well, his parents obviously didn't have a fucking clue
and we all know, any fool can have a baby
and i do not know where to draw the line
dateline catches pervs trying to have sex with 13-year-olds
society has an obligation to protect these children
and the pervs are arrested
society has an obligation to protect this child too
And I guess the question I was trying to ask is – does age even matter when dealing with the genuinely insane? I would think the ‘insane’ aspect outweighs the age issue when it comes to the trial.
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well, his parents obviously didn't have a fucking clue
and we all know, any fool can have a baby
and i do not know where to draw the line
dateline catches pervs trying to have sex with 13-year-olds
society has an obligation to protect these children
and the pervs are arrested
society has an obligation to protect this child too
And I guess the question I was trying to ask is – does age even matter when dealing with the genuinely insane? I would think the ‘insane’ aspect outweighs the age issue when it comes to the trial.
being in an institution for the criminally insane would suck for anyone any age, i'm guessing
if he is tried as an adult, and proved insane, he could be locked up for life anyway
i just feel that he deserves to be treated as a child
of course, he didn't kill any of my people
in different circumstances
my objectivity might just go straight to hell
Without having all of the information on this case available... it's tough to come up one way or the other...
BUT...
i believe that sociopathic adult grow from sociopathic kids. Some people are just wired in a way where they just don't care.
...
I hope that the people involved in this case know all of the truths surrounding this kid and do what is best, not only for the kid... but, the rest of us living in the same society that he is in.
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I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...
i highly doubt he's getting much, if any, quality counseling in the juvenile detention center.
the article states this person is not remorseful...and that's after 2 years of counseling...
again i doubt there's been much counseling, but even if there has been daily counseling his lack of admitting to the crime could very possibly be a legal move (a point made earlier, by another, whose name escapes me).
I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...
so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.
as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...
that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.
tell me more about these famous child murders you know...I'm intrigued....
Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.
SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...
that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.
"The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence ..." Even after his pregnant girlfriend got killed. Goes to show....
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as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...
that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.
"The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence ..." Even after his pregnant girlfriend got killed. Goes to show....
You never know maybe he the father told the child to do this and that there wouldn't be any consequences. :shock:
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I find it interesting that a child of 10 or 11 can be regarded as criminally responsible and tried as an adult, and yet a 17 year old can be jailed for 10 years for getting a blow job from his 15 year old girlfriend. So following this logic an 11 year old who shoots a gun at someone is fully responsible and competent for his actions, but a 15 year old who sucks a cock has no idea what she's doing.
for me, his age is not an issue...his actions are...
Of course his actions are an issue, but if you don't accept that his age played a part in how deeply he considered or understood the import or consequences of his actions then you are refusing to consider a crucial and inescapable factor of his actions. It's clear you want to see things as black and white, right or wrong. But it's rarely that straightforward, it's rarely that simple. And it is certainly not in this case.
the kid's lawyers are failing to help the kid by declaring him not guilty. The prosecutors have noted they are charging him as an adult because he has failed to show any remorse for the alleged crime. Without having the kid explain why he did it and show he is truly sorry and remorseful (and therefore a candidate for rehabilitation), I say lock him up forever if found guilty.
The state want to try him as an adult because he has shown no remorse, but they fail to consider the fact that he may not yet have developed the capacity to feel remorse, because he is still a child. In other words, even using the prosecutors' argument it remains wholly illogical to try him as an adult.
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I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...
so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.
A very good point. The whole point is that, no matter how you spin it, a child is not an adult, and treating him like an adult won't make him one any faster. His action are, no matter how terrible, the actions of a child. They should be punished, but according to his status as a child. He is not an adult and there is no justification for treating him as such.
93: Slane
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07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
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I think this kind of incident says more about his parents and/or his surroundings - even the society as a whole - than about him.
I mean, what kind of an environment teaches an 11 year old that killing his mother is o.k?
I don't think anyone here's saying that the mind of an eleven year old resembles a blank slate - I agree that an eleven year old knows the difference betwen right and wrong - but I don't think any 11 year old should be held totally responsible for a crime of such severity. I'd say somewhere along the line his conditioning has taken an ugly turn.
