I miss Dave but the band reached a boiling point and something had to give, it's unfortunate but he had to go. Ed was fucked from all the attention and becoming more reclusive. Communication amongst the band broke down badly to the point where they barely spoke to each other.
I remember watching the SNL show after Kurt died and how uncertain and angry all of the guys except Dave appeared. Dave was having fun rocking the fuck out with a big smile on his face enjoying himself, he seemed out of place. I'm sure this urked Ed increasingly, which is unfortunate.
Ed wanted to pull back and i think Stone and Jeff understood, Mike wasn't happy about it but knew it had to be done to save Ed's sanity. Dave on the other hand wanted things to blow up bigger and didn't see what the big deal was and that was the deciding factor most of us assume.
Jack Irons was the saving grace as every band member has stated on numerous occasions. He forced all of the guys to start talking and work out their differances and they became better musicians and friends because of it.
Out of all the drummers i feel Dave had the most passion and played with the highest level of intensity every single night. When things starting getting volatile he seemed to played like every night could be his last.
Jack Irons had the most flavour but Matt overall is the better drummer on a techincal level and seems to connect better with the guys.Jeff said Matt and him had have the best chemistry compared to the past drummers.
thanks for the link and thank you for the memories Dave!
I LOVE your assessment Volition! I agree... except I think that Matt is not the better drummer on a technical level... Matt does connect with the band more, AND Matt is a beast of a drummer - but I would still give it to Abbruzzese and Chamberlain on technical abilities.
Jack & Matt saved PJ.... Dave did not cause the issues they were having. But I think "sacrificing" Abbruzzese gave them a sense of control over the popularity too. If they were not as popular nor having internal conflicts on so many things, I think Dave would not have been canned.
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*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
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*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I love his cymbal work; the more cymbals the better I say; come on Matt switch back to the Ayottes and add some china and splash cymbals!
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I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
I love his cymbal work; the more cymbals the better I say; come on Matt switch back to the Ayottes and add some china and splash cymbals!
Haha... yeah, a china really wouldn't hurt. Matt has been changing for the better though. I've noticed one or two new crashes he's playing on. ...all the more chance he might accidentally choose to hit one.
ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
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*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
From 1:55 onwards it's just immense. I love the guy big time, but I also wouldn't mind if he started hitting a few more symbals again!
Matt in PJ is a completely different drummer than he was in SG.
Many SG songs have the drums as a central focus, in PJ drums have become more of a rhythm holder (good or bad).
I think coming in the guys pretty much told him what they wanted from him and that was that.
I think coming in the guys pretty much told him what they wanted from him and that was that.
I'm guessing they may have told Matt that he has freedom to play, but they probably also said they didn't like Dave's use of cymbals... but I'm just speculating.
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*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I miss Dave but the band reached a boiling point and something had to give, it's unfortunate but he had to go. Ed was fucked from all the attention and becoming more reclusive. Communication amongst the band broke down badly to the point where they barely spoke to each other.
I remember watching the SNL show after Kurt died and how uncertain and angry all of the guys except Dave appeared. Dave was having fun rocking the fuck out with a big smile on his face enjoying himself, he seemed out of place. I'm sure this urked Ed increasingly, which is unfortunate.
Ed wanted to pull back and i think Stone and Jeff understood, Mike wasn't happy about it but knew it had to be done to save Ed's sanity. Dave on the other hand wanted things to blow up bigger and didn't see what the big deal was and that was the deciding factor most of us assume.
Jack Irons was the saving grace as every band member has stated on numerous occasions. He forced all of the guys to start talking and work out their differances and they became better musicians and friends because of it.
Out of all the drummers i feel Dave had the most passion and played with the highest level of intensity every single night. When things starting getting volatile he seemed to played like every night could be his last.
Jack Irons had the most flavour but Matt overall is the better drummer on a techincal level and seems to connect better with the guys.Jeff said Matt and him had have the best chemistry compared to the past drummers.
thanks for the link and thank you for the memories Dave!
