I agree that it was around the time of Vitalogy that they started to reign in their popularity - on purpose. I was watching the aol sessions that PJ did for Avacado and in one of the interviews, Jeff specifically mentions that they pulled back on purpose around the time that Vitalogy came out because they sensed that as big as they were then, they would burn out very quick if they didn't slow down. I'm 43 years old and so was about 30 when it came out and I admit I was a bit "surprised" at some of the music on that record...I probably didn't listen to it but a couple of times and then put it away for several years...now it's my favorite PJ album :-).
Oh, I must have been a casual fan back then (which I freely admit) as I didn't buy No Code when it came out, and that is the only PJ record that I did not buy upon release (yes, I do have it now .
For the record, my journey from casual fan to uberfan started with Yield
Manchester, TN - 2008
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Philadelphia, PA I - 2009
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Baltimore, MD - 2013
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Hampton, VA - 2016
This topic stems from the debate on the "Bill Simmons" thread today, which referenced "Binuaral" or more often "No Code" as a fanbase killing album.
Vitalogy was the "killing the fan base" album, while most people cite No Code as the downfall in terms of pop culture, because of tepid sales, it was not.
Now, I don't really know why I wrote this diatribe, because I could careless about pop culture and PJ's overall popularity and sales. I guess it was because I have seen things written on this many, many times, and I think most people have it wrong.
Great diatribe, I totally agree with all you wrote.
The casual fan back in the day just got all caught up in the grunge movement because it was new and a force to be reckoned with. But also, with the passing of Kurt Cobain, so did a lot of fans who followed the entire grunge scene.
I also believe that PJ designed, to an extent, their 'fall' from the summit as I don't believe it was their mission to be the #1 grunge band on the planet. And with their audacious plan to put Ticketmaster on the spot in making them and congress realize the monopoly that they were and still are, they alienated the media, music and fans who did not understand, or appreciate what they were trying to do.
A number of circumstances from 1995-1997 made PJ easy targets to love and hate, and I think they are still recovering from that period.
~*~Me and Hippiemom dranketh the red wine in Cleveland 2003~*~
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
I agree somewhat with the poster; however, you must remember, Betterman, Tremor Christ, and Nothingman were huge radio singles, possibly their biggest ever, at least at the time.
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I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
this is an interesting theory. i agree with you to some extent, but i'm sure all of the other things people mentioned ('fall' of grunge, TM battle, etc.) also contributed... i don't think it was just one album.
If I had to guess, you're referring to 10C ticket sales and the reason would be this: the hardcore fan base who have stuck with the band now have more money to spend to travel in from all corners of the world to see Pearl Jam in a venue like MSG.
To be fair you need to look at the slower ticket slaes in smaller markets that lack the hype of MSG.
I love PJ as much as anyone but I think too many fans over estimate the band's place in the modern rock world.
I compare it to MSG, because NYC is my hometown and thats the area where I bought tix in the past. And yes 10c tix. 2005 was the first time I was not able to get 10c tix to shows, but I didnt really have an issue because they were limited shows
I know the demographics, I am probabaly one of those people that can travel whereever I want to see the band. But no matter what, Ive always got 10c tix, until this tour.
Actually, the fans dont overestimate PJs place in the world IMHO, lets just hope the rest dont figure it out (as I fear is already happening after the promotions for avocado).
I think some folks here get confused when separating us die-hards who post here, and the majority of casual Pearl Jam fans who have never even looked here. I think Taft nailed it in the original post. Nothing offensive at all.
Spin the Black Circle was the first single, casual fans HATED it. Casual fans hated Last Exit, Bugs, Whipping, Tremor Christ, HeyFoxyMoma, etc...This was also during the time of limited touring and the Ticketmaster issue, which further alienated casual fans.
I don't think not making videos had anything to do with it. The ticketmaster thing hurt a bunch.....people couldn't see their favorite band (myself included). "Average" music fans were not willing to jump through the hoops to keep up with them. Also, the music scene shifted in between Vitalogy and No Code. "Grunge" died and took the casual fan with it. Kurt died, Soundgarden broke up, AIC went on hiatus, etc., all within two years or so. I think those things had as much to do with the drop in interest and sales as anything.
