Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

145791018

Comments

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    At this point we simply don't know who attacked whom first.



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... ship-blood

    Gaza flotilla raid: 'We heard gunfire – then our ship turned into lake of blood'

    Activists aboard Mavi Marmara speak of shock at rapid attacks and deny assaults on Israeli commandos


    Robert Booth, Kate Connolly in Berlin, Tom Philips in Rio de Janeiro and Helena Smith
    The Guardian, Wednesday 2 June 2010



    'Some formed human shields, others fought back with makeshift weapons, while a few of the most vulnerable hid below deck and prayed for the violence and killing to stop.

    But what united every survivor who spoke out today about yesterday's pre-dawn assault by Israeli commandos on the pro-Palestinian aid flotilla to Gaza, was a sense of deep shock at the speed, aggression and lethal force of the Israeli response to what they reiterated was nothing more than a humanitarian aid effort.

    Speaking on arrival back in Berlin, wrapped in an airline blanket from the Israeli national airline El Al, Norman Paech, a 72-year-old German pro-Palestinian activist described waking up to hear "striking explosions" as the assault began on the Mavi Marmara, the flotilla's informal flagship.

    "I hurried up and dressed myself and colleagues said to me 'we're under attack, the Israelis are here'," he said. "The aggression came from the sky, from helicopters from which soldiers came down by ropes. We waited in the fore room and saw them carrying an Israeli soldier who looked to me like he'd had a breakdown. Then the second and third came, but after these three injured soldiers then I saw a lot – maybe 10 – passengers who were severely hurt, injured, covered in blood. They were treated in the salon next to me. One was so badly injured I am sure he must have died soon after. I didn't even consider going upstairs as it was just too dangerous."

    One of the strongest condemnations of Israel's actions came from the Swedish novelist Henning Mankell who had been aboard the Swedish aid ship Sofia. Mankell, the author of the Wallander series called for global sanctions against Israel to put pressure on it to lift the blockade of Gaza. "I think we should use the experience of South Africa, where we know that the sanctions had a great impact. It took time, but they had an impact," Mankell said. He also denied there had been any weapons aboard the aid ships. "I can promise there was not a single weapon aboard the ships," he told a reporter who was returning to Sweden with him after the writer had been deported by Israel.

    Nilufer Cetin, a Turkish activist, and her baby boy hid in a bathroom below deck as stun grenades, live ammunition and teargas exploded above them. Speaking on her return to Istanbul, she described how "the ship turned into a lake of blood".

    "We stayed in our cabin and played games amid the sound of gunfire," she said. "I protected him by staying in my cabin, then went to the bathroom. I put a gas mask and lifejacket on my son. They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend on to the ship with helicopters." She added the clashes were "extremely bad and brutal".

    Iara Lee, a Brazilian filmmaker who was also on the Mavi Marmara, claimed the Israeli troops had invaded the ship after cutting all communications and "started shooting at people". She spoke to Brazil's TV Globo from the prison in southern Israel where an estimated 600 foreign activists, including around 40 Britons, were being held. Israeli officials said tonight that they would all be freed immediately.

    Lee said: "[The attack] was a surprise, because it happened in the middle of the night, in the darkness, in international waters, because we knew there would be a confrontation but not in international waters. Their first tactic was to cut all of our satellite communications and then they attacked. All I witnessed first hand was the shooting. They came on board and started shooting at people."

    She said the commandos then sent the women to a lower level of the ship.

    "They said we were terrorists – it was absurd. They came into the part where the women were, lots and lots of them, dressed in black and with gigantic weapons as if they were in a war. They confiscated all of our telephones and all of our luggage and took everything out of the bags and put it on the floor."

    "We expected them to shoot people in the legs, to shoot in the air, just to scare people, but they were direct," she said, in a separate interview with the Folha de São Paulo newspaper. "Some of them shot in the passengers' heads. Many people were murdered – it was unimaginable."

    The released activists gave varying accounts of the level of resistance mounted by the passengers.

    Annette Groth, a German politician, described at a press conference how she had seen Israeli soldiers outside her cabin, after they had stormed the ship.

    "They were shooting without warning," she said. "It was like war … They had guns, Taser weapons, some type of teargas and other weaponry, compared to two-and-a-half wooden sticks we had between us. To talk of self-defence is ridiculous."

    Footage of the assault shown on Turkish TV and images released by the Israeli military clearly showed some commandos being beaten with sticks by passengers.

    However, Paech said he saw no arms being used by the activists. "There were only two men with short sticks but no knives, iron rods, pistols or any real weapons," he said. "Throughout our planning of the mission we said: 'no arms, no explosives', we said we'd only resist politically, with normal means."

