Kansas abortion doctor shot and killed at church

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  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?

    :roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    soulsinging wrote:
    prfctlefts wrote:
    hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.

    Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.

    As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.
    It was a stupid comparison dogs and cats to aborted babies , you ask a dumb ass question you going to get a smart ass answer and how am I being a hypocrite.

    I believe I'm the one who made that comparison, not ss.
  • CJMST3K
    CJMST3K Posts: 9,722
    soulsinging wrote:

    The difference lies quite simply in:
    pro-life: the fetus is a live human being with rights
    pro-choice: the fetus is not a separate human being with rights prior to birth

    Thus why being against the death penatly and pro-choice is no more contradictory than being against abortion and pro-death penalty. They both make perfect sense in their own way.


    I agree.

    The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?

    Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.

    I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.
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  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    CJMST3K wrote:
    I agree.

    The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?

    Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.

    I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.

    I think the problem with this, though, is that the current data about pain is not as concrete as the date about viability. Also, what if the fetus can be given anesthesia? (I believe in some cases it is.)
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    scb wrote:
    prfctlefts wrote:
    suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?

    :roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
    What difference does it make how would you like to have your skull crushed and your brains sucked out of your head. If You think they dont feel any pain you're nuts. Oh and just so you guys Know Im against the death Penalty.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    scb wrote:
    prfctlefts wrote:
    suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?

    :roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
    What difference does it make how would you like to have your skull crushed and your brains sucked out of your head. If You think they dont feel any pain you're nuts. Oh and just so you guys Know Im against the death Penalty.

    There are "aspiration abortions" and there are abortions that are not called aspiration abortions. These are not aspiration abortions. He was mistaken to imply that they are. That was my whole point. I never said they don't feel pain and I couldn't give two shits about your opinion of the death penalty.
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    I was refering the to the comment SS made about Pro lifers being for the death Penalty and it's pretty obvious that you only care about your opinion with out you having to state that you could care less about mine. Have a nice day
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    I was refering the to the comment SS made about Pro lifers being for the death Penalty and it's pretty obvious that you only care about your opinion with out you having to state that you could care less about mine. Have a nice day

    Hey man (or woman), if I were having a conversation with you about the death penalty, then I would care about your opinion on that subject - but I'm not engaged in such a conversation. No need to judge. You have a nice day as well.
  • CJMST3K
    CJMST3K Posts: 9,722
    scb wrote:
    CJMST3K wrote:
    I agree.

    The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?

    Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.

    I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.

    I think the problem with this, though, is that the current data about pain is not as concrete as the date about viability. Also, what if the fetus can be given anesthesia? (I believe in some cases it is.)


    Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.

    I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.
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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    soulsinging wrote:
    Ah, then I agree. I thought you were saying that nobody should assume this guy was religious. I think it's clear he was and I think it's also clear that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal-abortion movement is Christian in origin. But that does not necessarily mean that all Christians are thus, let alone that all Christians are whackjobs ready to knock off people that disagree with them.

    I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense to me that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal abortion movement would be Christian in origin.

    What I mean is that one of the essential questions is whether it's murder. It doesn't make sense that only Christians believe that. That's not really a religious debate.

    Furthermore, lots of non-religious people believe that murder is wrong, so if people who aren't Christian think that abortion is murder, wouldn't they then think it was wrong for non-religious reasons?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    CJMST3K wrote:
    Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.

    I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.

    Yeah, I see what you're saying and I basically agree. I don't think anyone obtaining or performing an abortion wants the fetus to suffer, regardless of the person's reason for doing it.

    I think the misinformation and lack of information out there is what makes this a difficult discussion. There is obviously a point at which the embryo/fetus does not have the capacity to suffer/feel pain. And yet, there are people who would have others believe that this is not only possible, but definitely happening, during abortion at any stage. Since this debate is happening in the realm of absurdity & sensationalism, I think it clouds any real discussion about when the fetus actually CAN feel pain and what should be done about it, which is further complicated by grey area with regard to solid evidence on the subject.

    For instance, some states mandate that patients be counseled that their fetus can feel pain. It's hard to take them seriously when they are saying this to women with very early pregnancies that we know are not capable of feeling pain. It seems more like an anti-choice scare tactic than a legitimate concern, and those who know it's not true push back against such policies. I think if only accurate information were provided in an agenda-free setting, however, it would be easier for everyone to get on the same page on this.