Very well said, agree with you on this. The whole grunge thing shifted. Korn was coming out and influencing a lot of teens at that point to a heavier, hipper sound.
I also do agree with taft in the fact that casual fans loved TEN and VS and probably didn't think too much of Vitalogy.
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It is hard to remember this, but during the time between Vitalogy and No Code was when Pearl Jam lost (intentionally I would argue) its reign as biggest band in the world.
I just hope Hootie and the Flowfish didn't overthrown their reign. God I hope not. :mad:
if PJ is on a down fall
why am I being shut out of shows for the first tour in 12 years?
Right, if they went on a downfall, how in the hell have they consistantly sold out 20,000+ seat venues and headline huge festivals, and share the stage with acts such as the Stone, Neil Young, and U2?
Cuyahoga Falls 98, Columbus 00, Cleveland 03, Columbus 03, Toledo 04, Grand Rapids 04, Kitchener 05, Cleveland 06, Cincinnati 06, Washington DC 08, Philadelphia IV 09, Columbus 10, Cleveland 10, Chicago 13, Pittsburgh 13, Cincinnati 14, Chicago (1) 16, Chicago (2) 16
I agree with your theory. Vitalogy also started the run of curious singles that were released. I love Spin the Black Circle, but obivously I'm a diehard. But it's funny that Corduroy gets by far the most radio play at least in Philly off Vitalogy and it was never a single. If Corduroy was released as the first single off Vitalogy, their mainstream success would never have tailed off.
Since the original poster was inspired by Bill Simmons, here's what his take was on Vitalogy a few years ago.
Q: Love your columns, but just curious as to why no love for Pearl Jam? In your column titled "No Love for Sleepy," you mentioned the Blender magazine "50 Worst Songs of All Time" list and said that you would've personally voted for Pearl Jam's "Spin the Black Circle." What's wrong with that song?
--John D, Dayton, Ohio
Bill Simmons: Wait a second ... Pearl Jam is my favorite band of all time. So calm down. It's not just that "Spin the Black Circle" was a dreadful song -- they released it as the first single off "Vitalogy" because they knew it was a dreadful song, and Eddie Vedder was trying to prove that, after two enormously successful albums, they had become famous enough that they could release ANYTHING -- even that horrible piece of crap -- and radio stations would play it, anyway, and their fans would crank it and make believe that they thought it was a good song. He was proving a point. I will always believe that.
(See, this is why I never write about music -- you can have strong opinions about sports and movies, but when you bring music into it, people go bonkers when they don't agree with you. That's why I usually avoid opening that can of worms. But in this case, I'm right and nobody else can convince me otherwise. So there.)
I don't think not making videos had anything to do with it. The ticketmaster thing hurt a bunch.....people couldn't see their favorite band (myself included). "Average" music fans were not willing to jump through the hoops to keep up with them. Also, the music scene shifted in between Vitalogy and No Code. "Grunge" died and took the casual fan with it. Kurt died, Soundgarden broke up, AIC went on hiatus, etc., all within two years or so. I think those things had as much to do with the drop in interest and sales as anything.
Corrections: between Vitalogy and No Code was 1995 - Soundgarden was still together. Grunge wasn't dead because Alice In Chains' selft-titled went 2x platinum without touring.
This same conversation has been going on for years. Why is there such a concern for Pearl Jam's popularity? We should all feel lucky that they keep a Web-site going and are giving us this tour, in my opinion. It's something I look foward to in Life. Worrying about Rock being dead and stuff like that is all media driven bullshit and it's sad to see posts like this.
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agree with Gremmie's page one post and this. The new shit coming out like Korn, is what caused it mostly.
Yes true.