My understanding was that it was Ed and Jeff that were pissed with Dave.
I believe Ed was upset with Dave for wanting to be a "rockstar" when the band was trying to take a step back. I don't know why Jeff was pissed, but listening to old boots maybe it was because Jeff couldn't keep up (not a knock on Jeff at all). The two of them would get off rhythm really bad at times in that era. Some boots I have are pretty bad, and songs at time would go through a bit of a mid-song, non-bridge "transition" where it seemed like Jeff and Dave would have to figure it out on the fly.
I think Jack and Matt are just much easier to play with from a bass player's perspective (I play mostly guitar and some drums myself but could see how playing bass with Dave could be tricky).
It would not surprise me if Jeff and the group wanted Dave to change it up a bit, and he flat out said "no".
I think that Ed never got along with Dave and always wanted irons as the drummer (even believing he would be drumming in PJ when getting that demo-cassette). I don't think Dave wanted to be a rockstar á motley crue but he enjoyed the success of the band. But maybe he didn't have a place in the plan Eddie had for PJ when he became the powerfactor in the band-
I don't think Stone and especially Mike had ANY problems with Dave. Dave and Mike seemed to be great friends and having fun together.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
I think that Ed never got along with Dave and always wanted irons as the drummer (even believing he would be drumming in PJ when getting that demo-cassette). I don't think Dave wanted to be a rockstar á motley crue but he enjoyed the success of the band. But maybe he didn't have a place in the plan Eddie had for PJ when he became the powerfactor in the band-
I don't think Stone and especially Mike had ANY problems with Dave. Dave and Mike seemed to be great friends and having fun together.
Mike is a sweetheart, and Dave seemed like one too. I can see why they would get along so well.
Here's rare footage of him chatting about drumming. It's the only footage I've seen where he's talking. I don't see any "rock star" guy here. Just a nice, cool dude who loved playing, and was damn good at it.
Here's rare footage of him chatting about drumming. It's the only footage I've seen where he's talking. I don't see any "rock star" guy here. Just a nice, cool dude who loved playing, and was damn good at it.
Here's rare footage of him chatting about drumming. It's the only footage I've seen where he's talking. I don't see any "rock star" guy here. Just a nice, cool dude who loved playing, and was damn good at it.
Out of all the drummers i feel Dave had the most passion and played with the highest level of intensity every single night. When things starting getting volatile he seemed to played like every night could be his last.
Jack Irons had the most flavor but Matt overall is the better drummer on a technical level and seems to connect better with the guys.Jeff said Matt and him had have the best chemistry compared to the past drummer
Thanks Volition, you put into words what I've been trying to in all these Drummer discussions. The '91-'94 years we all can agree had the most passion, I regret not being able to see them during those years. That said they were also very tumultuous for the band, and unfortunately that era ended with the firing of Dave.
I also agree strongly with the other poster who pointed out what Ed, Jeff and Mike have all stated in various interviews over the years. Jack and Matt saved the band, they both came into the band during important times and help anchor their efforts both professionally and emotionally.
I know there will always be the arguments on here of who the best Pearl Jam drummer was, but if we could move the argument from our perspectives on the outside looking in to their position being on the inside the most important element would most definitely be chemistry. While chemistry between band members might not be as vigorous a discussion as who's the best drummer, for the members of Pearl Jam I think it's the most important aspect in their careers right now. I think they truly enjoy each other, and I think they are better connected to each other than during any part of their career. They all give credit to Matt for their good relationship, I feel in earlier years it was Stone who was the intermediary between Ed, Jeff, Dave and Mike.
Now I think that role is Matt's, I think he keeps the lines of communication between everyone open. I also think he's helped them grow up as being the first band Member with kids, I think he's shown the other members who have recently started families how to balance the rock star life with the soccer/PTA Dad. I think it's so cool he was doing the Rock Band thing with his kids, letting fans play with him and his kids. That's awesome.
