guns and bullets

redrock · January 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

chime wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

It might save lives caused from gun crime, but not save lives from vilent crime. As seen by UK's higher violence crime rate. Are you concerned abount saving lives or jsut those that are killed by a gun?

If the concern is saving lives then it is surely the 'murder' rate and not the 'violent crime' rate that matters. The UK may have a higher violent crime but the US has a higher murder rate.

From the stats you posted previously

Murder: US .043 - UK .014 - Aus .015

So with guns banned even though the UK has more violent crime it has a 1/3 of the murder rate ... which would suggest that yes banning guns can save lives.

Your right because murders will stop being criminals once guns are banned.

Gun related crime is included in violent crime, and I think this thread is about guns, isn't it? 'Violent' crime is also reported differently. In the UK, an affray is reported as a violent crime, even if no one is injured. In other European countries, someone has to be treated in hospital before an affray is reported as serious crime. In no way am I trying to find excuses to violence but this is to put things in perspective.

I will not repost Dunk's statistics ref gun crime which confirm the highest rate of deaths due to firearms is in the US.

redrock · January 2011

whatsgoingon wrote:

I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. .

But wouldn't that mean much tighter and more stringent controls? Wouldn't that be 'punishing' others (your law abiding citizen), making much harder to exercise their 'right' to own a gun? Is that not an infringement on their rights?

What happens if you get the all clear to purchase firearms, seeing you are a good citizen and mentally stable but then you start having 'issues' (say depression/a breakdown). Does the doctor notify an 'authority' to let them know you are no longer fit to own a firearm. Just like a driver's license can be revoked due to infractions/illness, etc.? Would that also be infringing one's rights?

redrock · January 2011

HeidiJam wrote:

eMMI wrote:

As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.

Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?

Finland is #3 in total crime rate compared to US at #8. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... per-capita
looks like gun laws are not decreasing your crime.

Let's look at proper statistics. Crime is all reported actions that are against the law (illegal download/piracy is included - who of us isn't guilty of that :? ). GUN laws will impact on GUN crime.

See here (same site as you quoted) - let's look at GUN crime... yes the US is at #8 and does Finland rank (or the UK for that matter)? Hmmm... not sure, the list goes to #32 and neither are on it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... 00-000-pop

Now that this is clearer, if you wish to discuss crime in general (but like for like nevertheless), that can be done as well but maybe in a different thread which is not about GUNS.

whatsgoingon · January 2011

redrock wrote:

whatsgoingon wrote:

I would also say if you want to decrees mass shooting you may want to look at our mental health system and realize that is what failed in the AZ. I am pretty sure nobody thinks a mentally unstable person should have any weapon. .

But wouldn't that mean much tighter and more stringent controls? Wouldn't that be 'punishing' others (your law abiding citizen), making much harder to exercise their 'right' to own a gun? Is that not an infringement on their rights?

What happens if you get the all clear to purchase firearms, seeing you are a good citizen and mentally stable but then you start having 'issues' (say depression/a breakdown). Does the doctor notify an 'authority' to let them know you are no longer fit to own a firearm. Just like a driver's license can be revoked due to infractions/illness, etc.? Would that also be infringing one's rights?

The problem most people see is its hard to define "Mentally Unstable". There are obvious cases such as the one in AZ. But if I am really stressed at work and having depression does that define me as mentally unstable. You also have to look at all the state mentally hospitals that are closing through the country and amount of prisons that being built. Just knowing a few people that work as physiologist at prison systems they basically claim that the prison system is not only housing dangerous criminals but also replacement for the mentally ill. The other issue is privacy laws and anybody in the US has heard of HIPAA laws. Once the school noted he was mentally ill then he should have been able to at least be evaluated by a trained professional. I don't know if that option was giving to him ( anybody know?) but it certianly didn't happen because any professional would have seen he was going to do harm to himself and others and notified the authorities.

In the end I don't mind having an instant background check since there is no reason for it to take any longer its all on a computer and can be done that way. If they queried a little more information about me I fine with that as well. Where I have the real problem is where I have to wait/ make multiple trips to places during government hours (hey I work a 9-5 job), and when you try to ban things.

redrock · January 2011

whatsgoingon wrote:

...so if criminals aren't going to follow that law what makes you think they will follow gun laws. The only thing you would be doing would be handicapping honest law abiding people which most gun owners are in the country.

A good number of mass shootings/killing sprees in the US were committed by law abiding citizens who were not criminals but just happened to have access to a legally owned gun (either theirs one belonging to a parent/ spouse/partner) when they flipped.

Godfather. · January 2011

eMMI wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

eMMI wrote:

As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.

Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?

Finland is #3 in total crime rate compared to US at #8. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... per-capita
looks like gun laws are not decreasing your crime.

Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:

ha ha

you already stepped passed the safty zone and you can't go back

thats the LAW !!!

Godfather.

redrock · January 2011

whatsgoingon wrote:

The problem most people see is its hard to define "Mentally Unstable". There are obvious cases such as the one in AZ. But if I am really stressed at work and having depression does that define me as mentally unstable. You also have to look at all the state mentally hospitals that are closing through the country and amount of prisons that being built. Just knowing a few people that work as physiologist at prison systems they basically claim that the prison system is not only housing dangerous criminals but also replacement for the mentally ill. The other issue is privacy laws and anybody in the US has heard of HIPAA laws. Once the school noted he was mentally ill then he should have been able to at least be evaluated by a trained professional. I don't know if that option was giving to him ( anybody know?) but it certianly didn't happen because any professional would have seen he was going to do harm to himself and others and notified the authorities.

In the end I don't mind having an instant background check since there is no reason for it to take any longer its all on a computer and can be done that way. If they queried a little more information about me I fine with that as well. Where I have the real problem is where I have to wait/ make multiple trips to places during government hours (hey I work a 9-5 job), and when you try to ban things.

Depression is considered a mental illness. Could that make you unstable? Maybe? The AZ case seems obvious, but for gun control reasons, it's not. The school noted he had issues but no diagnostic of mental illness - that's not their job. Even if the authorities are notified, if a person has not been officially 'institutionalised' (ie put in a mental institution), then this person can still get a gun.

Instant background checks don't mean anything. As I said, unless you have been convicted of certain serious crimes (not just arrested and charged) or have been a 'guest' at a mental institution and it's on your record, your scot-free. Waiting times can avoid 'spur of the moment' thoughts/actions. Maybe making several trips during working hours could also be a deterrent.

Again, no one is talking bans.

whatsgoingon · January 2011

redrock wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

eMMI wrote:

As the matter of fact, I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. If nothing else, I know damn well that people where I live aren't going around shooting other people after a bad day, cause they happened to have a gun in the closet, and I know that our gun laws are to thank for that.

Nobody is completely safe from bad guys, not unless you live on your very own remote island in the middle of nowhere, but why make the bad guys' job so much easier?

Finland is #3 in total crime rate compared to US at #8. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... per-capita
looks like gun laws are not decreasing your crime.

Let's look at proper statistics. Crime is all reported actions that are against the law (illegal download/piracy is included - who of us isn't guilty of that :? ). GUN laws will impact on GUN crime.

See here (same site as you quoted) - let's look at GUN crime... yes the US is at #8 and does Finland rank (or the UK for that matter)? Hmmm... not sure, the list goes to #32 and neither are on it.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... 00-000-pop

Now that this is clearer, if you wish to discuss crime in general (but like for like nevertheless), that can be done as well but maybe in a different thread which is not about GUNS.

Somebody check a verify my Math below I am lazy. thx!
I if read that right is say 3.6 people die for 100,000 person so extending those numbers it is 3600 people for every 100 million people. I am thinking that's really not that bad. So a quick google tell me there are 307,006,550 people in the US so more math tells me that there about 10800 gun related deaths in the US every year. With out looking to hard the internets says in 2008 (Most recent item in the first search result) There were 13,846 alcohol related driving fatalities. That is about 3K more then gun related deaths so I am not sure why people are up and arms about guns and how bad they are.

JonnyPistachio · January 2011

whatsgoingon wrote:

so I am not sure why people are up and arms about guns and how bad they are.

for starters, I am just sad that the gun laws in AZ were so lax that a 9 year old died along with 5 others. I think the magazine limits is a start. There's no telling if it would've helped, but I personally dont think that is too much of an inconvenience, and its worth a try. There's gotta be something we can do to minimize the needless murders. It might start with identifying the mental problems of potential aggresors, but in conjunction with stricter gun laws, maybe innocent lives could be saved. Why arent the laws in AZ as strict as PA? I dont know. I dont have the answers, but it cant hurt to discuss a compromise. I'm sure these discussions about gun laws are going on all around the US now, sadly they are usually in response to these heinous crimes.

It also seems like these 'whackos' are snapping more and more lately. I just think we need to get with the times and do something before another 9 year old innocent girl is gunned down in a parking lot. to me, 1 of these cases is enough to raise a red flag and discuss a compromise in gun laws. Its probably true though, not much will change because of politicians fears of NRa and such..

eMMI · January 2011

Godfather. wrote:

eMMI wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Finland is #3 in total crime rate compared to US at #8. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_t ... per-capita
looks like gun laws are not decreasing your crime.

Fair enough, but as others have pointed out, this thread is about guns, gun crime and guns used to kill people. :think:

ha ha you already stepped passed the safty zone and you can't go back
thats the LAW !!!