I have never, never, never, never understood the concept of trying someone as an adult when, in all other aspects of life, they are NOT CONSIDERED AN ADULT. Apparently the only determining factor is the sensationalism of the crime.
I think they should be tried as juveniles up until their 17 year and 364th day. If they commit the crime after that, try them as an adult.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...
i highly doubt he's getting much, if any, quality counseling in the juvenile detention center.
the article states this person is not remorseful...and that's after 2 years of counseling...
again i doubt there's been much counseling, but even if there has been daily counseling his lack of admitting to the crime could very possibly be a legal move (a point made earlier, by another, whose name escapes me).
I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...
so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.
as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...
that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.
you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...
and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...
we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....yet, they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
tell me more about these famous child murders you know...I'm intrigued....
Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.
SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
that's nice...a feel good story indeed...
I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...
Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.
SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
that's nice...a feel good story indeed...
I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...
You're starting to be a bit flippant now. Mary Bell's story is far from a feel good one. And no, after her capture and during her trial she did not show remorse. She was a very troubled child from an abusive home and she could not show/understand compassion. It took a number of years of being followed and just plain growing up to be able to come to that point. Empathy (therefore remorse) is a higher brain function which is not fully developed in an 11 year old. The parts of the brain that control some of these functions (eg emotions & self control) mature from puberty to young adulthood. Though not showing remorse does not mean that the child does not understand that what he/she has done is wrong.
it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
For the reasons I've already mentioned, and that redrock just elaborated on, whether or not a child shows remorse cannot be a legitimate criterion for whether he - or any child - should be tried as an adult. All that shows is what I have been saying all along - the reasoning that underpins the legal system is dysfunctional.
I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.
But that's just me.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.
SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
that's nice...a feel good story indeed...
I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...
You're starting to be a bit flippant now. Mary Bell's story is far from a feel good one. And no, after her capture and during her trial she did not show remorse. She was a very troubled child from an abusive home and she could not show/understand compassion. It took a number of years of being followed and just plain growing up to be able to come to that point. Empathy (therefore remorse) is a higher brain function which is not fully developed in an 11 year old. The parts of the brain that control some of these functions (eg emotions & self control) mature from puberty to young adulthood. Though not showing remorse does not mean that the child does not understand that what he/she has done is wrong.
...lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions......
Again, I don't see where you get this from. His actions are not being defended at all.
folks are doing their best to rationalize his actions...blaming the parents, wondering about is up bringing, saying he doesn't know right from wrong, claiming that this kid is not getting any "good" counseling...
as for Mary...you brought her up as some sort of great example of how this kid can be molded into a model citizen...I say good for her...
anyway, y'all know better the I, so let's let this fella out at 21...everyone can feel better then...
this kid is charged with taking a shotgun and killing a pregnant women...his 7 year old sister said she saw him with the gun around the time of the shooting...gun residue was found on his clothing...he's claiming he didn;'t did do it...
I say let the courts decide...if they charge him as adult...fine....if they charge him as a juvenile...that's fine too...maybe he'll be just like Mary...
Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.
But that's just me.
I wasn’t outraged and my reasoning isn’t clouded. It was a joke… sort of. I like the idea of bears eating people, but that’s just me. I like bears and I don’t like people. My comment was based on my suspicion that this kid is acutely sick in the head and counseling and rehab won’t really change that. It’s like expecting a person born with one arm to suddenly grow another just because they went to counseling. When I was sent to a counselor for criminal behavior, I said exactly what they wanted to hear until I was basically excused with a clean bill of mental health. Meanwhile, I was still as violent and dangerous as ever. True psychos are master liars. This kid doesn’t even have the wherewithal to fake empathy or remorse, so maybe we should learn something from his honesty and realize just how sick he is upstairs. Something is certainly missing, or is woefully underdeveloped, but in my opinion, it probably isn’t something he will develop as he ages. Or, he might just learn to keep his feelings, or lack thereof, to himself and start smiling like a normal person. That’s basically what I do, but I promise you don’t ever want to push me, as I can become downright unreasonable in a split second. I may have learned to control myself better than when I was young, but the crazies are still floating around up there. I guess I’m fortunate that I never killed anyone, but if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have expected a bunch of people to come out of the woodwork making excuses for me.
