I'm always glad to be thorough. The difference between drummers are night and apples.
No sweat dude. I really appreciate that you and JordyWordy took the time to educate people about the differenced in drumming styles of Dave A, Jack, and Matt. It couldn't be more easy to follow.
On a different topic... I didn't realize that I would be referred to as "HH." Maybe I should change my name so as to avoid some kind of inadvertent nazi reference? Thoughts? Just kidding. But not really. :shock:
"A lot more people are capable of being big out there that just don't give themselves a chance." -Stone Gossard
I agree with the comments that this is the best thread ... it's definitely the best I've ever read.
I have never played an instrument and don't understand a lot of the technical terminology. But I have read the drummer comparisons for years on the Pit and never quite understood how the differences between the drummers could be so significant they they'd spark the debate that they do around here. But seeing those comments with the video links really highlighted the different styles of Dave A, Jack & Matt. The Blood videos were especially compelling.
@ CMJST3K: What does it mean to say that a drummer hits a cymbal X times per measure?
Hey BB (no nazi reference to be inferred )
Thanks and I may be using the term "measure" loosely (played drums 25 years, but never read music). Here's an online definition: "Measure: The unit of measure where the beats on the lines of the staff are divided up into two, three, four beats to a measure".
I was using in this way: "Spin me 'round" = 1 measure. "Roll me over" = 1 measure... and so on. A very short segment of the song where, at the end, the guitar chords start over again. A guitarist may have a better description than I just gave. ...so when one drummer hits his cymbals 4 times per "measure", and another hits them 6 times in that same part of the song, one of those drummers is hitting cymbals more often during the same amount of time. Hope that helps!
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I'm always glad to be thorough. The difference between drummers are night and apples.
No sweat dude. I really appreciate that you and JordyWordy took the time to educate people about the differenced in drumming styles of Dave A, Jack, and Matt. It couldn't be more easy to follow.
On a different topic... I didn't realize that I would be referred to as "HH." Maybe I should change my name so as to avoid some kind of inadvertent nazi reference? Thoughts? Just kidding. But not really. :shock:
Hehe, CJMST3K probably knows a drumkit better than i do! i play bass, cant play drums but i get how they flesh out - a change in the drumming of a song will drive me nuts if it fucks with how the bass sounds/the overall flow of the song.
thankfully CJMST3K (no way of abbreviating that name is there? lol) got it spot on when he said that he cant really tell at live shows - i cant either. on boots its more obvious. at live shows it probably just makes the band sound noisier....combined with playing songs faster. i dont really know though, never saw PJ before Matt joined.
The thing is that if you listen to Wellwater Conspiracy or Harryby McCage its obvious that Matt can do delicate, intricate drumming - so it makes it even more annoying to hear him pound away unimaginatively on certain tracks!
Not all of his takes on old songs are bad - he's brushed up on his Why Go intro....and the beat he does at the end of the Even Flow solo (just as Stone comes back in) is my favourite thing about Even Flow now.
I'm always glad to be thorough. The difference between drummers are night and apples.
No sweat dude. I really appreciate that you and JordyWordy took the time to educate people about the differenced in drumming styles of Dave A, Jack, and Matt. It couldn't be more easy to follow.
On a different topic... I didn't realize that I would be referred to as "HH." Maybe I should change my name so as to avoid some kind of inadvertent nazi reference? Thoughts? Just kidding. But not really. :shock:
Hehe, CJMST3K probably knows a drumkit better than i do - but i play bass - a change in the drumming of a song will drive me nuts if it fucks with how it makes the bass sound, or the overall flow of the song.
thankfully CJMST3K (no way of abbreviating that name is there? lol) got it spot on when he said that he cant really tell at live shows - i cant either. on boots its more obvious. at live shows it probably just makes the band sound noisier....combined with playing songs faster. i dont really know though, never saw PJ before Matt joined.
The thing is that if you listen to Wellwater Conspiracy or Harryby McCage its obvious that Matt can do delicate, intricate drumming - so it makes it even more annoying to hear him pound away unimaginatively on certain tracks!
Not all of his takes on old songs are bad - he's brushed up on his Why Go intro....and the beat he does at the end of the Even Flow solo (just as Stone comes back in) is my favourite thing about Even Flow now.
