History of the Downfall of PJ in Popular Culture

Taft
Taft Posts: 457
edited April 2008 in The Porch
(edit: I am adding this disclaimer because many people only read the intro to my post and no further, and assume I give a crap about Pearl Jam's fame and record sales etc...and post something in response. I DON'T CARE about that stuff. I love Vitalogy, I love No Code, I love PJ's place in the rock world. I have literally toured the world with this band, and would not have wanted things to have gone any differently than they have from 1995 to the present as far as Pearl Jam is concerned.

The point of this thread was a response to the misconception that "No Code" was the starting point of the diminished fanbase. Nothing more. Notice I did not say the rabid fanbase diminished!

I am pleasantly surprised by the attention this thread has gotten, mainly because there are some great posts in here, among some bad ones too, thanks!)



This topic stems from the debate on the "Bill Simmons" thread today, which referenced "Binuaral" or more often "No Code" as a fanbase killing album.


People always get this wrong, including most members of this forum.

Vitalogy was the "killing the fan base" album, while most people cite No Code as the downfall in terms of pop culture, because of tepid sales, it was not.

Vitalogy sold a ton copies because PJ was HUGE when it came out, riding momentum from Ten and Vs. They were the biggest band in the world. The fact is, the casual fans did not like Vitalogy at all (outside of Betterman, Not For You, Nothingman and Corduroy).

Spin the Black Circle was the first single, casual fans HATED it. Casual fans hated Last Exit, Bugs, Whipping, Tremor Christ, HeyFoxyMoma, etc...This was also during the time of limited touring and the Ticketmaster issue, which further alienated casual fans.

The key is too look at initial sales (the first week):

1. Vs. was the fastest selling album of all time (rabid, massive fan base);

2. Vitalogy was close behind (rabid, massive fan base still exists);

3. No Code came out and there was a huge drop in sales initially (no longer a massive fan base). This was because of Vitalogy, not because of No Code. It is hard to remember this, but during the time between Vitalogy and No Code was when Pearl Jam lost (intentionally I would argue) its reign as biggest band in the world. Now, No Code's relative inaccessibility to the casual fan, did not help the sales, but it wasn't the cause. If Yield had followed Vitalogy, the band may have regained its popularity, lost by Vitalogy.


Now, I don't really know why I wrote this diatribe, because I could careless about pop culture and PJ's overall popularity and sales. I guess it was because I have seen things written on this many, many times, and I think most people have it wrong.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • aNiMaL
    aNiMaL Posts: 7,117
    I would say that you have it dead on!
  • harmless_little_f***
    harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    I couldn't disagree more. I don't know one casual PJ fan who doesn't love Vitalogy.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    i am fan.....and i dislike foxymob and bugs.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • Allie
    Allie Posts: 2,908
    I think you have it wrong also
    it started when they stopped making videos
    the touring/TM issue didn't help

    but No Code was released w/basically no promo and because it couldn't be scanned for Billboard sales

    That's when the 'down fall' as you put it, started.
    none of the 'casual fans' of which you speak knew they released the album
    that was done intentionally, it wasn't a 'down fall', they, as they have said 'scaled back' to stop being 'the biggest band in the world,'
    I don't think it was that they 'fell'
    they
    stepped off the mountain,
    to use your analogy
    "...like a word misplaced, nothing said, what a waste.."
    "Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
    6-01-06
    6/25/08
    Free Speedy
    and Metsy!
  • eldarion75
    eldarion75 Posts: 2,488
    ' History of the Downfall of PJ in Popular Culture'

    i can sum that whole thing up in one neat little word.

    Avacado.
  • harmless_little_f***
    harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    eldarion75 wrote:
    ' History of the Downfall of PJ in Popular Culture'

    i can sum that whole thing up in one neat little word.

    Avacado.

    LOL :D
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,120
    Taft wrote:
    This topic stems from the debate on the "Bill Simmons" thread today, which referenced "Binuaral" or more often "No Code" as a fanbase killing album.


    People always get this wrong, including most members of this forum.

    Vitalogy was the "killing the fan base" album, while most people cite No Code as the downfall in terms of pop culture, because of tepid sales, it was not.

    Vitalogy sold a ton copies because PJ was HUGE when it came out, riding momentum from Ten and Vs. They were the biggest band in the world. The fact is, the casual fans did not like Vitalogy at all (outside of Betterman, Not For You, Nothingman and Corduroy).

    Spin the Black Circle was the first single, casual fans HATED it. Casual fans hated Last Exit, Bugs, Whipping, Tremor Christ, HeyFoxyMoma, etc...This was also during the time of limited touring and the Ticketmaster issue, which further alienated casual fans.

    The key is too look at initial sales (the first week):

    1. Vs. was the fastest selling album of all time (rabid, massive fan base);

    2. Vitalogy was close behind (rabid, massive fan base still exists);

    3. No Code came out and there was a huge drop in sales initially (no longer a massive fan base). This was because of Vitalogy, not because of No Code. It is hard to remember this, but during the time between Vitalogy and No Code was when Pearl Jam lost (intentionally I would argue) its reign as biggest band in the world. Now, No Code's relative inaccessibility to the casual fan, did not help the sales, but it wasn't the cause. If Yield had followed Vitalogy, the band may have regained its popularity, lost by Vitalogy.