Also, do you not remember being 13? I do and I had no delusions about what guns are capable of. This kid had his own shotgun, designed especially for his age, I guarantee he had used it before and knew full well what the end result would look like, but he did it anyway. Again, I’m not saying he should be tried as an adult; he should be treated as insanely dangerous. Now, that’s just my initial thoughts on the subject based on what little information I have at my disposal.
Also, I know I’d rather be eaten by a bear than spend my life in prison, or the crazy house, or even doped up on synthetic mood altering drugs. So, what’s good for the goose…
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it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
For the reasons I've already mentioned, and that redrock just elaborated on, whether or not a child shows remorse cannot be a legitimate criterion for whether he - or any child - should be tried as an adult. All that shows is what I have been saying all along - the reasoning that underpins the legal system is dysfunctional.
I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.
But that's just me.
tell us how to fix the dysfunctional system you seem to know so much about...I'm curious...
I do find it amusing that you claim others are emotional about this and that you are not...for me, I'm basing my stance on experience and what I've read on the case...
as for the subjective speculation you complain of...the burger king comment was in response to someones subjective speculation...no one knows how this kid will end up...you don't and I don't...
perhaps we can have the nature vs nurture discussion another day..."some folks are born to be in prison" vs. "oh that poor little one was turned into a monster by is parents"...personally, I think everything is a combination of nature and nurture...
anyway, I'm still curious why we don't have more 11 year olds killing people....you know, since they brains are not yet developed...no one seems to want to touch that point...folks only want to blame the "system"...
This might be true that some are born broken but I feel it is a combination
of factors though not just this that makes a killer.
If someone is born into a loving family who does not ignore nor wear blinders, the broken at birth still have a chance with appropriate help. They are destined to repeat the love they know.
Those that do not stand a chance are those that are victims from birth. Unspeakable trauma that breaks even the healthiest minds. Evil begets evil.
In this case I don't think this boy is evil. His motives we can guess. I don't know how he was raised but it was a combination of factors that drove him to this.
He needs to be in a mental health treatment center for at least as long as he has walked this earth.
Into his mid twenties when the mind is actually matured enough to understand consequences
and to deal with why he perceived this woman and the unborn child as a threat.
I am hopeful he can be fixed.
There is definitely a problem with the judicial system of a 'civilised' country that tries children as adults in adult courts with life sentences and no chance of rehabilitation.
Just as a reminder:
"Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18."
This might be true that some are born broken but I feel it is a combination
of factors though not just this that makes a killer.
If someone is born into a loving family who does not ignore nor wear blinders, the broken at birth still have a chance with appropriate help. They are destined to repeat the love they know.
Those that do not stand a chance are those that are victims from birth. Unspeakable trauma that breaks even the healthiest minds. Evil begets evil.
In this case I don't think this boy is evil. His motives we can guess. I don't know how he was raised but it was a combination of factors that drove him to this.
He needs to be in a mental health treatment center for at least as long as he has walked this earth.
Into his mid twenties when the mind is actually matured enough to understand consequences
and to deal with why he perceived this woman and the unborn child as a threat.
I am hopeful he can be fixed.
I agree perfectly Pandora.
I think it is a combination of things.. and thats precisely why we cant give up on this kid. He can still be shaped. He IS still being shaped and will be for a long time.
inmytree: I dont think people in this thread are trying to rationalize what he did at all. Most are just dissecting what went wrong and trying to decide if there is a path of betterment.. Perhaps Eyed is right and he is wired wrong, but we need to dig a little deeper to figure it out before we lock him up and throw away the key.
Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.
But that's just me.