Yeah, it is! so cool. they could play that part out for a good while, my feet wouldnt stop moving.
Thinking about it, few bands play the majority of their catalogue on tour like PJ do (they have a list of like, 20-30 instead per tour), so the demands on whoever drums for PJ are pretty huge. Matt was never gona be able to learn all of...
Ten & Outtakes (20 songs approx)
Dave's songs (23 albums tracks & Bsides)
Jack' s songs (27 album tracks & Bsides)
.....in exactly the style they were written. Maybe the band took a concious decision to not force Matt to imitate Dave - there'd probably have been a backlash too if he had just mimicked such distinctive drumming instead of doing it his way and, to be fair, Jack hadnt copied Dave either.
I for one though, wouldnt complain! Give me the original drums on Rats, Blood, Tremor Christ, or Go and ill be a happy man.
Matt is great on Matt-written material. But on MUCH of the early material, it's as though he's never heard the previously played drumming by the several other drummers, and just plays it straight. Just kinda sounds like a temporary stand-in drummer who's not as familiar, yes particularly on funky songs, but on a number of others too.
Meant to say earlier, this should be posted as an answer whenever a "Best drummer thread" comes up again, and then the thread should be locked. nicely put
just wanted to say i've read this thread in it's entirety just now - yes, it's a bizarrely slow workday today - and it has been a great and informative read! i don't watch youtube vids from work and rarely visit the board from home anymore...thus why i've never opened this thread before. i most definitely wnat to check out some of the vids, especially the comparison vids. i am no musician by any stretch, tho married to an active bass player...so many a convo, and many gigs.....so i truly enjoy the techie music discussions.
as for dave a......i say kudos for sharing some vintage material with fans.
as to all the rest, total personal choice, perspective....entirely subjective. i loved dave, love matt, not the biggest fan of jack....but all solid drummers with their own styles. really all what connects most with you, but reallly...as already mentioned, i think each has been/is the right drummer at the right time for pj, so for that...i thank them all.
You know as someone who plays drums I could argue this point until my face turns blue. :P
What exactly can Matt do better than Dave? He isn't as fluid in his movements, his feet definitely are NOT better (Again listen to his calf go crazy on State of Love and Trust) He can't play faster (Listen to any live Porch)
Is it maybe because of his Jazz technique? That's the only thing I could think of that might put Matt higher than Dave, because based on pure talent, the argument isn't even close.
And sorry Jenny, I've never argued this (I'm still a newbie here)
And I don't like the way Matt plays who you are either. And for that matter the way Jack played Given to Fly on SVT was amazing. Matt doesn't do that either.. :(
That being said I still love Matt as a drummer, and I love Jack to. Just as a drummer I know how difficult it is to mimic Dave's style.
And I don't like the way Matt plays who you are either. And for that matter the way Jack played Given to Fly on SVT was amazing. Matt doesn't do that either.. :(
That being said I still love Matt as a drummer, and I love Jack to. Just as a drummer I know how difficult it is to mimic Dave's style.
Matt is getting better at Who You Are. I was lucky enough to see a private rehearsal with them, and I got to watch Matt from right behind him.
But Matt unfortunately can't match or come close to the intricacies and timing that Dave had, or even matching how Jack played on Dave's material, which in effect was a simpler version of Dave's playing. (see previous page - I explained it in high detail with video comparisons).
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
And I don't like the way Matt plays who you are either. And for that matter the way Jack played Given to Fly on SVT was amazing. Matt doesn't do that either.. :(
That being said I still love Matt as a drummer, and I love Jack to. Just as a drummer I know how difficult it is to mimic Dave's style.
Matt is getting better at Who You Are. I was lucky enough to see a private rehearsal with them, and I got to watch Matt from right behind him.
But Matt unfortunately can't match or come close to the intricacies and timing that Dave had, or even matching how Jack played on Dave's material, which in effect was a simpler version of Dave's playing. (see previous page - I explained it in high detail with video comparisons).
I watched those video comparisons, you hit blood right on the nose!
And what I loved about Jack is you can tell he actually took the time to listen to prior records. A lot of the time it sounds like Matt is just doing his own thing on the older stuff.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
it's ALWAYS great seeing Stone's dancing in the early days!
