History of the Downfall of PJ in Popular Culture

nukeboot

Taft wrote:

The fact is, the casual fans did not like Vitalogy at all (outside of Betterman, Not For You, Nothingman and Corduroy).

So there were four songs that "casual fans" did like and still often mention as the last songs they listened to from PJ? Especially Betterman and Corduroy.

Sounds like a solid argument for No Code being the drop-off album to me.

Gremmie95

Get_Right wrote:

if PJ is on a down fall
why am I being shut out of shows for the first tour in 12 years?

Good point!

release30

Taft you gots it right...

Sexy2aFault

Taft wrote:

This topic stems from the debate on the "Bill Simmons" thread today, which referenced "Binuaral" or more often "No Code" as a fanbase killing album.


People always get this wrong, including most members of this forum.

Vitalogy was the "killing the fan base" album, while most people cite No Code as the downfall in terms of pop culture, because of tepid sales, it was not.

Vitalogy sold a ton copies because PJ was HUGE when it came out, riding momentum from Ten and Vs. They were the biggest band in the world. The fact is, the casual fans did not like Vitalogy at all (outside of Betterman, Not For You, Nothingman and Corduroy).

Spin the Black Circle was the first single, casual fans HATED it. Casual fans hated Last Exit, Bugs, Whipping, Tremor Christ, HeyFoxyMoma, etc...This was also during the time of limited touring and the Ticketmaster issue, which further alienated casual fans.

The key is too look at initial sales (the first week):

1. Vs. was the fastest selling album of all time (rabid, massive fan base);

2. Vitalogy was close behind (rabid, massive fan base still exists);

3. No Code came out and there was a huge drop in sales initially (no longer a massive fan base). This was because of Vitalogy, not because of No Code. It is hard to remember this, but during the time between Vitalogy and No Code was when Pearl Jam lost (intentionally I would argue) its reign as biggest band in the world. Now, No Code's relative inaccessibility to the casual fan, did not help the sales, but it wasn't the cause. If Yield had followed Vitalogy, the band may have regained its popularity, lost by Vitalogy.


Now, I don't really know why I wrote this diatribe, because I could careless about pop culture and PJ's overall popularity and sales. I guess it was because I have seen things written on this many, many times, and I think most people have it wrong.

Nailed it.

Stephen Flow

3inputchick wrote:

yes

I fail to see how you make this connection, sorry.

Jumping the shark in music refers to a musician/band being past it's prime or peak. How that is connected to Ticketmaster is beyond me, maybe you are confusing it with "selling out"... but i'd still have to disagree with you there...

They took TM to court, looking back it was obvious who was going to win. They came to terms with the fact that if they wanted to tour and be accessible to their fan base that they would have to go through Ticketmaster.

a5pj

Get_Right wrote:

if PJ is on a down fall
why am I being shut out of shows for the first tour in 12 years?

you have dial-up?

jk

SoonForgotten2

Get_Right wrote:

if PJ is on a down fall
why am I being shut out of shows for the first tour in 12 years?

Have public tickets gone onsale yet even?

If I had to guess, you're referring to 10C ticket sales and the reason would be this: the hardcore fan base who have stuck with the band now have more money to spend to travel in from all corners of the world to see Pearl Jam in a venue like MSG.

To be fair you need to look at the slower ticket slaes in smaller markets that lack the hype of MSG.

I love PJ as much as anyone but I think too many fans over estimate the band's place in the modern rock world.

DeLukin

They're definitely still popular, but I'm not sure they're viewed as 'relevant' anymore. I remember when No Code came out thinking it was a less angry album than the rest. The Seattle thing was dying down and 'grunge' had grown up. Maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. I just remember being thankful that the band seemed to be maturing with its fan base.

stupidcorporatewhore

3inputchick wrote:

yes

nope, and the reason why you are wrong is because pj fought a good fight, but lost. they do sales with TM because they have to. They literaly have no choice.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

i agree vitalogy probably had more to do with it than No Code. but i do think releasing radio-unfriendly singles (who You Are?) is the biggest reason.

not that i care.

velogator

I agree that it was around the time of Vitalogy that they started to reign in their popularity - on purpose. I was watching the aol sessions that PJ did for Avacado and in one of the interviews, Jeff specifically mentions that they pulled back on purpose around the time that Vitalogy came out because they sensed that as big as they were then, they would burn out very quick if they didn't slow down. I'm 43 years old and so was about 30 when it came out and I admit I was a bit "surprised" at some of the music on that record...I probably didn't listen to it but a couple of times and then put it away for several years...now it's my favorite PJ album :-).