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matt is a better player than dave, imo... and pearl jam has played/ put on much better shows in the past decade than most shows in the early nineties. their sound is warmer and they play together much much better. I can understand why people jump on that stupid fuckin dave a. bandwagon though.. only because he set up his cymbals to look cool while he bashes on them the whole time.
Meadowlands, MSG 1, MSG 2 - '98 Jones Beach NY 1 + 3 - '00 MSG 1 + 2 - '03 Boston Garden - '04 Montreal - '05 Boston Garden 1, Meadowlands 1 + 2 - '06 Mansfield 1 - '08 (EV solo) Boston 1 - '08 Chicago 1 - '09 MSG -'10 Brooklyn 1+2 - '13 Central Park - '15 MSG - '16 Fenway - '16 Wrigley - '16 (RRHOF) Brooklyn - '17 Fenway - '18 MSG - '22 MSG 1 - '24
matt is a better player than dave, imo... and pearl jam has played/ put on much better shows in the past decade than most shows in the early nineties. their sound is warmer and they play together much much better. I can understand why people jump on that stupid fuckin dave a. bandwagon though.. only because he set up his cymbals to look cool while he bashes on them the whole time.
...sigh...
How about we do an "apples to apples" comparison, and just base this on the music... deal?
Dave just posted new video of Blood.
I actually don't like how he has all the splashes and such, so for me your assessment of "only because he set up his cymbals to look cool" is way off. Frankly I think he looks a little too "metal" when he plays... but then again, i'm not judging by looks, as you are suggesting. I'm judging strictly by the music.
Dave just posted this video camera footage of him playing. From this angle, you can't see the cymbals very well, so you'll just have to pay attention to the actual playing.
Dave's timing was great. It lined up with the guitar changes. The right hand is playing the china and/or crashes with the guitar changes, and his left hand is keeping a straight snare beat. The snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure as the count restarts each go-around. It has a great musicality to it. Dave also did great, tight rudiments on a tight hihat during this song.
Jack's timing was pretty much identical with Dave's. Jack's right hand was striking the cymbals and his left was keeping a straight snare beat, once again the snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure. He used different cymbals (a ride many times), but Jack "got it" as far as how the cymbals interlocked with the guitar changes, while keeping a steady on the snare. Jack couldn't do the rudiments (imho as a drummer), so he just did a simple beat on the hihat, and his fills were a bit loose. Seeing as how he got the rest of the song right, I won't begrudge him this difference. Dave's "thing" was rudiments, so it's hard for most drummers to compare on that part.
I chose this audience video because it sounded a little less muddy than the pro-shot stuff, and on the latter-half of the video you can see Matt playing more at the 2:00 mark, than the pro-shot stuff. Matt's timing on cymbals is a basic beat - he's not hitting the crashes in timing with the music. Matt's just kinda playing a generic beat and slamming the crashes in time with himself, regardless of how the rest of the song goes. His cymbal hits and snare hits line up twice per measure.
Now I know my description may be lost on some... if you can't hear the difference, I truly envy you. This song used to be a favorite because of how intertwined the cymbal hits and guitar intertwined, plus the rudiments, and now with all the changes, it is no longer.
For those who complain that "Dave played cymbals too much", then where are you now on this? If you count, every measure, Matt is hitting the cymbals 6 times. Dave is only hitting them 4 times. This makes it muddy sounding when Matt is playing (plus not in time with the guitar changes), whereas Dave's cymbal hits were spaced out, so you could hear each one.
In order of my preference on Blood: Dave, Jack, Matt
edit: However dreamweaver, I will agree that on new records, I enjoy Matt's approach. Even simple songs like Light Years sound better with Matt than they probably would have with Dave. I'm commenting strictly on the pre-Matt material, particularly Vs & Vitalogy... and some of Ten and No Code.
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*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Cool videos. I love "Blood" always have.