Stone did a dance London Ontario 2005 it was great!!! It all started with a "LET STONE SING" fansign EDDIE responded to then Stone said "I don't wanna sing I wanna Dance!" then did a funkybutt dance HIGHLARIOUS
Barrie 08/22/98
Toronto 10/01/00
Toronto 06/28/03
Kitchner 09/11/05
London 09/12/05
Hamilton 09/13/05
Toronto 05/9/06
Toronto 05/10/06
Please play SATANS BED
Dave's drum "sound" was superior to Matt's. Matt's is just flat and lacks umph. That probably sounds stupid but it's the best way to explain it. It's sad watching these videos and seeing how good the drums and these songs could sound live today.
Dave's drum "sound" was superior to Matt's. Matt's is just flat and lacks umph. That probably sounds stupid but it's the best way to explain it. It's sad watching these videos and seeing how good the drums and these songs could sound live today.
If by "umph" you mean sheer fuckin' power, then yes, Matt does lack umph. Technically though, Matt is the best drummer Pearl Jam has ever had, I'd say.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Dave's drum "sound" was superior to Matt's. Matt's is just flat and lacks umph. That probably sounds stupid but it's the best way to explain it. It's sad watching these videos and seeing how good the drums and these songs could sound live today.
If by "umph" you mean sheer fuckin' power, then yes, Matt does lack umph. Technically though, Matt is the best drummer Pearl Jam has ever had, I'd say.
Why you say that "technically Matt is the best drummer". Is there a list of stats your looking at or something?
I think that, technically, Dave was the best drummer in PJ.
If you go here and scroll down to the 5th post, it explains why I believe Dave's work, particularly on early material, is technically the best: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=95437&start=75
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
And what I loved about Jack is you can tell he actually took the time to listen to prior records. A lot of the time it sounds like Matt is just doing his own thing on the older stuff.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Was it a requirement when Matt joined PJ that he had to play like anyone else? or did they ask him to play drums and then ask him to play the songs that used to be played by someone else? I would think he should be able to do his own thing since he is his own person. Clearly, he has to follow the music to a point.. but why not allow him the ability to be free/creative and change it up a bit?
I know you can't *hear* me asking this question so I'll make it clear - I'm not attacking. I'm just confused and asking for conversation on this point. I just don't understand the expectation that Matt should have to try to play the drums just like Dave or just like Jack. I personally think that is the neat thing about individuality in musicians. An example would be when PJ does a cover of a song - it's okay that the cover doesn't sound exactly like the original - they are adding some "PJ" to the recipe. I personally like messing with recipies
Thanks - again, i'm just asking the question. Makes me nervous to post considering how messages get misinterpreted on this board.
And what I loved about Jack is you can tell he actually took the time to listen to prior records. A lot of the time it sounds like Matt is just doing his own thing on the older stuff.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Was it a requirement when Matt joined PJ that he had to play like anyone else? or did they ask him to play drums and then ask him to play the songs that used to be played by someone else? I would think he should be able to do his own thing since he is his own person. Clearly, he has to follow the music to a point.. but why not allow him the ability to be free/creative and change it up a bit?
I know you can't *hear* me asking this question so I'll make it clear - I'm not attacking. I'm just confused and asking for conversation on this point. I just don't understand the expectation that Matt should have to try to play the drums just like Dave or just like Jack. I personally think that is the neat thing about individuality in musicians. An example would be when PJ does a cover of a song - it's okay that the cover doesn't sound exactly like the original - they are adding some "PJ" to the recipe. I personally like messing with recipies
Thanks - again, i'm just asking the question. Makes me nervous to post considering how messages get misinterpreted on this board.
I understand his statement, and I agree.
Matt didn't seem to give a lot of the early songs much of a listen, and just seemed to jam it out with the band, and however he decided to play it is how it continued regardless of fan's familiarity or enjoyment of the original arrangement.
I believe PJ said to each drummer to play however they want.
For those of us who enjoyed the early stuff more, it's kinda like this: Imagine Ed was kicked out of the band, and they have a new singer, and instead of learning the words, the new singer just came up with new words instead. Would you enjoy it the same? Does your "messing with recipes" scenario hold water in this situation?