People seems to forget that PJ was the MAIN reason why 1995's "Mirrorball" debuted at #5 and went gold. Mirrorball was Neil's best peek position since his smash "Harvest"
So with that said, Vitalogy wasn't the reason nor was No Code. But mainly due to the new rap-metal and teenpop stuff basically when it comes to it. The "new voice" of the new generation :rolleyes:
I disagree. Some of the songs off Vitalogy were hits on the radio (Not for you, Betterman and a few others). Vitalogy (albeit with those hits), had some additional odds tracks which fans weren't used to, but that alone didn't "kill PJ's fanbase". In fact, if you recall correctly, PJ ran a pretty successful tour outside of ticketmaster contraints at which towards the end we all heard stories about the band being tired and also Cobain's death was still fresh. True at that moment, the "grunge era" perhaps took a downward spiral, but at the same point, it wasn't because of Vitalogy. Vitalogy had many songs which were in the old grunge style of ten and vs; and it wasn't til No Code where PJ totally changed their sound. In my opinion, fans loved Ten, Vs, then liked some songs on Vitalogy (which is why they sold roughly 900k+ albums), then once No Code came out, you didn't have radio friendly hits, the "grunge era" had mostly passed and those loyal PJ fans were expected a new album which closer fit the mold of ten and vs. Musically, Vitalogy put it all out there - no B-sides or rarities, everything was on the album. No Code on the other hand was very well arranged and put together, and by it's own nature and definition, meant Do not Resusitate (no code is a hospital term refering to that). PJ decided they wanted a different musical sound and to go another route that they had previously done, and in doing such, moved away from the fans which only worshiped their first two albums and sorta liked their 3rd. Another obvious sign that No Code did just that, is the fact that most "big" PJ fans nowadays refer to No Code as such a great album, where as most "pop" music fans forgot about PJ for albums thereafter. No Code was definitely the album which was the downfall of PJ's pop culture status.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Corrections: between Vitalogy and No Code was 1995 - Soundgarden was still together. Grunge wasn't dead because Alice In Chains' selft-titled went 2x platinum without touring.
Thanks for the history lessons. Grunge was well on it's way out within the two year period I am talking about (Kurt died in 94, Soundgarden broke up in late 96)
Thanks for the history lessons. Grunge was well on it's way out within the two year period I am talking about (Kurt died in 94, Soundgarden broke up in late 96)
i was with you, some people are just so paticular!
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Thanks for the history lessons. Grunge was well on it's way out within the two year period I am talking about (Kurt died in 94, Soundgarden broke up in late 96)
This same conversation has been going on for years. Why is there such a concern for Pearl Jam's popularity? We should all feel lucky that they keep a Web-site going and are giving us this tour, in my opinion. It's something I look foward to in Life. Worrying about Rock being dead and stuff like that is all media driven bullshit and it's sad to see posts like this.
Good call. It's like he wants [Pearl Jam] to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees. - wayne
Good call. It's like he wants [Pearl Jam] to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees. - wayne
Nice!
'We're learning songs for baby Jesus' birthday. His mum and dad were Merry and Joseph. He had a bed made of clay and the three kings bought him Gold, Frankenstein and Merv as presents.'
Good call. It's like he wants [Pearl Jam] to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees. - wayne
You and dreamweaver are way off....that was not my intent or the point of my post. As I stated, I could careless about their popularity, in fact, I am VERY happy PJ is not loved by everyone and pulled back the way they did.
I just think this issue is widely misreported on this forum and other places (like Bill Simmons article), and I was stating my opinion that No Code was not ground zero as many believe.
This same conversation has been going on for years. Why is there such a concern for Pearl Jam's popularity? We should all feel lucky that they keep a Web-site going and are giving us this tour, in my opinion. It's something I look foward to in Life. Worrying about Rock being dead and stuff like that is all media driven bullshit and it's sad to see posts like this.
I think you have completely missed the point of this thread. In fact, I am not even sure you read the opening post. It is almost as though you saw the headline and couldn't wait to post your thoughts on what you thought this thread was about.
Comments
Oh, I must have been a casual fan back then (which I freely admit) as I didn't buy No Code when it came out, and that is the only PJ record that I did not buy upon release (yes, I do have it now
For the record, my journey from casual fan to uberfan started with Yield
Washington, D.C. - 2008
Philadelphia, PA I - 2009
Bristow, VA - 2010
Baltimore, MD - 2013
Milwaukee, WI - 2014
Hampton, VA - 2016
Great diatribe, I totally agree with all you wrote.
The casual fan back in the day just got all caught up in the grunge movement because it was new and a force to be reckoned with. But also, with the passing of Kurt Cobain, so did a lot of fans who followed the entire grunge scene.