    Now, I don't really know why I wrote this diatribe, because I could careless about pop culture and PJ's overall popularity and sales. I guess it was because I have seen things written on this many, many times, and I think most people have it wrong.


    dont forget the TM battle that occurred just prior to the release of vitaology
    they did not tour, bascially taking time off to fight its battle, refused to make videos-that had to contribute to the erosion of its fan base

    I think there is more to it than the eccentric nature of Vitalogy. They basically stopped being a band at the height of their popularity, and then put out a mellower, introspective record, when the fan base wanted more "go"
  • zeroenvy
    zeroenvy Posts: 40
    congratulations.
    6/27/08!
  • Taft
    Taft Posts: 457
    harmless_little_f*** wrote:
    I couldn't disagree more. I don't know one casual PJ fan who doesn't love Vitalogy.

    You must not know the 546,000 fans who bought Vitalogy in week one, but did not buy No Code in week one. The fanbase had evaporated resulting from Vitalogy fall out.

    To talk about "casual" PJ fans in 2008 is completely irrelevant as to what that the term "casual" fan meant in 1995.


    First Week sales:

    Vitalogy (912,000 including the 35,000 who bought the vinyl)
    No Code (366,000)
  • Gremmie95
    Gremmie95 Posts: 749
    I don't think not making videos had anything to do with it. The ticketmaster thing hurt a bunch.....people couldn't see their favorite band (myself included). "Average" music fans were not willing to jump through the hoops to keep up with them. Also, the music scene shifted in between Vitalogy and No Code. "Grunge" died and took the casual fan with it. Kurt died, Soundgarden broke up, AIC went on hiatus, etc., all within two years or so. I think those things had as much to do with the drop in interest and sales as anything.
  • Taft
    Taft Posts: 457
    Get_Right wrote:
    dont forget the TM battle that occurred just prior to the release of vitaology
    they did not tour, bascially taking time off to fight its battle, refused to make videos-that had to contribute to the erosion of its fan base

    I think there is more to it than the eccentric nature of Vitalogy. They basically stopped being a band at the height of their popularity, and then put out a mellower, introspective record, when the fan base wanted more "go"

    I mentioned the TM battle in the original post, it certainly had an impact.
  • harmless_little_f***
    harmless_little_f*** Posts: 8,005
    Taft wrote:
    You must not know the 546,000 fans who bought Vitalogy in week one, but did not buy No Code in week one. The fanbase had evaporated resulting from Vitalogy fall out.

    To talk about "casual" PJ fans in 2008 is completely irrelevant as to what that the term "casual" fan meant in 1995.


    First Week sales:

    Vitalogy (912,000 including the 35,000 who bought the vinyl)
    No Code (366,000)

    I'm sorry, Mr. High and Mighty Expert. Pat on the back.
    'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'

    - the great Sir Leo Harrison
  • 3inputchick
    3inputchick Posts: 845
    Pearl Jam jumped the shark the day Ticket Master sold shows for them.
    A pessimist is a man who thinks all women are bad. An optimist is one who hopes they are.
  • rival.
    rival. Chicago Posts: 7,775
    tough to say, because vitalogy is #1 or #2 in my book.

    but it is the first album they put out that had some boner songs on it (pry to, bugs, foxy, aye, betterman (hate it)), while ten and vs were strong through out. so i guess i can see how a few casual fans slipped off the PJ wagon.

    it's a shame too, the rest of the album fucking rocks.
  • Stephen Flow
    Stephen Flow Posts: 3,327
    3inputchick wrote:
    Pearl Jam jumped the shark the day Ticket Master sold shows for them.

    No.
  • 3inputchick
    3inputchick Posts: 845
    Stephen Flow wrote:
    No.
    yes
    A pessimist is a man who thinks all women are bad. An optimist is one who hopes they are.
  • rival.
    rival. Chicago Posts: 7,775
    eldarion75 wrote:
    ' History of the Downfall of PJ in Popular Culture'

    i can sum that whole thing up in one neat little word.

    Avacado.

    riot act.
  • Steve Dunne
    Steve Dunne Posts: 4,965
    IMHO 'Who You Are' released as the first single off of 'No Code' was the final exclamation point (in the 90's) in seeing who was with Pearl Jam and who was not. Even dj's were saying 'WTF' when that came out.
    I love to turn you on
  • Get_Right
    Get_Right Posts: 14,120
    if PJ is on a down fall
    why am I being shut out of shows for the first tour in 12 years?
  • Gardenparty
    Gardenparty Posts: 1,910
    aNiMaL wrote:
    I would say that you have it dead on!

    Agreed.

    However, I don't think No code did anything to win them back, which led to fewer records sales beyond that.

    In all honesty though, how many bands actually release over 3 records and continue to see sales increases? especially after the first two sold multi millions. I don't think anybody outside of the pop realm and even within pop it's limited

    It's a natural thing. PJ selling over 300k in the first week for S/T is a large amount
    “I know this song so well, I can smoke a cigarette, have a drink, brush my teeth, take a shit, and mow the lawn while singing it. But I'll only be doing a couple of those things during this version.”

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