I think it has always been one of Dave's best and most understated drumming on record.
Personally, I perfer Jack's drumming on "Blood" to Dave's. But as odd as it may seem; Jack's take on the song is very similar to Dave's. Style wise...there's not much of a difference. It's more how the rest of the band plays along with Jack. It's Jack's chemistry with the rest of the band and how he somehow makes the band...Jeff in particular...play better. It's the combination of the band members firing on all cylinders that makes Jack's version better. It may not be solely related to his style, but the band is certainly more on sync in the Jack video compared to the Dave video. If that makes any sense at all.
Although Matt has the chemistry that Jack had with the other members, and what I feel to be superior skills and technique greater to that of Dave A overall...I don't feel like the band has ever nailed a version of "Blood" with Matt behind the kit. There are many issues with the modern take of the song aside from Matt's drumming, but mostly I find his drumming on the song strikingly mediocre in comparisson to that of Dave or Jack.
I don't think the band relates to a song like "Blood" anymore; especially the anger and agression that allowed them to write such a song in the first place. I doubt they'd be able to write an album like Vs. or Vitalogy today. They've just grown up.
The agression and passion the band had during the perriod of 1992-1994 is unmatched. I think alot of people tend to historically credit the departure of Dave A as a turning point in that regard. However, I feel this agression and passion have very little to do with Dave A or his drumming. Dave had the advantage of drumming for the band in the height of their youth and popularity. Obviously this era will always be viewed in a romantic light in comparisson to later incarnations and stages of the bands career. I think this is largely unfair to both Jack and Matt.
I personally feel that although the youthful rage, and agression of the early years may not be as present these days, there can be no mistake that the band...from a musical standpoint...has only gotten better with age. There are alot less mistakes these days and the holes are filled much better now than before.
I have no doubt that as musicians and live performers, the current lineup of Pearl Jam could easily blow the early Pearl Jam off the stage every single night of the week....however they would certainly have to tighten up their version of "Blood"
cool to see the comparison videos of the same songs - ive often tried that but gotten bored trying to find footage of the 3 drummers doing one song, where u can see them was hard, so fair play for the effort there!!
Blood is one that ive often thought sounds more "sludgy" than it used to. the sparse drumming worked much better on it. the drums filled out the gaps in the low end bass, and it rides really well. Nowadays, a song of brute force, less intricate.
as for Matt playing cymbals more than Dave - ive noticed that before too. from a bass playing perspective, Matts drumming style means all the dynamics are lost in a blur of fast drums on songs: Hail Hail is a perfect example. a Jack-era song, Matt does the same thing on it as on Blood. arguably, because the guitars & bass move SO much more on this song, its harder to hear - but overall the end result: the song loses its funk/rhythm beat, and is a much angrier driven song. i love both styles, but its funny just how drastically it changes the song.
BUT take Animal and Matts drumming changes it for the better imo. The main part is pretty similar...but the heavy fills are significantly better at the parts where the guitars all hit at the same time (pre-chorus) - so there's a much better dynamic overall through the song of normal-heavy-normal-heavy-normal-heavy... as opposed to the same beat the whole time. EXCEPT the outro - Dave changes the beat and owns the ending, matt plays it through the same as rest of the song.
So it depends on the songs for me really - im not saying Matt doesnt acknowledge the rhythm/bass dynamnics - songs like Sleight Of Hand, Moonlight, You Are, Light years...theres great drumming on those - but on some older songs he looks like he never even looked at the old style of drumming, and just plays it in standard rhythms instead. on funky songs it means something is lost, and on more "metal" songs like Animal, it works.
So it depends on the songs for me really - im not saying Matt doesnt acknowledge the rhythm/bass dynamnics - songs like Sleight Of Hand, Moonlight, You Are, Light years...theres great drumming on those - but on some older songs he looks like he never even looked at the old style of drumming, and just plays it in standard rhythms instead. on funky songs it means something is lost, and on more "metal" songs like Animal, it works.