    An Arab member of the Israeli Knesset, Hanin Zoabi, who was on board the Mavi Marmara, said "not a single passenger …raised a club".


    At a press conference in Nazareth, she said: "A clear message was being sent to us, for us to know that our lives were in danger. We were not interested in a confrontation. What we saw was five bodies. There were only civilians and there were no weapons … Israel spoke of a provocation, but there was no provocation."

    According to a spokeswoman for the Israeli Defence Force (IDF), Avital Leibovich, its warships gave the activists several warnings before commandos were dropped from helicopters on to the deck of the Mavi Marmara.

    "We found ourselves in the middle of a lynching," she told reporters in the Israeli port of Ashdod. About 10 activists had attacked commandos, taking their pistols, she said. "It was a massive attack. What happened was a last resort."

    The violence was not confined to the Mavi Marmara. Speaking at Athens airport, Mihalis Grigoropoulos, crew on one of the other five vessels, said the Israelis came down from helicopters and threw ropes from inflatable boats, climbing aboard using teargas and live ammunition.

    "We did not resist at all, we couldn't even if we had wanted to," he said. "What could we have done against the commandos who climbed aboard? The only thing some people tried was to delay them from getting to the bridge, forming a human shield. They were fired on with plastic bullets and stunned with electric devices."

    Greek activist Dimitris Gielalis, aboard a third vessel, the Sfendoni, gave a similar account. "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat. They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used," he said.

    The tough treatment did not end after they were taken into custody in Israel, others said.

    "During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," said Aris Papadokostopoulos.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,158
    B, you are nothing if not consistent.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    the israelis boarded these boats in international waters. their intention was to what exactly?? if you board my boat i have a right to defend it.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    yosi wrote:
    one would have too ask WHY the israeli govt find it necessary to stop aid reaching gaza.

    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.

    yes i know that yosi. but youll have to excuse me(and many others) if i feel a bit sceptical about the israelis allowing the much needed aid to flow unaccosted.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited June 2010
    The problem as I see it is that the Israeli leadership are too arrogant and reckless.

    I'd like to see a peaceful settlement to the I/P conflict, but this won't happen as long as the U.S encourages Israels rogue behaviour by defending everything it does, and bankrolling it's military to the tune of $4 Billion of U.S tax-payers money every year. Nobody is benefiting from this current impasse, including the Israeli's. As things stand they are on a one-way road to disaster. It's a type of insanity. As Norman Finkelstein says - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8 - it isn't just rhetoric to accuse Israel of being a lunatic state. A lunatic state is precisely what it has become. And what do you do with a dangerous lunatic? Do you give it money and weapons and defend it when it acts violently? Or do you punish it and try to re-condition it's behaviour?

    Israel needs to be punished. It needs to suffer a defeat, either militarily or diplomatically. Personally, I'd prefer to see it suffer a huge diplomatic defeat. I'd like to see U.N 242 implemented and supported by the U.S, and failing that I'd like to see strict international sanctions imposed.

    The onus is on the U.S government, but in light of it's latest support of Israels most recent atrocity I see nothing changing anytime soon.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Sign the Petition:


    Gaza: investigate the raid, end the blockade

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_flotilla_3/?rc=fbp&pv=1
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited June 2010

    List of forbidden items;
    I was also surprised to read (or was I?) that washing machines are a no-no because the timers could be used for making bombs.....

    @michelle - sure those tunnels bring in goods. But all that Israel is doing by forcing the use of these smuggling tunnels is enriching Hamas. Hamas controls them & the goods that pass through them, selling goods at inflated prices (law of supply and demand) and stuffing the money in their pockets. So much for Israel trying to crush Hamas! You will also find that the majority of the people of Gaza do not have access to those goods. If people could find all they needed/wanted, there would not be malnutrition, their homes would be rebuilt, etc. Again, Israeli propaganda and spin.

    The world sees through this spin, it's no longer effective - really didn't work this time with the aid ship attacks. They may have blocked all communications and held the activist incommunicado to be able to flood the media with their side of the story, forgetting that some members of the aid ships did get messages out. But now that these activists are getting out of Israeli custody, they are talking. So much for damage control. Not that Israel really cares.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/1/gl ... med_attack

    Adam Shapiro, Richard Falk, Amira Hass, and Ali Abunimah on Democracy Now
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Let me reiterate, for those who will bother to read.

    I think the blockade needs to be modified so the following are provided to the Gazans, who are victims in this:

    - Medicine
    - Health care (and required facilities)
    - Staples (includes food staples and living staples)
    - Fresh water (and I should have said sewage facilities. edit: both this and functioning health care facilities require some construction to be allowed)

    But I just don't see it as realistic to completely eliminate the whole blockade and let all shipments into Gaza unchecked.