I wasn’t outraged and my reasoning isn’t clouded. It was a joke… sort of. I like the idea of bears eating people, but that’s just me. I like bears and I don’t like people. My comment was based on my suspicion that this kid is acutely sick in the head and counseling and rehab won’t really change that. It’s like expecting a person born with one arm to suddenly grow another just because they went to counseling. When I was sent to a counselor for criminal behavior, I said exactly what they wanted to hear until I was basically excused with a clean bill of mental health. Meanwhile, I was still as violent and dangerous as ever. True psychos are master liars. This kid doesn’t even have the wherewithal to fake empathy or remorse, so maybe we should learn something from his honesty and realize just how sick he is upstairs. Something is certainly missing, or is woefully underdeveloped, but in my opinion, it probably isn’t something he will develop as he ages. Or, he might just learn to keep his feelings, or lack thereof, to himself and start smiling like a normal person. That’s basically what I do, but I promise you don’t ever want to push me, as I can become downright unreasonable in a split second. I may have learned to control myself better than when I was young, but the crazies are still floating around up there. I guess I’m fortunate that I never killed anyone, but if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have expected a bunch of people to come out of the woodwork making excuses for me.
Also, do you not remember being 13? I do and I had no delusions about what guns are capable of. This kid had his own shotgun, designed especially for his age, I guarantee he had used it before and knew full well what the end result would look like, but he did it anyway. Again, I’m not saying he should be tried as an adult; he should be treated as insanely dangerous. Now, that’s just my initial thoughts on the subject based on what little information I have at my disposal.
Also, I know I’d rather be eaten by a bear than spend my life in prison, or the crazy house, or even doped up on synthetic mood altering drugs. So, what’s good for the goose…
is anyone else excited about what happens to the goose in this story? i for one cannot wait!!!
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
tell us how to fix the dysfunctional system you seem to know so much about...I'm curious...
See, now, this is the kind of snide comment i was talking about earlier. I'm not an expert, nor have I ever claimed to be, but it doesn't take a qualified plumber to know when a pipe is leaking. So let's leave that there, shall we? I think you have a tendency to be needlessly condescending and snotty and it does neither you, nor your position any favours.
...no one knows how this kid will end up...you don't and I don't...
Which is precisely the point I was making. But if you don't know how he will end up, or even why he did what he did, how do you justify your uncompromising certainty in how he should be handled? It should be dealt with in a reasonable way, as I outlined earlier, and not just a knee-jerk reaction.
personally, I think everything is a combination of nature and nurture...
A fair point and I'm not saying anything different to it. But if that's the case, again it undermines the notion that there's only one solution, when you haven't even figured out his problem yet.
And since you have acknowledged a role for nature, surely you can see that it is in the nature of a child to not be fully developed mentally or morally any more than physically.
anyway, I'm still curious why we don't have more 11 year olds killing people....you know, since they brains are not yet developed...no one seems to want to touch that point...folks only want to blame the "system"...
You seem to be relentlessly missing the point that what I am blaming the system for is not what he did, but what it is doing in response, by seeking, with not a shred of legitimacy, to try a child as an adult. That's the point I have made repeatedly since the OP, and it is you who has - not once - dared to touch that point.
But to "touch" yours, I'm curious on that too. I'm sure this particular child has many factors that we don't know (and as many others on here HAVE said) that contributed to why he did what he did. Once again, I'll say, to admit we don't know why just illustrates that we are all unqualified to say he's a lost cause, to just lock him up and forget about it. And unjustified to try him as an adu;t.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...
true, but it's not a baseless assumption. i have friends and family who have spent time in the juvenile correction system and say what little "counseling" there is was a joke.
I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...
and let's not forget that it was you who first assumed he was getting "more counseling than 1000 people receive in a lifetime," which fits your narrative. don't act like i'm the only one with a presupposition.
and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...
again i ask, does acting out an adult action make you an adult? does punching a ballot make you mature enough to do so? does having sex at 14 make you mature enough to handle the responsibility of an adult relationship, or mature enough to be responsible for a child? the answer is obviously NO, so why is this different?
we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....
no one is defending his actions, we are trying to understand the motive for his actions and the environment that produced his thought process. what i am defending is the idea that he should be tried as a child. the two are very different.