I think your last paragraph nails it pretty close.
Matt is great on Matt-written material. But on MUCH of the early material, it's as though he's never heard the previously played drumming by the several other drummers, and just plays it straight. Just kinda sounds like a temporary stand-in drummer who's not as familiar, yes particularly on funky songs, but on a number of others too.
I'd say that I really do prefer Dave's version of Animal for all his work on it. When listening at a show, it's hard to hear all the nuance, so I don't miss it on this song as much when I'm there, but when I hear it on a bootleg, Animal is now just another fastforward song like Evenflow, SOLAT, and a long list of early stuff.
On Hail Hail, if Matt just slowed-the-fuck-down, it would sound so much better - without changing his style of playing it.
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*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Re: Dave's "hard" drumming - Matt uses a lighter cymbal (A series, rather than Z) and birch-shelled drums, rather than the typical rock drummer's maple shelled drums - you couldn't tell if he hit the drums as hard as "Bam Bam" Abruzzese or not because the projection & tone are completely different.
Dave put up so more videos including Limelight 1992.
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And I'll add that this is probably one of the best threads I've ever read (towards the end anyways). If people want to know how to back up the point they're trying to make CJMST3K and JordyWordy set the standard on this.
Nice f'n work you guys.
"A lot more people are capable of being big out there that just don't give themselves a chance." -Stone Gossard
And I'll add that this is probably one of the best threads I've ever read (towards the end anyways). If people want to know how to back up the point they're trying to make CJMST3K and JordyWordy set the standard on this.
Nice f'n work you guys.
Thanks HH.
I'm always glad to be thorough. The difference between drummers are night and apples.
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*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I agree with the comments that this is the best thread ... it's definitely the best I've ever read.
I have never played an instrument and don't understand a lot of the technical terminology. But I have read the drummer comparisons for years on the Pit and never quite understood how the differences between the drummers could be so significant they they'd spark the debate that they do around here. But seeing those comments with the video links really highlighted the different styles of Dave A, Jack & Matt. The Blood videos were especially compelling.
@ CMJST3K: What does it mean to say that a drummer hits a cymbal X times per measure?
1996: Toronto
1998: Barrie
2000: Saratoga Springs
2003: Buffalo, Toronto
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto x2, Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Gorge #1
2007: London, Dusseldorf, Vic, Lolla
2008: WPB, Tampa, DC, MSG x2, Hartford, Boston x2, Beacon
2009: Toronto, Chicago x2, Seattle x2, LA #3&4, San Diego, Philly x4
2010: Cleveland, Buffalo, Hartford
2011: Montreal, Toronto x2, Hamilton
2012: Missoula
2013: London, Wrigley, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Hartford, Dallas, OKC
Comments
I LOVE your assessment Volition! I agree... except I think that Matt is not the better drummer on a technical level... Matt does connect with the band more, AND Matt is a beast of a drummer - but I would still give it to Abbruzzese and Chamberlain on technical abilities.
Jack & Matt saved PJ.... Dave did not cause the issues they were having. But I think "sacrificing" Abbruzzese gave them a sense of control over the popularity too. If they were not as popular nor having internal conflicts on so many things, I think Dave would not have been canned.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I thought the world...Turns out the world thought me
Haha... yeah, a china really wouldn't hurt. Matt has been changing for the better though. I've noticed one or two new crashes he's playing on. ...all the more chance he might accidentally choose to hit one.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I'm with you on that. That's one of the biggest things I miss about Dave being in the band.
I don't miss the splashes, but the general use of cymbals and china, yes I miss!
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-nzmd86qO8
From 1:55 onwards it's just immense. I love the guy big time, but I also wouldn't mind if he started hitting a few more symbals again!
Matt in PJ is a completely different drummer than he was in SG.
Many SG songs have the drums as a central focus, in PJ drums have become more of a rhythm holder (good or bad).
I think coming in the guys pretty much told him what they wanted from him and that was that.
