married
a minor cannot vote
there are reasons for this
a child cannot reason

we cannot (as a humane country) try, convict, and ultimately sentence a child for muder as an adult
if this child is an evil little monster at 11, it is his parents' fault
because i don't care if it falls on the nature or nurture side of the argument, if he is capable of killing people
it is his parents' fault

Good Points

inmytree

samsonite wrote:

quoting inmytree:
"I guess it would help to examine the meaning of "life in prison"...some think that means tossing him in and throwing away the key...I'm guessing here it means something along the lines of 25 to life...with a chance at parole..."

quoting the article in the op:
"Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole."

quoting inmytree:
"some folks are born to be in prison...some folks make stupid choices to get themselves there...some get out and change, many don't...."

the idea that some are "born to be in prison" seems crazy to me. to start with the presupposition that some people are meant to be in prison seems like it would lead down a dangerous path, for one who decides which people are "born to be in prison"?

i can't imagine putting this kid in prison for the rest of his life. we won't allow him to make most adult decisions because he's not mature enough to understand the consequences/effect of his decisions, but we can try him as an adult?! doesn't make sense to me.

this kid needs help, not given up on.

so the idea seems crazy to you...fine...you disagree...that's ok...

fact of business is this kid brutally murdered a pregnant women...and this notion that at 11 he doesn't know right from wrong is crazy to me...

let me ask you, what does make sense to you...? what should the state of PA do with this kid...?

I will say this, if this kid gets out at 21 and ends up killing again, folks will go crazy and looking to blame the state...

inmytree

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

if at 11 years old, he thinks it's ok to kill someone, what do you think he's going to be like at 30...? .

At 11 you still do not have the full notion of right or wrong, boundaries and consequences. Maybe at 30 he will be an adult who has seen the enormity of his actions when a child and fully repented. You don't know. A couple of 'famous' child murderers that I know of are now good citizens.

Maybe this kid having a hunting rifle (and being taught how to hunt/shoot animals?) had a blurred idea of what death/killing is? Who knows?

really...!?!?!? at age 11 a child doesn't have a full notion of right or wrong...? and maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries...you don't know...

tell me more about these famous child murders you know...I'm intrigued...

tell me, when do kids get that notion...? I do wonder why more 11 years don't brutally murder people...you know, since they don't understand right from wrong...

inmytree

wolfamongwolves wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I understand your point...and I hope you understand mine...

this kids as issues beyond either one of us....sadly, there is no good answer here...

but, I don't give him a free pass based on his age...that's all....

This much I agree with you entirely on. I was never talking about a free pass.

true, I concede that you never did mention a free pass, I think your issue is his age...

for me, his age is not an issue...his actions are...

mysticweed

pandora wrote:

No one came....

The tiny head lies wet from tears in his crib in the dark.
New to this hell...his hell.
His stomach gnaws with hunger. His thumb that is all to satisfy.
His wimpers turn to cries.
Cries turn to screams
answered by the evil that he must learn to endure.

Day to day. Month by month. Year after year.
No one came.

The darkness envelopes his mind taking all the light of innocence with it.
He learns the word from the evil he sees.
Loveless gives room to hate.
Hate gives him power, power to be anything but a victim,
though he is now destined to forever be,
just that.
He is a victim of himself, of hate and of evil.
He is a warrior.

You will find him on a lonely road in the dark of night, waiting for an opportunity.
He is the smiling stranger in a crowded subway, as he takes aim to punish the world.
He is the bomber in a faraway land or a professional killer without the heart even for revenge.

But he was once a child
and he never had a chance.
No one came.... and he never knew love.


He never knew love...this the crime on humanity

so fucking sad
and
so fucking true

eyedclaar

I think it is important to remember that some people are simply born insane. Their brains are broken from the very get-go. They never really had a chance. It sucks, but people are born with severe, crippling health issues all the time and we understand those because of their visible nature, but it is the same thing with a lot of cases of mental health even if you can't tell by just looking at someone. We all want to blame someone, the parents, guns, society, but it may be that this one was born with a not fully developed brain in critical areas, or was just born psychotic. Faulty wiring... it happens.

samsonite

inmytree wrote:

samsonite wrote:

quoting inmytree:
"I guess it would help to examine the meaning of "life in prison"...some think that means tossing him in and throwing away the key...I'm guessing here it means something along the lines of 25 to life...with a chance at parole..."

quoting the article in the op:
"Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole."

quoting inmytree:
"some folks are born to be in prison...some folks make stupid choices to get themselves there...some get out and change, many don't...."

the idea that some are "born to be in prison" seems crazy to me. to start with the presupposition that some people are meant to be in prison seems like it would lead down a dangerous path, for one who decides which people are "born to be in prison"?

i can't imagine putting this kid in prison for the rest of his life. we won't allow him to make most adult decisions because he's not mature enough to understand the consequences/effect of his decisions, but we can try him as an adult?! doesn't make sense to me.

this kid needs help, not given up on.

so the idea seems crazy to you...fine...you disagree...that's ok...

fact of business is this kid brutally murdered a pregnant women...and this notion that at 11 he doesn't know right from wrong is crazy to me...

let me ask you, what does make sense to you...? what should the state of PA do with this kid...?