...they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...
you're right, we, you and i, don't have to deal with him, but neither of us is suggesting that dealing with him would be easy. either way, it doesn't disqualify you or i from debating the issue.
I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
it has been pointed out by others but bears repeating, to be remorseful you are admitting guilt, which by extension means that in order to be tried as a child he must admit that he has committed the crime. there's a slight conflict of interest in this philosophy. it's as if the judge is strong arming this kid into confessing, a plea bargain of sorts.
and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
you're right again, people are clouded by emotion. people who are angry that this innocent lady was shot and killed, people who want the killer to pay, people who think the world is black and white and if you kill someone you go to jail for life, regardless of your age/maturity/understanding, and regardless of the environment/circumstances that surround each case. you're right, people are emotionally driven, but it's not just the people who disagree with you; you and your side are emotionally driven as well.
you should consider the idea that people who disagree with you are not just irrational bleeding-hearts, and that maybe we are looking at this with thought and reason, just like you. maybe we just see this from a different angle.
tell us how to fix the dysfunctional system you seem to know so much about...I'm curious...
See, now, this is the kind of snide comment i was talking about earlier. I'm not an expert, nor have I ever claimed to be, but it doesn't take a qualified plumber to know when a pipe is leaking. So let's leave that there, shall we? I think you have a tendency to be needlessly condescending and snotty and it does neither you, nor your position any favours.
...no one knows how this kid will end up...you don't and I don't...
Which is precisely the point I was making. But if you don't know how he will end up, or even why he did what he did, how do you justify your uncompromising certainty in how he should be handled? It should be dealt with in a reasonable way, as I outlined earlier, and not just a knee-jerk reaction.
personally, I think everything is a combination of nature and nurture...
A fair point and I'm not saying anything different to it. But if that's the case, again it undermines the notion that there's only one solution, when you haven't even figured out his problem yet.
And since you have acknowledged a role for nature, surely you can see that it is in the nature of a child to not be fully developed mentally or morally any more than physically.
anyway, I'm still curious why we don't have more 11 year olds killing people....you know, since they brains are not yet developed...no one seems to want to touch that point...folks only want to blame the "system"...
You seem to be relentlessly missing the point that what I am blaming the system for is not what he did, but what it is doing in response, by seeking, with not a shred of legitimacy, to try a child as an adult. That's the point I have made repeatedly since the OP, and it is you who has - not once - dared to touch that point.
But to "touch" yours, I'm curious on that too. I'm sure this particular child has many factors that we don't know (and as many others on here HAVE said) that contributed to why he did what he did. Once again, I'll say, to admit we don't know why just illustrates that we are all unqualified to say he's a lost cause, to just lock him up and forget about it. And unjustified to try him as an adu;t.
if you're no expert, how can you claim a system is dysfunctional...? That's all I'm saying...if you think my comment is snide, so be it...but I stand by it...and we're not talking about a leaky pipe, we're talking about a kid you murdered a pregnant woman...
to be honest, I'm tired of debating this...you have your views, I have mine...I just happen to have some experience and you don't...but you seem to know more...that's fine...
I think the response of the judicial system in addressing this matter is appropriate...
I think it comes down to this, you want this kid walking the streets at 21...I don't...
you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...
true, but it's not a baseless assumption. i have friends and family who have spent time in the juvenile correction system and say what little "counseling" there is was a joke.
I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...
and let's not forget that it was you who first assumed he was getting "more counseling than 1000 people receive in a lifetime," which fits your narrative. don't act like i'm the only one with a presupposition.
and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...
again i ask, does acting out an adult action make you an adult? does punching a ballot make you mature enough to do so? does having sex at 14 make you mature enough to handle the responsibility of an adult relationship, or mature enough to be responsible for a child? the answer is obviously NO, so why is this different?
we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....
no one is defending his actions, we are trying to understand the motive for his actions and the environment that produced his thought process. what i am defending is the idea that he should be tried as a child. the two are very different.