MAAAN... Matt was NASTY!! Very nice!!! I do wish he would play "wetter" too.
I'm guessing they may have told Matt that he has freedom to play, but they probably also said they didn't like Dave's use of cymbals... but I'm just speculating.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
My understanding was that it was Ed and Jeff that were pissed with Dave.
I believe Ed was upset with Dave for wanting to be a "rockstar" when the band was trying to take a step back. I don't know why Jeff was pissed, but listening to old boots maybe it was because Jeff couldn't keep up (not a knock on Jeff at all). The two of them would get off rhythm really bad at times in that era. Some boots I have are pretty bad, and songs at time would go through a bit of a mid-song, non-bridge "transition" where it seemed like Jeff and Dave would have to figure it out on the fly.
I think Jack and Matt are just much easier to play with from a bass player's perspective (I play mostly guitar and some drums myself but could see how playing bass with Dave could be tricky).
It would not surprise me if Jeff and the group wanted Dave to change it up a bit, and he flat out said "no".
But, who knows...
I don't think Stone and especially Mike had ANY problems with Dave. Dave and Mike seemed to be great friends and having fun together.
Mike is a sweetheart, and Dave seemed like one too. I can see why they would get along so well.
Here's rare footage of him chatting about drumming. It's the only footage I've seen where he's talking. I don't see any "rock star" guy here. Just a nice, cool dude who loved playing, and was damn good at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAYoo5SDM9A
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Charlotte 03
Asheville 04
Atlanta 12
Greenville 16, Columbia 16
Seattle 18
Nashville 22
Ohana Festival 24 x2
where is the footage??
haha... whoops!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAYoo5SDM9A
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Thanks Volition, you put into words what I've been trying to in all these Drummer discussions. The '91-'94 years we all can agree had the most passion, I regret not being able to see them during those years. That said they were also very tumultuous for the band, and unfortunately that era ended with the firing of Dave.
I also agree strongly with the other poster who pointed out what Ed, Jeff and Mike have all stated in various interviews over the years. Jack and Matt saved the band, they both came into the band during important times and help anchor their efforts both professionally and emotionally.
I know there will always be the arguments on here of who the best Pearl Jam drummer was, but if we could move the argument from our perspectives on the outside looking in to their position being on the inside the most important element would most definitely be chemistry. While chemistry between band members might not be as vigorous a discussion as who's the best drummer, for the members of Pearl Jam I think it's the most important aspect in their careers right now. I think they truly enjoy each other, and I think they are better connected to each other than during any part of their career. They all give credit to Matt for their good relationship, I feel in earlier years it was Stone who was the intermediary between Ed, Jeff, Dave and Mike.
Now I think that role is Matt's, I think he keeps the lines of communication between everyone open. I also think he's helped them grow up as being the first band Member with kids, I think he's shown the other members who have recently started families how to balance the rock star life with the soccer/PTA Dad. I think it's so cool he was doing the Rock Band thing with his kids, letting fans play with him and his kids. That's awesome.
Jones Beach NY 1 + 3 - '00
MSG 1 + 2 - '03
Boston Garden - '04
Montreal - '05
Boston Garden 1, Meadowlands 1 + 2 - '06
Mansfield 1 - '08
(EV solo) Boston 1 - '08
Chicago 1 - '09
MSG -'10
Brooklyn 1+2 - '13
Central Park - '15
MSG - '16
Fenway - '16
Wrigley - '16
(RRHOF) Brooklyn - '17
Fenway - '18
MSG - '22
MSG 1 - '24
How about we do an "apples to apples" comparison, and just base this on the music... deal?
Dave just posted new video of Blood.
I actually don't like how he has all the splashes and such, so for me your assessment of "only because he set up his cymbals to look cool" is way off. Frankly I think he looks a little too "metal" when he plays... but then again, i'm not judging by looks, as you are suggesting. I'm judging strictly by the music.
