13 year-old could get life in prison???

eyedclaar

chickweed wrote:

well, his parents obviously didn't have a fucking clue
and we all know, any fool can have a baby
and i do not know where to draw the line

dateline catches pervs trying to have sex with 13-year-olds
society has an obligation to protect these children
and the pervs are arrested
society has an obligation to protect this child too

And I guess the question I was trying to ask is – does age even matter when dealing with the genuinely insane? I would think the ‘insane’ aspect outweighs the age issue when it comes to the trial.

mysticweed

eyedclaar wrote:

chickweed wrote:

well, his parents obviously didn't have a fucking clue
and we all know, any fool can have a baby
and i do not know where to draw the line

dateline catches pervs trying to have sex with 13-year-olds
society has an obligation to protect these children
and the pervs are arrested
society has an obligation to protect this child too

And I guess the question I was trying to ask is – does age even matter when dealing with the genuinely insane? I would think the ‘insane’ aspect outweighs the age issue when it comes to the trial.

being in an institution for the criminally insane would suck for anyone any age, i'm guessing
if he is tried as an adult, and proved insane, he could be locked up for life anyway
i just feel that he deserves to be treated as a child

of course, he didn't kill any of my people
in different circumstances
my objectivity might just go straight to hell

Cosmo

Without having all of the information on this case available... it's tough to come up one way or the other...
BUT...
i believe that sociopathic adult grow from sociopathic kids. Some people are just wired in a way where they just don't care.
...
I hope that the people involved in this case know all of the truths surrounding this kid and do what is best, not only for the kid... but, the rest of us living in the same society that he is in.

samsonite

inmytree wrote:

anytime...

I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...

i highly doubt he's getting much, if any, quality counseling in the juvenile detention center.

inmytree wrote:

the article states this person is not remorseful...and that's after 2 years of counseling...

again i doubt there's been much counseling, but even if there has been daily counseling his lack of admitting to the crime could very possibly be a legal move (a point made earlier, by another, whose name escapes me).

EDIT:

redrock wrote:

I'm sure it's a 'lawyer' thing.

inmytree wrote:

I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...

so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.

inmytree wrote:

as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...

that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.

redrock

inmytree wrote:

tell me more about these famous child murders you know...I'm intrigued....

Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.

SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

redrock

samsonite wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...

that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.

"The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence ..." Even after his pregnant girlfriend got killed. Goes to show....

g under p

redrock wrote:

samsonite wrote:

inmytree wrote:

as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...

that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.

"The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence ..." Even after his pregnant girlfriend got killed. Goes to show....

You never know maybe he the father told the child to do this and that there wouldn't be any consequences. :shock:

Peace

Byrnzie

inmytree wrote:

I don't give him a free pass based on his age..

Can you please point me to where anyone in this thread mentioned giving him a free pass? Thanks.

Byrnzie

I find it interesting that a child of 10 or 11 can be regarded as criminally responsible and tried as an adult, and yet a 17 year old can be jailed for 10 years for getting a blow job from his 15 year old girlfriend. So following this logic an 11 year old who shoots a gun at someone is fully responsible and competent for his actions, but a 15 year old who sucks a cock has no idea what she's doing.

wolfamongwolves

inmytree wrote:

I think your issue is his age...

for me, his age is not an issue...his actions are...

Of course his actions are an issue, but if you don't accept that his age played a part in how deeply he considered or understood the import or consequences of his actions then you are refusing to consider a crucial and inescapable factor of his actions. It's clear you want to see things as black and white, right or wrong. But it's rarely that straightforward, it's rarely that simple. And it is certainly not in this case.

Jason P wrote:

the kid's lawyers are failing to help the kid by declaring him not guilty. The prosecutors have noted they are charging him as an adult because he has failed to show any remorse for the alleged crime. Without having the kid explain why he did it and show he is truly sorry and remorseful (and therefore a candidate for rehabilitation), I say lock him up forever if found guilty.

The state want to try him as an adult because he has shown no remorse, but they fail to consider the fact that he may not yet have developed the capacity to feel remorse, because he is still a child. In other words, even using the prosecutors' argument it remains wholly illogical to try him as an adult.

wolfamongwolves

samsonite wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...

so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.