Oh, I must have been a casual fan back then (which I freely admit) as I didn't buy No Code when it came out, and that is the only PJ record that I did not buy upon release (yes, I do have it now .

For the record, my journey from casual fan to uberfan started with Yield

whitepants

Taft wrote:

This topic stems from the debate on the "Bill Simmons" thread today, which referenced "Binuaral" or more often "No Code" as a fanbase killing album.

Vitalogy was the "killing the fan base" album, while most people cite No Code as the downfall in terms of pop culture, because of tepid sales, it was not.


Now, I don't really know why I wrote this diatribe, because I could careless about pop culture and PJ's overall popularity and sales. I guess it was because I have seen things written on this many, many times, and I think most people have it wrong.

Great diatribe, I totally agree with all you wrote.

The casual fan back in the day just got all caught up in the grunge movement because it was new and a force to be reckoned with. But also, with the passing of Kurt Cobain, so did a lot of fans who followed the entire grunge scene.

I also believe that PJ designed, to an extent, their 'fall' from the summit as I don't believe it was their mission to be the #1 grunge band on the planet. And with their audacious plan to put Ticketmaster on the spot in making them and congress realize the monopoly that they were and still are, they alienated the media, music and fans who did not understand, or appreciate what they were trying to do.

A number of circumstances from 1995-1997 made PJ easy targets to love and hate, and I think they are still recovering from that period.

HermanBloom

I agree somewhat with the poster; however, you must remember, Betterman, Tremor Christ, and Nothingman were huge radio singles, possibly their biggest ever, at least at the time.

SoonForgotten2

nathanastin wrote:

Tremor Christ

You mean Corduroy, right? Because other than a few spins as the STBC b-side, I don't think TC got any real airplay at all.

nfanel

this is an interesting theory. i agree with you to some extent, but i'm sure all of the other things people mentioned ('fall' of grunge, TM battle, etc.) also contributed... i don't think it was just one album.

Get_Right

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

Have public tickets gone onsale yet even?

If I had to guess, you're referring to 10C ticket sales and the reason would be this: the hardcore fan base who have stuck with the band now have more money to spend to travel in from all corners of the world to see Pearl Jam in a venue like MSG.

To be fair you need to look at the slower ticket slaes in smaller markets that lack the hype of MSG.

I love PJ as much as anyone but I think too many fans over estimate the band's place in the modern rock world.

I compare it to MSG, because NYC is my hometown and thats the area where I bought tix in the past. And yes 10c tix. 2005 was the first time I was not able to get 10c tix to shows, but I didnt really have an issue because they were limited shows

I know the demographics, I am probabaly one of those people that can travel whereever I want to see the band. But no matter what, Ive always got 10c tix, until this tour.

Actually, the fans dont overestimate PJs place in the world IMHO, lets just hope the rest dont figure it out (as I fear is already happening after the promotions for avocado).

LONGRD

You are all wrong.

The combination of nu-metal/rap-metal and the teenpop bands and "princesses" killed much of rock music.

aNiMaL

I think some folks here get confused when separating us die-hards who post here, and the majority of casual Pearl Jam fans who have never even looked here. I think Taft nailed it in the original post. Nothing offensive at all.

mjb

Taft wrote:

Spin the Black Circle was the first single, casual fans HATED it. Casual fans hated Last Exit, Bugs, Whipping, Tremor Christ, HeyFoxyMoma, etc...This was also during the time of limited touring and the Ticketmaster issue, which further alienated casual fans.

Hardcore fans were a little confused by Bugs too.

dirtyT

Gremmie95 wrote:

I don't think not making videos had anything to do with it. The ticketmaster thing hurt a bunch.....people couldn't see their favorite band (myself included). "Average" music fans were not willing to jump through the hoops to keep up with them. Also, the music scene shifted in between Vitalogy and No Code. "Grunge" died and took the casual fan with it. Kurt died, Soundgarden broke up, AIC went on hiatus, etc., all within two years or so. I think those things had as much to do with the drop in interest and sales as anything.

Very well said, agree with you on this. The whole grunge thing shifted. Korn was coming out and influencing a lot of teens at that point to a heavier, hipper sound.

I also do agree with taft in the fact that casual fans loved TEN and VS and probably didn't think too much of Vitalogy.