Dave just posted this video camera footage of him playing. From this angle, you can't see the cymbals very well, so you'll just have to pay attention to the actual playing.
Dave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoclgBmo ... annel_page
Dave's timing was great. It lined up with the guitar changes. The right hand is playing the china and/or crashes with the guitar changes, and his left hand is keeping a straight snare beat. The snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure as the count restarts each go-around. It has a great musicality to it. Dave also did great, tight rudiments on a tight hihat during this song.
Here's Jack playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsP0TQvKniQ
Jack's timing was pretty much identical with Dave's. Jack's right hand was striking the cymbals and his left was keeping a straight snare beat, once again the snare and cymbal hits only line up once per measure. He used different cymbals (a ride many times), but Jack "got it" as far as how the cymbals interlocked with the guitar changes, while keeping a steady on the snare. Jack couldn't do the rudiments (imho as a drummer), so he just did a simple beat on the hihat, and his fills were a bit loose. Seeing as how he got the rest of the song right, I won't begrudge him this difference. Dave's "thing" was rudiments, so it's hard for most drummers to compare on that part.
Here's Matt playing Blood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO_B2pMTCEw
I chose this audience video because it sounded a little less muddy than the pro-shot stuff, and on the latter-half of the video you can see Matt playing more at the 2:00 mark, than the pro-shot stuff. Matt's timing on cymbals is a basic beat - he's not hitting the crashes in timing with the music. Matt's just kinda playing a generic beat and slamming the crashes in time with himself, regardless of how the rest of the song goes. His cymbal hits and snare hits line up twice per measure.
Now I know my description may be lost on some... if you can't hear the difference, I truly envy you. This song used to be a favorite because of how intertwined the cymbal hits and guitar intertwined, plus the rudiments, and now with all the changes, it is no longer.
For those who complain that "Dave played cymbals too much", then where are you now on this? If you count, every measure, Matt is hitting the cymbals 6 times. Dave is only hitting them 4 times. This makes it muddy sounding when Matt is playing (plus not in time with the guitar changes), whereas Dave's cymbal hits were spaced out, so you could hear each one.
In order of my preference on Blood: Dave, Jack, Matt
edit: However dreamweaver, I will agree that on new records, I enjoy Matt's approach. Even simple songs like Light Years sound better with Matt than they probably would have with Dave. I'm commenting strictly on the pre-Matt material, particularly Vs & Vitalogy... and some of Ten and No Code.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I think it has always been one of Dave's best and most understated drumming on record.
Personally, I perfer Jack's drumming on "Blood" to Dave's. But as odd as it may seem; Jack's take on the song is very similar to Dave's. Style wise...there's not much of a difference. It's more how the rest of the band plays along with Jack. It's Jack's chemistry with the rest of the band and how he somehow makes the band...Jeff in particular...play better. It's the combination of the band members firing on all cylinders that makes Jack's version better. It may not be solely related to his style, but the band is certainly more on sync in the Jack video compared to the Dave video. If that makes any sense at all.
Although Matt has the chemistry that Jack had with the other members, and what I feel to be superior skills and technique greater to that of Dave A overall...I don't feel like the band has ever nailed a version of "Blood" with Matt behind the kit. There are many issues with the modern take of the song aside from Matt's drumming, but mostly I find his drumming on the song strikingly mediocre in comparisson to that of Dave or Jack.
I don't think the band relates to a song like "Blood" anymore; especially the anger and agression that allowed them to write such a song in the first place. I doubt they'd be able to write an album like Vs. or Vitalogy today. They've just grown up.
The agression and passion the band had during the perriod of 1992-1994 is unmatched. I think alot of people tend to historically credit the departure of Dave A as a turning point in that regard. However, I feel this agression and passion have very little to do with Dave A or his drumming. Dave had the advantage of drumming for the band in the height of their youth and popularity. Obviously this era will always be viewed in a romantic light in comparisson to later incarnations and stages of the bands career. I think this is largely unfair to both Jack and Matt.