Godfather.

I'm not going back on anything, this thread is about guns (gun related crime, murder etc.) and that's that.

And like redrock already said, in gun crime, US ranks way higher than Finland.

Godfather. · January 2011

what is the population in Finland compared to the United States ?
I just can't imagine Finland being a place where most of the world is trying to become citizens
like here in the US .
and a pretty good percent of crimes are committed by foreigners, how many of the gun crimes are committed by foreigners in the US ?

Godfather.

Godfather. · January 2011

better yet lets look at Finland's neighbor Russia sense we are comparing country to country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

Godfather.

eMMI · January 2011

Godfather. wrote:

what is the population in Finland compared to the United States ?
I just can't imagine Finland being a place where most of the world is trying to become citizens
like here in the US .

Godfather.

5,3 million, not a lot compared to the US.. The awesome thing about statistics though, is that they're per capita.

Most of the world may not be trying to become Finnish citizens (but there are a lot of foreign people living here, immigrants and refugees alike), but I'm sure most of the world isn't trying to become American citizens either.

usamamasan1 · January 2011

I figured most of you against handguns would enjoy this latest print by Fairey and his comments. Only problem is he chose to use statistics from studies that support his case when there are others that paint a different picture. If he mentioned this and not just thrown out numbers he would at least have some credibility.

http://obeygiant.com/headlines/2nd-amen ... more-12717

outside discussion of stats on DHU

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

Godfather. · January 2011

eMMI wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

what is the population in Finland compared to the United States ?
I just can't imagine Finland being a place where most of the world is trying to become citizens
like here in the US .

Godfather.

5,3 million, not a lot compared to the US.. The awesome thing about statistics though, is that they're per capita.

Most of the world may not be trying to become Finnish citizens (but there are a lot of foreign people living here, immigrants and refugees alike), but I'm sure most of the world isn't trying to become American citizens either.

man you sure wouldn't know it by watching the news or going to wal-mart .

Godfather.

eMMI · January 2011

Godfather. wrote:

better yet lets look at Finland's neighbor Russia sense we are comparing country to country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

Godfather.

I don't see how the fact that Russia is next to Finland has anything to do with this.

Anyway, are you comparing US and Russia? "In 2000 it was estimated that nearly 50% of the nation's economy was linked with organized crime." In a country where this kind of thing is and has been going on, of course crime and murder figures are gonna be through the roof.

Godfather. · January 2011

eMMI wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

better yet lets look at Finland's neighbor Russia sense we are comparing country to country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

Godfather.

I don't see how the fact that Russia is next to Finland has anything to do with this.

Anyway, are you comparing US and Russia? "In 2000 it was estimated that nearly 50% of the nation's economy was linked with organized crime." In a country where this kind of thing is and has been going on, of course crime and murder figures are gonna be through the roof.

My son races BMX so we go to a lot of races and have had the pleasure of meeting the BMX gold medalist from Latvia (spelling ?) on many occasions at races and a great kid ta boot,his name is Maris Straumburges..
are you in Finland ? and do you know of this guy ?

Godfather.

dunkman · January 2011

Godfather. wrote:

what is the population in Finland compared to the United States ?
I just can't imagine Finland being a place where most of the world is trying to become citizens
like here in the US .
and a pretty good percent of crimes are committed by foreigners, how many of the gun crimes are committed by foreigners in the US ?

Godfather.

don't be an idiot man... thats almost xenophobic.

also it doesnt matter the population of Finland compared to the US.... its per capita...

dunkman · January 2011

Godfather. wrote:

eMMI wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

better yet lets look at Finland's neighbor Russia sense we are comparing country to country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia

Godfather.

I don't see how the fact that Russia is next to Finland has anything to do with this.

Anyway, are you comparing US and Russia? "In 2000 it was estimated that nearly 50% of the nation's economy was linked with organized crime." In a country where this kind of thing is and has been going on, of course crime and murder figures are gonna be through the roof.

My son races BMX so we go to a lot of races and have had the pleasure of meeting the BMX gold medalist from Latvia (spelling ?) on many occasions at races and a great kid ta boot,his name is Maris Straumburges..
are you in Finland ? and do you know of this guy ?

Godfather.

my wife likes Mexican food... do you know the guy down in Monterrey in Mexico who won Best Taco 2009?

Godfather. · January 2011

dunky...come on kid, did I hurt yer feelings...oooooo uncle G is so so sorry....taco's in Monterey ?..ha ha ha I kinda thought you might be from the San Fransisco area or at least spent the night there once or twice..

sorry if I hurt yer feelings young fellaaaa.

Godfather.

guns and bullets

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