(all smiles - no attacks )
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Wow.. messing with the recipe does not include kicking out Eddie!! Shame on you for the suggestion :x That said, I guess I never thought of changing the drummer as equivalent to changing the singer. Maybe it depends on which part of the band your brain focuses on more ? For me, the vocals are more of a focus than the other instruments.
I love the music PJ creates and plays. I absolutely love Ed's voice. I love Ed's voice with the PJ music. I love Ed's voice with any band I've heard him sing with. If Ed left PJ, and the band found another singer... I would be willing to give it a listen... maybe I'd still be there and maybe not. However, one thing is for certain - I would follow Ed's voice and ride the wave where it takes me. Now, as to whether I would continue to listen to PJ with the PJ songs but new singer using new lyrics.. it would have to depend on how the music changes. Doesn't mean I wouldn't miss the old, but I do think I would be able to separate out that it is a new person, it is a new band, and I would either continue to love it and stick with it or not.
Don't get me wrong.. I loved watching Dave play and do miss his enthusiasm - but clearly his absence has not killed my PJ addiction. Ed's absence might.
To reminisce about the old days... watch this crazy scene - absolutely insane - the security in the front row stay busy the entire time, Ed disappears at some point near the end into the crowd, Stone smashes his guitar into tiny pieces, and Jeff is practicing skateboarding while he's playing, and fans are throwing things on stage the entire song... it's amazing they all got off stage alive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bswse16jGi8&NR=1
Technically, my favorite food is pizza. Technically, I don't enjoy spending time with my in-laws. Technically, I look forward to Friday every week. See what I'm getting at...personal tastes.
Eddie and Jeff, technically didn't like the way Dave played the drums. I know everyone thinks this is an Eddie didn't like Dave thing, but from what I've heard and read from band members is that his playing was just as much of an issue as his personality.
Technically, I think Matt is the best drummer. I also remember a whole bunch of fans moaning when Jack joined the band and the drums didn't sound right.
Technically, my favorite food is pizza. Technically, I don't enjoy spending time with my in-laws. Technically, I look forward to Friday every week. See what I'm getting at...personal tastes.
Eddie and Jeff, technically didn't like the way Dave played the drums. I know everyone thinks this is an Eddie didn't like Dave thing, but from what I've heard and read from band members is that his playing was just as much of an issue as his personality.
Technically, I think Matt is the best drummer. I also remember a whole bunch of fans moaning when Jack joined the band and the drums didn't sound right.
if they didn't like his playing then why bring him into the band. That seems kinda silly. No one ever will truly know what went down cept for the 5 members of the band at the time and the crew who worked for them. Ed and jeff had just a big of ego as dave did back in those days. It be nice to see ed and dave a make amends and maybe the band can finally give dave a his credit for being a part of the band. It was very dickish to not have dave sign the boxset and instead you have matt sign it. Matt wasn't even around for ten cept for being on the early demos.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Technically, my favorite food is pizza. Technically, I don't enjoy spending time with my in-laws. Technically, I look forward to Friday every week. See what I'm getting at...personal tastes.
Eddie and Jeff, technically didn't like the way Dave played the drums. I know everyone thinks this is an Eddie didn't like Dave thing, but from what I've heard and read from band members is that his playing was just as much of an issue as his personality.
Technically, I think Matt is the best drummer. I also remember a whole bunch of fans moaning when Jack joined the band and the drums didn't sound right.
if they didn't like his playing then why bring him into the band. That seems kinda silly. No one ever will truly know what went down cept for the 5 members of the band at the time and the crew who worked for them. Ed and jeff had just a big of ego as dave did back in those days. It be nice to see ed and dave a make amends and maybe the band can finally give dave a his credit for being a part of the band. It was very dickish to not have dave sign the boxset instead you have matt sign it. Matt wasn't even around for ten cept for being on the early demos.
I agree 100%.
Why not get a new drummer to replace Dave in 1992, if they didn't like him? Why record VS with a drummer who didn't play as they liked? Why record Vitalogy with a drummer who didn't play as they liked?