...they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...
you're right, we, you and i, don't have to deal with him, but neither of us is suggesting that dealing with him would be easy. either way, it doesn't disqualify you or i from debating the issue.
I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
it has been pointed out by others but bears repeating, to be remorseful you are admitting guilt, which by extension means that in order to be tried as a child he must admit that he has committed the crime. there's a slight conflict of interest in this philosophy. it's as if the judge is strong arming this kid into confessing, a plea bargain of sorts.
and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
you're right again, people are clouded by emotion. people who are angry that this innocent lady was shot and killed, people who want the killer to pay, people who think the world is black and white and if you kill someone you go to jail for life, regardless of your age/maturity/understanding, and regardless of the environment/circumstances that surround each case. you're right, people are emotionally driven, but it's not just the people who disagree with you; you and your side are emotionally driven as well.
you should consider the idea that people who disagree with you are not just irrational bleeding-hearts, and that maybe we are looking at this with thought and reason, just like you. maybe we just see this from a different angle.
sure...fine...you and others want this kid to out on the streets at age 21...I don't....
I hope he doesn't move next door to you and yours...
There is definitely a problem with the judicial system of a 'civilised' country that tries children as adults in adult courts with life sentences and no chance of rehabilitation.
Just as a reminder:
"Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18."
if the US were uncivilized this kid would have been hung by now...I think by taking the time to properly address this issue via the courts actually proves that we are a civilized nation...
Comments
And I guess the question I was trying to ask is – does age even matter when dealing with the genuinely insane? I would think the ‘insane’ aspect outweighs the age issue when it comes to the trial.
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being in an institution for the criminally insane would suck for anyone any age, i'm guessing
if he is tried as an adult, and proved insane, he could be locked up for life anyway
i just feel that he deserves to be treated as a child
of course, he didn't kill any of my people
in different circumstances
my objectivity might just go straight to hell
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
BUT...
i believe that sociopathic adult grow from sociopathic kids. Some people are just wired in a way where they just don't care.
...
I hope that the people involved in this case know all of the truths surrounding this kid and do what is best, not only for the kid... but, the rest of us living in the same society that he is in.
Hail, Hail!!!
i highly doubt he's getting much, if any, quality counseling in the juvenile detention center.
again i doubt there's been much counseling, but even if there has been daily counseling his lack of admitting to the crime could very possibly be a legal move (a point made earlier, by another, whose name escapes me).
EDIT:
so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.
that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.
Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.
SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
"The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence ..." Even after his pregnant girlfriend got killed. Goes to show....
You never know maybe he the father told the child to do this and that there wouldn't be any consequences. :shock:
Peace
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Can you please point me to where anyone in this thread mentioned giving him a free pass? Thanks.
The state want to try him as an adult because he has shown no remorse, but they fail to consider the fact that he may not yet have developed the capacity to feel remorse, because he is still a child. In other words, even using the prosecutors' argument it remains wholly illogical to try him as an adult.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
I mean, what kind of an environment teaches an 11 year old that killing his mother is o.k?
I don't think anyone here's saying that the mind of an eleven year old resembles a blank slate - I agree that an eleven year old knows the difference betwen right and wrong - but I don't think any 11 year old should be held totally responsible for a crime of such severity. I'd say somewhere along the line his conditioning has taken an ugly turn.
I think they should be tried as juveniles up until their 17 year and 364th day. If they commit the crime after that, try them as an adult.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...
and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...
we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....yet, they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...
and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...
here's the latest...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... 04083.html
read the entire thread and you will read what you seek....you're welcome....
that's nice...a feel good story indeed...
I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...
You're starting to be a bit flippant now. Mary Bell's story is far from a feel good one. And no, after her capture and during her trial she did not show remorse. She was a very troubled child from an abusive home and she could not show/understand compassion. It took a number of years of being followed and just plain growing up to be able to come to that point. Empathy (therefore remorse) is a higher brain function which is not fully developed in an 11 year old. The parts of the brain that control some of these functions (eg emotions & self control) mature from puberty to young adulthood. Though not showing remorse does not mean that the child does not understand that what he/she has done is wrong.