I personally feel that although the youthful rage, and agression of the early years may not be as present these days, there can be no mistake that the band...from a musical standpoint...has only gotten better with age. There are alot less mistakes these days and the holes are filled much better now than before.
I have no doubt that as musicians and live performers, the current lineup of Pearl Jam could easily blow the early Pearl Jam off the stage every single night of the week....however they would certainly have to tighten up their version of "Blood"
Blood is one that ive often thought sounds more "sludgy" than it used to. the sparse drumming worked much better on it. the drums filled out the gaps in the low end bass, and it rides really well. Nowadays, a song of brute force, less intricate.
as for Matt playing cymbals more than Dave - ive noticed that before too. from a bass playing perspective, Matts drumming style means all the dynamics are lost in a blur of fast drums on songs: Hail Hail is a perfect example. a Jack-era song, Matt does the same thing on it as on Blood. arguably, because the guitars & bass move SO much more on this song, its harder to hear - but overall the end result: the song loses its funk/rhythm beat, and is a much angrier driven song. i love both styles, but its funny just how drastically it changes the song.
Hail Hail - Jack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOAzJFd4KDA
Hail Hail - Matt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=megBhs0nQs4
BUT take Animal and Matts drumming changes it for the better imo. The main part is pretty similar...but the heavy fills are significantly better at the parts where the guitars all hit at the same time (pre-chorus) - so there's a much better dynamic overall through the song of normal-heavy-normal-heavy-normal-heavy... as opposed to the same beat the whole time. EXCEPT the outro - Dave changes the beat and owns the ending, matt plays it through the same as rest of the song.
Animal - Dave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIgfYVq5 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_ulJ_Aq ... re=related
Animal - Matt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_jLdC85Ic
So it depends on the songs for me really - im not saying Matt doesnt acknowledge the rhythm/bass dynamnics - songs like Sleight Of Hand, Moonlight, You Are, Light years...theres great drumming on those - but on some older songs he looks like he never even looked at the old style of drumming, and just plays it in standard rhythms instead. on funky songs it means something is lost, and on more "metal" songs like Animal, it works.
I think your last paragraph nails it pretty close.
Matt is great on Matt-written material. But on MUCH of the early material, it's as though he's never heard the previously played drumming by the several other drummers, and just plays it straight. Just kinda sounds like a temporary stand-in drummer who's not as familiar, yes particularly on funky songs, but on a number of others too.
I'd say that I really do prefer Dave's version of Animal for all his work on it. When listening at a show, it's hard to hear all the nuance, so I don't miss it on this song as much when I'm there, but when I hear it on a bootleg, Animal is now just another fastforward song like Evenflow, SOLAT, and a long list of early stuff.
On Hail Hail, if Matt just slowed-the-fuck-down, it would sound so much better - without changing his style of playing it.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Listen to Jeff at around 1:50-2:10 and watch for eddies reaction.
I noticed his playing is completely retarded and then I looked at the comments.
8/7/08, 6/9/09
:geek:
Cincinnati, Columbus 2000
Baltimore 2013
yeah he butchers it for the middle part doesnt he?? maybe he had a sudden daydream or something, but good grief!!
I agree.
And I'll add that this is probably one of the best threads I've ever read (towards the end anyways). If people want to know how to back up the point they're trying to make CJMST3K and JordyWordy set the standard on this.
Nice f'n work you guys.
Thanks HH.
I'm always glad to be thorough. The difference between drummers are night and apples.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I have never played an instrument and don't understand a lot of the technical terminology. But I have read the drummer comparisons for years on the Pit and never quite understood how the differences between the drummers could be so significant they they'd spark the debate that they do around here. But seeing those comments with the video links really highlighted the different styles of Dave A, Jack & Matt. The Blood videos were especially compelling.
@ CMJST3K: What does it mean to say that a drummer hits a cymbal X times per measure?