I DO think that EV and maybe the rest of the band wanted to go in a "new" direction musically, and No Code simply would not have been No Code with Dave A. I think them becoming annoyed with the spotlight created tension and lack of communication within the band. I think Ed wanted to slow down the pace of things and axing Dave allowed for a reset. I think that if the spotlight wasn't so crazy back then, they wouldn't have overreacted so severely. Kinda like if your finger hurts, it's usually not best to hit your toe with a hammer, but it does make you forget about your finger pain.
In my opinion, as far as their live performances, they sacrificed most of the VS and Vitalogy songs in order to change direction for the future. Since Vs and Vitalogy are my favorite material, and their sound was built around Dave's playing, I miss their musicality.
I think Ed and band need to grow a pair of b@lls and give Dave a call, and be gents and give him credit, and stop being d1cks. ...and cutting Dave's photo out of the MTV Unplugged DVD? It really knocked PJ down a few pegs in the respect I used to give them. It shows you how shallow they can be.
Post edited by CJMST3K on
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Technically, my favorite food is pizza. Technically, I don't enjoy spending time with my in-laws. Technically, I look forward to Friday every week. See what I'm getting at...personal tastes.
Eddie and Jeff, technically didn't like the way Dave played the drums. I know everyone thinks this is an Eddie didn't like Dave thing, but from what I've heard and read from band members is that his playing was just as much of an issue as his personality.
Technically, I think Matt is the best drummer. I also remember a whole bunch of fans moaning when Jack joined the band and the drums didn't sound right.
if they didn't like his playing then why bring him into the band. That seems kinda silly. No one ever will truly know what went down cept for the 5 members of the band at the time and the crew who worked for them. Ed and jeff had just a big of ego as dave did back in those days. It be nice to see ed and dave a make amends and maybe the band can finally give dave a his credit for being a part of the band. It was very dickish to not have dave sign the boxset instead you have matt sign it. Matt wasn't even around for ten cept for being on the early demos.
I agree 100%.
Why not get a new drummer to replace Dave in 1992, if they didn't like him? Why record VS with a drummer who didn't play as they liked? Why record Vitalogy with a drummer who didn't play as they liked?
I DO think that EV and maybe the rest of the band wanted to go in a "new" direction musically, and No Code simply would not have been No Code with Dave A.
In my opinion, as far as their live performances, they sacrificed most of the VS and Vitalogy songs in order to change direction for the future. Since Vs and Vitalogy are my favorite material, and their sound was built around Dave's playing, I miss their musicality.
I think Ed and band need to grow a pair of b@lls and give Dave a call, and be gents and give him credit, and stop being d1cks. ...and cutting Dave's photo out of the MTV Unplugged DVD? It really knocked PJ down a few pegs in the respect I used to give them. It shows you how shallow they can be.
agreed 100%
I love that 91-95 era. You had 3 great drummers. Those early shows were raw and had energy. It was like you didn't know if the band was gonna have a metldown right in front of your face. It was very who-ish in a way.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Comments
No sweat dude. I really appreciate that you and JordyWordy took the time to educate people about the differenced in drumming styles of Dave A, Jack, and Matt. It couldn't be more easy to follow.
On a different topic... I didn't realize that I would be referred to as "HH." Maybe I should change my name so as to avoid some kind of inadvertent nazi reference? Thoughts? Just kidding. But not really. :shock:
Hey BB (no nazi reference to be inferred
Thanks and I may be using the term "measure" loosely (played drums 25 years, but never read music). Here's an online definition: "Measure: The unit of measure where the beats on the lines of the staff are divided up into two, three, four beats to a measure".
I was using in this way: "Spin me 'round" = 1 measure. "Roll me over" = 1 measure... and so on. A very short segment of the song where, at the end, the guitar chords start over again. A guitarist may have a better description than I just gave.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Hehe, CJMST3K probably knows a drumkit better than i do! i play bass, cant play drums but i get how they flesh out - a change in the drumming of a song will drive me nuts if it fucks with how the bass sounds/the overall flow of the song.
thankfully CJMST3K (no way of abbreviating that name is there? lol) got it spot on when he said that he cant really tell at live shows - i cant either. on boots its more obvious. at live shows it probably just makes the band sound noisier....combined with playing songs faster. i dont really know though, never saw PJ before Matt joined.