I will say this, if this kid gets out at 21 and ends up killing again, folks will go crazy and looking to blame the state...

thank you for allowing me to disagree.

as far as what the state should do i would suggest a lot of counseling, a real effort at rehabilitation.

and you're right, if he kills again people will blame the state, but with this kind of logic we should never let anyone out of prison because if you killed once you'll kill again, if you raped once you'll rape again, if you robbed once you'll rob again. (for adults this might not be a bad policy) of course it would be awful if he killed again, but he committed murder as a child, we should try and sentence him as a child.
i wonder, if this were your eleven year old son would have a different point of view? admittedly, i may see things differently if someone in my family had been killed.

mysticweed

eyedclaar wrote:

I think it is important to remember that some people are simply born insane. Their brains are broken from the very get-go. They never really had a chance. It sucks, but people are born with severe, crippling health issues all the time and we understand those because of their visible nature, but it is the same thing with a lot of cases of mental health even if you can't tell by just looking at someone. We all want to blame someone, the parents, guns, society, but it may be that this one was born with a not fully developed brain in critical areas, or was just born psychotic. Faulty wiring... it happens.

this is all true
but
if he was born insane
and his parents did not know this?
and they got him a special stock "kid" gun?
nature or nurture
it still falls on his parents

eyedclaar

chickweed wrote:

eyedclaar wrote:

I think it is important to remember that some people are simply born insane. Their brains are broken from the very get-go. They never really had a chance. It sucks, but people are born with severe, crippling health issues all the time and we understand those because of their visible nature, but it is the same thing with a lot of cases of mental health even if you can't tell by just looking at someone. We all want to blame someone, the parents, guns, society, but it may be that this one was born with a not fully developed brain in critical areas, or was just born psychotic. Faulty wiring... it happens.

this is all true
but
if he was born insane
and his parents did not know this?
and they got him a special stock "kid" gun?
nature or nurture
it still falls on his parents

The parents may have realized "something" was up with their kid, but it really may have never occured to them that this type of violent behavior was even conceivable.

mysticweed

eyedclaar wrote:

chickweed wrote:

eyedclaar wrote:

I think it is important to remember that some people are simply born insane. Their brains are broken from the very get-go. They never really had a chance. It sucks, but people are born with severe, crippling health issues all the time and we understand those because of their visible nature, but it is the same thing with a lot of cases of mental health even if you can't tell by just looking at someone. We all want to blame someone, the parents, guns, society, but it may be that this one was born with a not fully developed brain in critical areas, or was just born psychotic. Faulty wiring... it happens.

this is all true
but
if he was born insane
and his parents did not know this?
and they got him a special stock "kid" gun?
nature or nurture
it still falls on his parents

The parents may have realized "something" was up with their kid, but it really may have never occured to them that this type of violent behavior was even conceivable.

that's what i'm saying
is it a blind alley from "something was up" to homicidal maniac

Loulou

Wow, that's a really sad story. It's difficult because there are so many sides, the side of the child, the side of the pregnant woman's family and the side of the father. I'm not sure what's right and I think it's hard without knowing all the ins and outs of that family. Not sure whether the kid rotting in jail would be the answer but he definately needs some serious consequences and counselling.

eyedclaar

chickweed wrote:

that's what i'm saying
is it a blind alley from "something was up" to homicidal maniac

I assume most parents don't have the wherewithal to even wonder if their beloved child might be dangerous, even if they do think the kid is a little weird. I was weird, unusually quiet, kept to myself, all that jazz, but my parents never hesitated to put a gun in my hand at an early age. I mean, what do you do with a kid that doesn't seem normal, assume they're dangerous to others? To me, all kids are weird, gross, loud, and obnoxious, probably why I don't have any, but I still wouldn't want to assume too much about one that didn't fit my definition of normalacy. I mean, short of catching the child skinning the neighbor's pet cat, and what point do you begin treating a strange duck like a potential violent offender?

inmytree

samsonite wrote:

thank you for allowing me to disagree.

as far as what the state should do i would suggest a lot of counseling, a real effort at rehabilitation.

and you're right, if he kills again people will blame the state, but with this kind of logic we should never let anyone out of prison because if you killed once you'll kill again, if you raped once you'll rape again, if you robbed once you'll rob again. (for adults this might not be a bad policy) of course it would be awful if he killed again, but he committed murder as a child, we should try and sentence him as a child.
i wonder, if this were your eleven year old son would have a different point of view? admittedly, i may see things differently if someone in my family had been killed.

anytime...

I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...

the article states this person is not remorseful...and that's after 2 years of counseling...

I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...

as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...

mysticweed

eyedclaar wrote:

chickweed wrote:

that's what i'm saying
is it a blind alley from "something was up" to homicidal maniac

I assume most parents don't have the wherewithal to even wonder if their beloved child might be dangerous, even if they do think the kid is a little weird. I was weird, unusually quiet, kept to myself, all that jazz, but my parents never hesitated to put a gun in my hand at an early age. I mean, what do you do with a kid that doesn't seem normal, assume they're dangerous to others? To me, all kids are weird, gross, loud, and obnoxious, probably why I don't have any, but I still wouldn't want to assume too much about one that didn't fit my definition of normalacy. I mean, short of catching the child skinning the neighbor's pet cat, and what point do you begin treating a strange duck like a potential violent offender?

well, his parents obviously didn't have a fucking clue
and we all know, any fool can have a baby
and i do not know where to draw the line

dateline catches pervs trying to have sex with 13-year-olds
society has an obligation to protect these children
and the pervs are arrested
society has an obligation to protect this child too