Again, I don't see where you get this from. His actions are not being defended at all.
Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.
But that's just me.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
folks are doing their best to rationalize his actions...blaming the parents, wondering about is up bringing, saying he doesn't know right from wrong, claiming that this kid is not getting any "good" counseling...
as for Mary...you brought her up as some sort of great example of how this kid can be molded into a model citizen...I say good for her...
anyway, y'all know better the I, so let's let this fella out at 21...everyone can feel better then...
this kid is charged with taking a shotgun and killing a pregnant women...his 7 year old sister said she saw him with the gun around the time of the shooting...gun residue was found on his clothing...he's claiming he didn;'t did do it...
I say let the courts decide...if they charge him as adult...fine....if they charge him as a juvenile...that's fine too...maybe he'll be just like Mary...
I wasn’t outraged and my reasoning isn’t clouded. It was a joke… sort of. I like the idea of bears eating people, but that’s just me. I like bears and I don’t like people. My comment was based on my suspicion that this kid is acutely sick in the head and counseling and rehab won’t really change that. It’s like expecting a person born with one arm to suddenly grow another just because they went to counseling. When I was sent to a counselor for criminal behavior, I said exactly what they wanted to hear until I was basically excused with a clean bill of mental health. Meanwhile, I was still as violent and dangerous as ever. True psychos are master liars. This kid doesn’t even have the wherewithal to fake empathy or remorse, so maybe we should learn something from his honesty and realize just how sick he is upstairs. Something is certainly missing, or is woefully underdeveloped, but in my opinion, it probably isn’t something he will develop as he ages. Or, he might just learn to keep his feelings, or lack thereof, to himself and start smiling like a normal person. That’s basically what I do, but I promise you don’t ever want to push me, as I can become downright unreasonable in a split second. I may have learned to control myself better than when I was young, but the crazies are still floating around up there. I guess I’m fortunate that I never killed anyone, but if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have expected a bunch of people to come out of the woodwork making excuses for me.
Also, do you not remember being 13? I do and I had no delusions about what guns are capable of. This kid had his own shotgun, designed especially for his age, I guarantee he had used it before and knew full well what the end result would look like, but he did it anyway. Again, I’m not saying he should be tried as an adult; he should be treated as insanely dangerous. Now, that’s just my initial thoughts on the subject based on what little information I have at my disposal.
Also, I know I’d rather be eaten by a bear than spend my life in prison, or the crazy house, or even doped up on synthetic mood altering drugs. So, what’s good for the goose…
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tell us how to fix the dysfunctional system you seem to know so much about...I'm curious...
I do find it amusing that you claim others are emotional about this and that you are not...for me, I'm basing my stance on experience and what I've read on the case...
as for the subjective speculation you complain of...the burger king comment was in response to someones subjective speculation...no one knows how this kid will end up...you don't and I don't...
perhaps we can have the nature vs nurture discussion another day..."some folks are born to be in prison" vs. "oh that poor little one was turned into a monster by is parents"...personally, I think everything is a combination of nature and nurture...
anyway, I'm still curious why we don't have more 11 year olds killing people....you know, since they brains are not yet developed...no one seems to want to touch that point...folks only want to blame the "system"...
anyhoo...it's been fun...take care...
of factors though not just this that makes a killer.
If someone is born into a loving family who does not ignore nor wear blinders, the broken at birth still have a chance with appropriate help. They are destined to repeat the love they know.
Those that do not stand a chance are those that are victims from birth. Unspeakable trauma that breaks even the healthiest minds. Evil begets evil.
In this case I don't think this boy is evil. His motives we can guess. I don't know how he was raised but it was a combination of factors that drove him to this.
He needs to be in a mental health treatment center for at least as long as he has walked this earth.
Into his mid twenties when the mind is actually matured enough to understand consequences
and to deal with why he perceived this woman and the unborn child as a threat.
I am hopeful he can be fixed.