A very good point. The whole point is that, no matter how you spin it, a child is not an adult, and treating him like an adult won't make him one any faster. His action are, no matter how terrible, the actions of a child. They should be punished, but according to his status as a child. He is not an adult and there is no justification for treating him as such.

Byrnzie

I think this kind of incident says more about his parents and/or his surroundings - even the society as a whole - than about him.
I mean, what kind of an environment teaches an 11 year old that killing his mother is o.k?

I don't think anyone here's saying that the mind of an eleven year old resembles a blank slate - I agree that an eleven year old knows the difference betwen right and wrong - but I don't think any 11 year old should be held totally responsible for a crime of such severity. I'd say somewhere along the line his conditioning has taken an ugly turn.

know1

I have never, never, never, never understood the concept of trying someone as an adult when, in all other aspects of life, they are NOT CONSIDERED AN ADULT. Apparently the only determining factor is the sensationalism of the crime.

I think they should be tried as juveniles up until their 17 year and 364th day. If they commit the crime after that, try them as an adult.

inmytree

samsonite wrote:

inmytree wrote:

anytime...

I don't disagree that this person/murderer needs a lot of counseling...I'd be willing to bet he's received more counseling in the past two years than 1000 people will receive in a lifetime...

i highly doubt he's getting much, if any, quality counseling in the juvenile detention center.

inmytree wrote:

the article states this person is not remorseful...and that's after 2 years of counseling...

again i doubt there's been much counseling, but even if there has been daily counseling his lack of admitting to the crime could very possibly be a legal move (a point made earlier, by another, whose name escapes me).

EDIT:

redrock wrote:

I'm sure it's a 'lawyer' thing.

inmytree wrote:

I see you focus on the him being a child...well, he stopped being a child when blew that ladies head off with a shotgun...

so by making adult decisions we become an adult? does this mean that voting makes you an adult? does getting married or having children make you mature? there are holes in this logic.

inmytree wrote:

as for the hypothetical question of "if it were my son"...would I have a different point of view...? I think answer is "no"...if my son was a cold blooded killer...I would want him to be locked away forever and a day...

that level of consistency is admirable, but i'm not sure it would be that easy in reality. thankfully it's unlikely we'll ever have know for sure.

you assume he is not getting on counseling...which fits your narrative...

and this kid moved to a different level when he pulled the trigger...

we can go round and round about this...as I see it, lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions....yet, they are not the one who have to deal with him...it's easy to sit back and be outraged...it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...

and everyone would feel better...I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...

here's the latest...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162- ... 04083.html

inmytree

Byrnzie wrote:

inmytree wrote:

I don't give him a free pass based on his age..

Can you please point me to where anyone in this thread mentioned giving him a free pass? Thanks.

read the entire thread and you will read what you seek....you're welcome....

inmytree

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

tell me more about these famous child murders you know...I'm intrigued....

Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.

SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

that's nice...a feel good story indeed...

I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...

redrock

inmytree wrote:

redrock wrote:

Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.

SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

that's nice...a feel good story indeed...

I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...

You're starting to be a bit flippant now. Mary Bell's story is far from a feel good one. And no, after her capture and during her trial she did not show remorse. She was a very troubled child from an abusive home and she could not show/understand compassion. It took a number of years of being followed and just plain growing up to be able to come to that point. Empathy (therefore remorse) is a higher brain function which is not fully developed in an 11 year old. The parts of the brain that control some of these functions (eg emotions & self control) mature from puberty to young adulthood. Though not showing remorse does not mean that the child does not understand that what he/she has done is wrong.

inmytree wrote:

...lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions......

Again, I don't see where you get this from. His actions are not being defended at all.

wolfamongwolves

inmytree wrote:

it's not so easy to deal with this situation...I'd be willing to bet, if this kid had shown an ounce of remorse, we'd not be talking about this as he would be tried as a juvenile...

For the reasons I've already mentioned, and that redrock just elaborated on, whether or not a child shows remorse cannot be a legitimate criterion for whether he - or any child - should be tried as an adult. All that shows is what I have been saying all along - the reasoning that underpins the legal system is dysfunctional.

inmytree wrote:

I really think folks are thinking is clouded by emotion in this case...

Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.