    Add to the list ALL construction materials so people can rebuilt their homes, hospitals, schools, factories, core materials to get industry going again, tractors, etc. to get farming back on track. And not just living staples, get the sewing machines, toys, spices, kitchenware, white goods, etc. Why should these people have to live on 'basics' because Israel says so? Why can the children not have toys, crayons, paper to write and draw on? Does that seem fair to you? Would you like to be told you can only have what a bully neighbour says you can have? No.

    The palestinians have the same right to have a life of 'luxury' as the Israelis. Israel has no right to take this away from the Palestinians.
  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    redrock wrote:
    Let me reiterate, for those who will bother to read.

    I think the blockade needs to be modified so the following are provided to the Gazans, who are victims in this:

    - Medicine
    - Health care (and required facilities)
    - Staples (includes food staples and living staples)
    - Fresh water (and I should have said sewage facilities. edit: both this and functioning health care facilities require some construction to be allowed)

    But I just don't see it as realistic to completely eliminate the whole blockade and let all shipments into Gaza unchecked.

    Add to the list ALL construction materials so people can rebuilt their homes, hospitals, schools, factories, core materials to get industry going again, tractors, etc. to get farming back on track. And not just living staples, get the sewing machines, toys, spices, kitchenware, white goods, etc. Why should these people have to live on 'basics' because Israel says so? Why can the children not have toys, crayons, paper to write and draw on? Does that seem fair to you? Would you like to be told you can only have what a bully neighbour says you can have? No.

    The palestinians have the same right to have a life of 'luxury' as the Israelis. Israel has no right to take this away from the Palestinians.


    front2.jpg
    an israeli tourism advertisement


    and then there's this video, israel: always worth it for the falafel by the youtube account israeltourism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbuTzd0V ... r_embedded

    here's a commercial called think israel
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2hxMjO ... re=related

    here are some commercials from the israeli ministry of tourism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On108AP8 ... re=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de7pCdWI ... re=related

    they don't look like they are living in fear to me

    i wonder what the official line from israel is?

    from the israeli ministry of tourism:
    http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tou ... .%20SAFETY

    2. SAFETY

    Is it safe to travel to Israel?
    Israel is an extremely safe country to visit and to tour. In 2008, three million tourists came to Israel, an all-time record, and all three million went back home safe and sound. We would not encourage tourists to come if we felt they would be in the slightest danger.

    so, who is getting wiped off the map again??
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • From; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... ted-jordan

    One of the group deported to Jordan today, Walid al-Tabtabai, a Kuwaiti politician who was on board one of the ships with other activists from Muslim countries, said: "The Israelis roughed up and humiliated all of us, women, men and children.

    "They were brutal and arrogant, but our message reached every corner of the world that the blockade on Gaza is unfair and should be lifted immediately."

    Like many passengers on the flotilla he insisted there were no weapons on any of the ships.

    Algerian Izzeddine Zahrour said Israeli authorities "deprived us of food, water and sleep and we weren't allowed to use the toilet".

    "It was an ugly kidnapping and subsequently bad treatment in Israeli jail," he said. "They handcuffed us, pushed us around and humiliated us."

    Mauritanian Mohammed Gholam said Israel "wanted us to sign documents saying that we entered Israel illegally".

    An Algerian activist, who only gave her first name as Sabrina, accused Israeli commandos of taking a one-year-old child hostage.

    "They point a gun to his head in front of his Turkish parents to force the captain of our ship to stop sailing," she said.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    I'm sorry, I'm confused. The first part of your answer suggests that the goal of the flotilla was primarily political, that they turned down the Ashdod offer because they wanted to provoke a conflict, but then the second part of your answer suggests that they turned down the offer because it wouldn't serve their humanitarian goals. Which is it?

    the floatilla was political because up until this week - international coverage and focus was nominal at best ... the organizers were sure to know israel would not allow the goods to enter and that they would have to commit crimes to prevent it ...

    as for the second part - what good is accepting the offer to dock in Ashdod!? ... it makes absolutely no sense ... the goal IS to Free Gaza ... only through international pressure will this happen ...
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    yosi wrote:
    one would have too ask WHY the israeli govt find it necessary to stop aid reaching gaza.

    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.


    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    yosi wrote:
    one would have too ask WHY the israeli govt find it necessary to stop aid reaching gaza.