The thing is that if you listen to Wellwater Conspiracy or Harryby McCage its obvious that Matt can do delicate, intricate drumming - so it makes it even more annoying to hear him pound away unimaginatively on certain tracks!
Not all of his takes on old songs are bad - he's brushed up on his Why Go intro....and the beat he does at the end of the Even Flow solo (just as Stone comes back in) is my favourite thing about Even Flow now.
Yes, it's very like Jesus Christ Pose
Love that bit too!
Yeah, it is! so cool. they could play that part out for a good while, my feet wouldnt stop moving.
Thinking about it, few bands play the majority of their catalogue on tour like PJ do (they have a list of like, 20-30 instead per tour), so the demands on whoever drums for PJ are pretty huge. Matt was never gona be able to learn all of...
Ten & Outtakes (20 songs approx)
Dave's songs (23 albums tracks & Bsides)
Jack' s songs (27 album tracks & Bsides)
.....in exactly the style they were written. Maybe the band took a concious decision to not force Matt to imitate Dave - there'd probably have been a backlash too if he had just mimicked such distinctive drumming instead of doing it his way and, to be fair, Jack hadnt copied Dave either.
I for one though, wouldnt complain! Give me the original drums on Rats, Blood, Tremor Christ, or Go and ill be a happy man.
Meant to say earlier, this should be posted as an answer whenever a "Best drummer thread" comes up again, and then the thread should be locked. nicely put
as for dave a......i say kudos for sharing some vintage material with fans.
as to all the rest, total personal choice, perspective....entirely subjective. i loved dave, love matt, not the biggest fan of jack....but all solid drummers with their own styles. really all what connects most with you, but reallly...as already mentioned, i think each has been/is the right drummer at the right time for pj, so for that...i thank them all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
1 minute 40 - love that beat he does. I think it's done during the Deep chorus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuWmcK0i ... annel_page
(Alone starts at about 1:10 mark)
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Alone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzwqOl6bbAg
Rock on!
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
You know as someone who plays drums I could argue this point until my face turns blue. :P
What exactly can Matt do better than Dave? He isn't as fluid in his movements, his feet definitely are NOT better (Again listen to his calf go crazy on State of Love and Trust) He can't play faster (Listen to any live Porch)
Is it maybe because of his Jazz technique? That's the only thing I could think of that might put Matt higher than Dave, because based on pure talent, the argument isn't even close.
And sorry Jenny, I've never argued this (I'm still a newbie here)
And I don't like the way Matt plays who you are either. And for that matter the way Jack played Given to Fly on SVT was amazing. Matt doesn't do that either.. :(
That being said I still love Matt as a drummer, and I love Jack to. Just as a drummer I know how difficult it is to mimic Dave's style.
I was going to say the same thing!
Matt is getting better at Who You Are. I was lucky enough to see a private rehearsal with them, and I got to watch Matt from right behind him.
But Matt unfortunately can't match or come close to the intricacies and timing that Dave had, or even matching how Jack played on Dave's material, which in effect was a simpler version of Dave's playing. (see previous page - I explained it in high detail with video comparisons).
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I watched those video comparisons, you hit blood right on the nose!
And what I loved about Jack is you can tell he actually took the time to listen to prior records. A lot of the time it sounds like Matt is just doing his own thing on the older stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqRytQospMA
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Toronto 10/01/00
Toronto 06/28/03
Kitchner 09/11/05
London 09/12/05
Hamilton 09/13/05
Toronto 05/9/06
Toronto 05/10/06
Please play SATANS BED
yes, i know. but its seems just about as likely of them getting dave A back...plus that video is fucking amazing, so i posted it.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Why you say that "technically Matt is the best drummer". Is there a list of stats your looking at or something?
I think that, technically, Dave was the best drummer in PJ.
If you go here and scroll down to the 5th post, it explains why I believe Dave's work, particularly on early material, is technically the best: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=95437&start=75
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Was it a requirement when Matt joined PJ that he had to play like anyone else? or did they ask him to play drums and then ask him to play the songs that used to be played by someone else? I would think he should be able to do his own thing since he is his own person. Clearly, he has to follow the music to a point.. but why not allow him the ability to be free/creative and change it up a bit?