But that's just me.

inmytree

redrock wrote:

inmytree wrote:

redrock wrote:

Not that I know - I know OF.... Mary Bell - prime example. Killed two boys when she was 10. Tried, convicted of manslaughter through diminished responsibility, to be detained at her majesty's pleasure. She was sent to an 'special' school with a secure unit where she was in full time education and receiving psychiatric care. She was released, and is now a 'normal' citizen. As heinous and disturbing her crime was, she was not dismissed as a waste of space and left to rot. She was treated and, as she matured, grew up to be a valid member of society.

SHe was tried in an adult court but this was over 40 years ago. At a more recent case of child killers, it was ruled that being tried in an adult court violates an article (can't remember which one) of the European Convention on Human Rights.

that's nice...a feel good story indeed...

I wonder if Mary showed some remorse, as opposed to this fine, young lad we are discussing...

You're starting to be a bit flippant now. Mary Bell's story is far from a feel good one. And no, after her capture and during her trial she did not show remorse. She was a very troubled child from an abusive home and she could not show/understand compassion. It took a number of years of being followed and just plain growing up to be able to come to that point. Empathy (therefore remorse) is a higher brain function which is not fully developed in an 11 year old. The parts of the brain that control some of these functions (eg emotions & self control) mature from puberty to young adulthood. Though not showing remorse does not mean that the child does not understand that what he/she has done is wrong.

inmytree wrote:

...lot of folks are up in arms over this kid and for some reason feel compelled to defend his actions......

Again, I don't see where you get this from. His actions are not being defended at all.

folks are doing their best to rationalize his actions...blaming the parents, wondering about is up bringing, saying he doesn't know right from wrong, claiming that this kid is not getting any "good" counseling...

as for Mary...you brought her up as some sort of great example of how this kid can be molded into a model citizen...I say good for her...

anyway, y'all know better the I, so let's let this fella out at 21...everyone can feel better then...

this kid is charged with taking a shotgun and killing a pregnant women...his 7 year old sister said she saw him with the gun around the time of the shooting...gun residue was found on his clothing...he's claiming he didn;'t did do it...

I say let the courts decide...if they charge him as adult...fine....if they charge him as a juvenile...that's fine too...maybe he'll be just like Mary...

eyedclaar

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Just speaking for myself here - while yes, I am outraged by what is, in my opinion, a gross miscarriage of justice in the making, I've based my case on reason and logic and common sense inasmuh as I can. I think it's people who base their position on purely subjective speculation (such as "maybe at 30 he'll brutally murder a worker at Burger King because they forgot his fries", "some folks are born to be in prison"), or outright sensationalism ("feed him to a bear", "put him down") are the ones who are letting their outrage cloud their reason.

But that's just me.

I wasn’t outraged and my reasoning isn’t clouded. It was a joke… sort of. I like the idea of bears eating people, but that’s just me. I like bears and I don’t like people. My comment was based on my suspicion that this kid is acutely sick in the head and counseling and rehab won’t really change that. It’s like expecting a person born with one arm to suddenly grow another just because they went to counseling. When I was sent to a counselor for criminal behavior, I said exactly what they wanted to hear until I was basically excused with a clean bill of mental health. Meanwhile, I was still as violent and dangerous as ever. True psychos are master liars. This kid doesn’t even have the wherewithal to fake empathy or remorse, so maybe we should learn something from his honesty and realize just how sick he is upstairs. Something is certainly missing, or is woefully underdeveloped, but in my opinion, it probably isn’t something he will develop as he ages. Or, he might just learn to keep his feelings, or lack thereof, to himself and start smiling like a normal person. That’s basically what I do, but I promise you don’t ever want to push me, as I can become downright unreasonable in a split second. I may have learned to control myself better than when I was young, but the crazies are still floating around up there. I guess I’m fortunate that I never killed anyone, but if I had, I certainly wouldn’t have expected a bunch of people to come out of the woodwork making excuses for me.
Also, do you not remember being 13? I do and I had no delusions about what guns are capable of. This kid had his own shotgun, designed especially for his age, I guarantee he had used it before and knew full well what the end result would look like, but he did it anyway. Again, I’m not saying he should be tried as an adult; he should be treated as insanely dangerous. Now, that’s just my initial thoughts on the subject based on what little information I have at my disposal.
Also, I know I’d rather be eaten by a bear than spend my life in prison, or the crazy house, or even doped up on synthetic mood altering drugs. So, what’s good for the goose…