    In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.


    maybe because israel won't allow things like fruit juice, coriander, wood....and up until 2 months ago shoes from entering gaza! not only that but the un reported what israel allows in only meets 1/4 of gaza's daily needs. if they turned the items over they wouldn't be give to gaza

    who is israel to tell 1.5 million people they can't use coriander or wood or drink fruit juice!? and can you explain how a resident of gaza having one of those items would lead to the destruction of israel?? it's as crazy as that former soviet state that the us gives aid to that banned things like the ballet


    Well.......9 people would still be going home to their families.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    Why should they listen to orders from high sea pirates? OK.. maybe because they were pointing guns at people but apart that? This ship was in international waters, well within their rights. These people did not believe that they would be shot at and they did believe/hope that their ship would be able to deliver the goods. Other ships have managed to do so in the past. Docking in Israel would mean most of the aid would have been confiscated and would not have reached those that needed it. We all know that (except a couple of people here, it seems).

    Israel and the IDF are responsible for the deaths.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    First of all - do you even know why this floatilla was organized to begin with!??? It is because Israel is not allowing many items into GAZA (go look at the list of forbidden items) - so, what good is it to dock the ship in Ashdod - so, they can have it confiscated!??

    Secondly, the boat is in INTERNATIONAL waters. Attacking a registered ship in international waters and killing civilians is an ACT OF WAR. It is a crime.

    These activists are heroes. The people who have died - have died for people who are suffering. I betcha you are one to honour the troops of the US armed forces. If one of them goes over to Iraq and dies - do you make flippant comments like the one above? edit: like the one in the previous page
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    Sure, it was the fault of the aid workers that they were mown down and killed. Just as it was the fault of the 1000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year that they were slaughtered by the IDF.

    Israel apologists love trying to turn reality on it's head, probably because this is all they have. The truth is not in them.
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    Sure, it was the fault of the aid workers that they were mown down and killed. Just as it was the fault of the 1000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year that they were slaughtered by the IDF.

    Israel apologists love trying to turn reality on it's head, probably because this is all they have. The truth is not in them.

    In all honesty, maybe I should stay out of this topic. I'm not all that educated on Israel. But from what i've gathered on this topic:

    A boat tried going through a BLOCKADE.
    Soldiers boarded the boat.
    And from the footage I have seen, before the soldiers feet even touch the floor the activists were already throwing stuff at him.
    And........people on this forum claim to know more about Israel then people that actually live there or have lived there.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    A boat tried going through a BLOCKADE.
    Soldiers boarded the boat.
    And from the footage I have seen, before the soldiers feet even touch the floor the activists were already throwing stuff at him.
    And........people on this forum claim to know more about Israel then people that actually live there or have lived there.

    Israel imposed a media blackout immediately after the attack so only a handful of reports from the aid workers have so far gotten out. I'm sure we'll be hearing more over the coming days. Here's one:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/20 ... e-coverage

    Huwaida Arraf, one of the Free Gaza Movement organisers, claimed she was beaten when Israeli troops boarded her ship.

    She told CNN:

    Live blog: quote

    "They started coming after our ship so we took off and they charged us also. Eventually, they overtook our ship and they used concussion grenades, sound bombs and pellets."

    They started beating people. My head was smashed against the ground and they stepped on my head. They later cuffed me and put a bag over my head. They did that to everybody."



    I wonder if the Israeli's will confiscate all of the video footage of the attack taken by those on board the ships, or if we'll get to see that footage soon?
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Exactly, they poked them in the eye instead of just docking in Israe which, to me, makes the captain of the boat responsible for the deaths. The people on that ship provoked this. But most of the people on this forum believe that just because someone is called a peace activists or a humanitarian aid worker they can not do anything wrong. They simply should have listened to the orders that they were given.

    Sure, it was the fault of the aid workers that they were mown down and killed. Just as it was the fault of the 1000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza last year that they were slaughtered by the IDF.

    Israel apologists love trying to turn reality on it's head, probably because this is all they have. The truth is not in them.

    In all honesty, maybe I should stay out of this topic. I'm not all that educated on Israel. But from what i've gathered on this topic:

    A boat tried going through a BLOCKADE.
    Soldiers boarded the boat.
    And from the footage I have seen, before the soldiers feet even touch the floor the activists were already throwing stuff at him.
    And........people on this forum claim to know more about Israel then people that actually live there or have lived there.

    Maybe try educating yourself a bit then.

    Boats were in international waters
    Soldiers illegally boarded said boats armed to the teeth and threatening
    Some activist trying to stopped armed pirates illegally boarding their boat from all sides in the middle of the night (would you not try to stop someone breaking into your house?)
    No one claims to know more about anything. Some are more educated on certain matters than others. Some have blinkers, some don't. Some are brainwashed by propaganda, some aren't. A mix of people, really.