I know you can't *hear* me asking this question so I'll make it clear - I'm not attacking. I'm just confused and asking for conversation on this point. I just don't understand the expectation that Matt should have to try to play the drums just like Dave or just like Jack. I personally think that is the neat thing about individuality in musicians. An example would be when PJ does a cover of a song - it's okay that the cover doesn't sound exactly like the original - they are adding some "PJ" to the recipe. I personally like messing with recipies
Thanks - again, i'm just asking the question. Makes me nervous to post considering how messages get misinterpreted on this board.
I understand his statement, and I agree.
Matt didn't seem to give a lot of the early songs much of a listen, and just seemed to jam it out with the band, and however he decided to play it is how it continued regardless of fan's familiarity or enjoyment of the original arrangement.
I believe PJ said to each drummer to play however they want.
For those of us who enjoyed the early stuff more, it's kinda like this: Imagine Ed was kicked out of the band, and they have a new singer, and instead of learning the words, the new singer just came up with new words instead. Would you enjoy it the same? Does your "messing with recipes" scenario hold water in this situation?
(all smiles - no attacks
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I love the music PJ creates and plays. I absolutely love Ed's voice. I love Ed's voice with the PJ music. I love Ed's voice with any band I've heard him sing with. If Ed left PJ, and the band found another singer... I would be willing to give it a listen... maybe I'd still be there and maybe not. However, one thing is for certain - I would follow Ed's voice and ride the wave where it takes me. Now, as to whether I would continue to listen to PJ with the PJ songs but new singer using new lyrics.. it would have to depend on how the music changes. Doesn't mean I wouldn't miss the old, but I do think I would be able to separate out that it is a new person, it is a new band, and I would either continue to love it and stick with it or not.
Don't get me wrong.. I loved watching Dave play and do miss his enthusiasm - but clearly his absence has not killed my PJ addiction. Ed's absence might.
To reminisce about the old days... watch this crazy scene - absolutely insane - the security in the front row stay busy the entire time, Ed disappears at some point near the end into the crowd, Stone smashes his guitar into tiny pieces, and Jeff is practicing skateboarding while he's playing, and fans are throwing things on stage the entire song... it's amazing they all got off stage alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bswse16jGi8&NR=1
Thanks for responding respectfully CJMST3K !!!
Anytime DreamOfAngels.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Eddie and Jeff, technically didn't like the way Dave played the drums. I know everyone thinks this is an Eddie didn't like Dave thing, but from what I've heard and read from band members is that his playing was just as much of an issue as his personality.
Technically, I think Matt is the best drummer. I also remember a whole bunch of fans moaning when Jack joined the band and the drums didn't sound right.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
I agree 100%.
Why not get a new drummer to replace Dave in 1992, if they didn't like him? Why record VS with a drummer who didn't play as they liked? Why record Vitalogy with a drummer who didn't play as they liked?
I DO think that EV and maybe the rest of the band wanted to go in a "new" direction musically, and No Code simply would not have been No Code with Dave A. I think them becoming annoyed with the spotlight created tension and lack of communication within the band. I think Ed wanted to slow down the pace of things and axing Dave allowed for a reset. I think that if the spotlight wasn't so crazy back then, they wouldn't have overreacted so severely. Kinda like if your finger hurts, it's usually not best to hit your toe with a hammer, but it does make you forget about your finger pain.
In my opinion, as far as their live performances, they sacrificed most of the VS and Vitalogy songs in order to change direction for the future. Since Vs and Vitalogy are my favorite material, and their sound was built around Dave's playing, I miss their musicality.
I think Ed and band need to grow a pair of b@lls and give Dave a call, and be gents and give him credit, and stop being d1cks. ...and cutting Dave's photo out of the MTV Unplugged DVD? It really knocked PJ down a few pegs in the respect I used to give them. It shows you how shallow they can be.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr-Cr999fy0
I love that 91-95 era. You had 3 great drummers. Those early shows were raw and had energy. It was like you didn't know if the band was gonna have a metldown right in front of your face. It was very who-ish in a way.
Sammi: Wanna just break up?