I also believe that PJ designed, to an extent, their 'fall' from the summit as I don't believe it was their mission to be the #1 grunge band on the planet. And with their audacious plan to put Ticketmaster on the spot in making them and congress realize the monopoly that they were and still are, they alienated the media, music and fans who did not understand, or appreciate what they were trying to do.
A number of circumstances from 1995-1997 made PJ easy targets to love and hate, and I think they are still recovering from that period.
First PJ Show: March 20, 1994 | Ann Arbor | Crisler Arena
I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
You mean Corduroy, right? Because other than a few spins as the STBC b-side, I don't think TC got any real airplay at all.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/" title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg" width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
I compare it to MSG, because NYC is my hometown and thats the area where I bought tix in the past. And yes 10c tix. 2005 was the first time I was not able to get 10c tix to shows, but I didnt really have an issue because they were limited shows
I know the demographics, I am probabaly one of those people that can travel whereever I want to see the band. But no matter what, Ive always got 10c tix, until this tour.
Actually, the fans dont overestimate PJs place in the world IMHO, lets just hope the rest dont figure it out (as I fear is already happening after the promotions for avocado).
The combination of nu-metal/rap-metal and the teenpop bands and "princesses" killed much of rock music.
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Hardcore fans were a little confused by Bugs too.
I also do agree with taft in the fact that casual fans loved TEN and VS and probably didn't think too much of Vitalogy.
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Since the original poster was inspired by Bill Simmons, here's what his take was on Vitalogy a few years ago.
Q: Love your columns, but just curious as to why no love for Pearl Jam? In your column titled "No Love for Sleepy," you mentioned the Blender magazine "50 Worst Songs of All Time" list and said that you would've personally voted for Pearl Jam's "Spin the Black Circle." What's wrong with that song?
--John D, Dayton, Ohio
Bill Simmons: Wait a second ... Pearl Jam is my favorite band of all time. So calm down. It's not just that "Spin the Black Circle" was a dreadful song -- they released it as the first single off "Vitalogy" because they knew it was a dreadful song, and Eddie Vedder was trying to prove that, after two enormously successful albums, they had become famous enough that they could release ANYTHING -- even that horrible piece of crap -- and radio stations would play it, anyway, and their fans would crank it and make believe that they thought it was a good song. He was proving a point. I will always believe that.
(See, this is why I never write about music -- you can have strong opinions about sports and movies, but when you bring music into it, people go bonkers when they don't agree with you. That's why I usually avoid opening that can of worms. But in this case, I'm right and nobody else can convince me otherwise. So there.)
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Jones Beach NY 1 + 3 - '00
MSG 1 + 2 - '03
Boston Garden - '04
Montreal - '05
Boston Garden 1, Meadowlands 1 + 2 - '06
Mansfield 1 - '08
(EV solo) Boston 1 - '08
Chicago 1 - '09
MSG -'10
Brooklyn 1+2 - '13
Central Park - '15
MSG - '16
Fenway - '16
Wrigley - '16
(RRHOF) Brooklyn - '17
Fenway - '18
MSG - '22
MSG 1 - '24
People seems to forget that PJ was the MAIN reason why 1995's "Mirrorball" debuted at #5 and went gold. Mirrorball was Neil's best peek position since his smash "Harvest"
So with that said, Vitalogy wasn't the reason nor was No Code. But mainly due to the new rap-metal and teenpop stuff basically when it comes to it. The "new voice" of the new generation :rolleyes:
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Thanks for the history lessons. Grunge was well on it's way out within the two year period I am talking about (Kurt died in 94, Soundgarden broke up in late 96)
is this some sort of subject I need to pass to get the band to play in South America?
http://web.stargate.net/soundgarden/articles/gw_2-98.shtml
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
Now LongRd., nobody likes a smart ass!
Good call. It's like he wants [Pearl Jam] to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees. - wayne
EV- 08/09,10/2008.06/08,09/2009
NICE!
Nice!
- the great Sir Leo Harrison
You and dreamweaver are way off....that was not my intent or the point of my post. As I stated, I could careless about their popularity, in fact, I am VERY happy PJ is not loved by everyone and pulled back the way they did.
I just think this issue is widely misreported on this forum and other places (like Bill Simmons article), and I was stating my opinion that No Code was not ground zero as many believe.
Taft, hang in there.