Just as a reminder:
"Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18."
I agree perfectly Pandora.
I think it is a combination of things.. and thats precisely why we cant give up on this kid. He can still be shaped. He IS still being shaped and will be for a long time.
inmytree: I dont think people in this thread are trying to rationalize what he did at all. Most are just dissecting what went wrong and trying to decide if there is a path of betterment.. Perhaps Eyed is right and he is wired wrong, but we need to dig a little deeper to figure it out before we lock him up and throw away the key.
is anyone else excited about what happens to the goose in this story? i for one cannot wait!!!
Which is precisely the point I was making. But if you don't know how he will end up, or even why he did what he did, how do you justify your uncompromising certainty in how he should be handled? It should be dealt with in a reasonable way, as I outlined earlier, and not just a knee-jerk reaction.
A fair point and I'm not saying anything different to it. But if that's the case, again it undermines the notion that there's only one solution, when you haven't even figured out his problem yet.
And since you have acknowledged a role for nature, surely you can see that it is in the nature of a child to not be fully developed mentally or morally any more than physically.
You seem to be relentlessly missing the point that what I am blaming the system for is not what he did, but what it is doing in response, by seeking, with not a shred of legitimacy, to try a child as an adult. That's the point I have made repeatedly since the OP, and it is you who has - not once - dared to touch that point.
But to "touch" yours, I'm curious on that too. I'm sure this particular child has many factors that we don't know (and as many others on here HAVE said) that contributed to why he did what he did. Once again, I'll say, to admit we don't know why just illustrates that we are all unqualified to say he's a lost cause, to just lock him up and forget about it. And unjustified to try him as an adu;t.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
true, but it's not a baseless assumption. i have friends and family who have spent time in the juvenile correction system and say what little "counseling" there is was a joke.
and let's not forget that it was you who first assumed he was getting "more counseling than 1000 people receive in a lifetime," which fits your narrative. don't act like i'm the only one with a presupposition.
again i ask, does acting out an adult action make you an adult? does punching a ballot make you mature enough to do so? does having sex at 14 make you mature enough to handle the responsibility of an adult relationship, or mature enough to be responsible for a child? the answer is obviously NO, so why is this different?
no one is defending his actions, we are trying to understand the motive for his actions and the environment that produced his thought process. what i am defending is the idea that he should be tried as a child. the two are very different.
you're right, we, you and i, don't have to deal with him, but neither of us is suggesting that dealing with him would be easy. either way, it doesn't disqualify you or i from debating the issue.
it has been pointed out by others but bears repeating, to be remorseful you are admitting guilt, which by extension means that in order to be tried as a child he must admit that he has committed the crime. there's a slight conflict of interest in this philosophy. it's as if the judge is strong arming this kid into confessing, a plea bargain of sorts.
you're right again, people are clouded by emotion. people who are angry that this innocent lady was shot and killed, people who want the killer to pay, people who think the world is black and white and if you kill someone you go to jail for life, regardless of your age/maturity/understanding, and regardless of the environment/circumstances that surround each case. you're right, people are emotionally driven, but it's not just the people who disagree with you; you and your side are emotionally driven as well.
you should consider the idea that people who disagree with you are not just irrational bleeding-hearts, and that maybe we are looking at this with thought and reason, just like you. maybe we just see this from a different angle.
if you're no expert, how can you claim a system is dysfunctional...? That's all I'm saying...if you think my comment is snide, so be it...but I stand by it...and we're not talking about a leaky pipe, we're talking about a kid you murdered a pregnant woman...
to be honest, I'm tired of debating this...you have your views, I have mine...I just happen to have some experience and you don't...but you seem to know more...that's fine...
I think the response of the judicial system in addressing this matter is appropriate...
I think it comes down to this, you want this kid walking the streets at 21...I don't...
sure...fine...you and others want this kid to out on the streets at age 21...I don't....
I hope he doesn't move next door to you and yours...
if the US were uncivilized this kid would have been hung by now...I think by taking the time to properly address this issue via the courts actually proves that we are a civilized nation...