    To be honest, for those few pregnancies that are far enough along for the fetus to actually have the potential to suffer, I think the providers themselves do (or did before they were murdered) do what they can to minimize this. (But I don't have a source to back that up right now.) Whether or not lethal injection is the best way to minimize fetal suffering is up to the medical professionals to decide.
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,236
    Abortion Clinic Manager Reveals He Warned FBI of Suspect in Murder of Dr. George Tiller, Says Killing Could Have Been Avoided you can listen/look or read today's story.

    Peace
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  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    scb wrote:
    CJMST3K wrote:
    Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.

    I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.

    Yeah, I see what you're saying and I basically agree. I don't think anyone obtaining or performing an abortion wants the fetus to suffer, regardless of the person's reason for doing it.

    I think the misinformation and lack of information out there is what makes this a difficult discussion. There is obviously a point at which the embryo/fetus does not have the capacity to suffer/feel pain. And yet, there are people who would have others believe that this is not only possible, but definitely happening, during abortion at any stage. Since this debate is happening in the realm of absurdity & sensationalism, I think it clouds any real discussion about when the fetus actually CAN feel pain and what should be done about it, which is further complicated by grey area with regard to solid evidence on the subject.

    For instance, some states mandate that patients be counseled that their fetus can feel pain. It's hard to take them seriously when they are saying this to women with very early pregnancies that we know are not capable of feeling pain. It seems more like an anti-choice scare tactic than a legitimate concern, and those who know it's not true push back against such policies. I think if only accurate information were provided in an agenda-free setting, however, it would be easier for everyone to get on the same page on this.

    To be honest, for those few pregnancies that are far enough along for the fetus to actually have the potential to suffer, I think the providers themselves do (or did before they were murdered) do what they can to minimize this. (But I don't have a source to back that up right now.) Whether or not lethal injection is the best way to minimize fetal suffering is up to the medical professionals to decide.

    so instead of all the bloviating why don't you just say if the fetus doesn't feel anything it's no big deal, because let's be honest none of you could care less if it feels any pain or not.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    so instead of all the bloviating why don't you just say if the fetus doesn't feel anything it's no big deal, because let's be honest none of you could care less if it feels any pain or not.

    :roll: You don't know what the fuck I care about and you obviously didn't comprehend my post. I care if even you feel pain, and I have less regard for you than I do for a fetus I would abort.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    g under p wrote:
    Abortion Clinic Manager Reveals He Warned FBI of Suspect in Murder of Dr. George Tiller, Says Killing Could Have Been Avoided you can listen/look or read today's story.

    Peace

    Thanks very much for the link. Peace to you as well. :)
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    prfctlefts wrote:
    soulsinging wrote:
    prfctlefts wrote:
    hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.

    Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.

    As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.
    It was a stupid comparison dogs and cats to aborted babies , you ask a dumb ass question you going to get a smart ass answer and how am I being a hypocrite.

    You are a hypocrite because you asked a dumb ass question (why doesn't scb adopt all the cats and dogs) and got a smart ass answer (me asking you why you didn't adopt all the unwanted babies) and whined like a baby about it. Guess you can dish it out, but you can't take it... I call that hypocrisy.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    For more info on & photos of this condition, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

    Anencephaly: What did Dr. George Tiller do?

    Who was Dr. George Tiller, and what did his medical practice and death have to do with a condition called anencephaly?

    Dr. George Tiller, was a late-term abortion specialist killed recently after being repeatedly targeted in what many are describing as a campaign of domestic terrorism against abortion practitioners in general, and specifically against the few doctors in the United States who perform very late-term abortions.

    Dr. George Tiller was one of the few doctors to specialize in aborting babies with a fatal condition called anencephaly. In an anencephalic fetus, the neural tubes never fully close, causing partial brain and skull loss. Essentially, the baby is missing most of the top of his or her head. Babies with anencephaly always die before or shortly after birth. Anencephaly is often potentially fatal for the mother as well.

    Aborting a fetus with anencephaly is legal, but very few doctors perform late-term abortions, partly due to the controversy, and partly due to the rarity of the condition. One reason so few doctors specialize in this procedure is that only about one out of 150,000 to 200,000 babies born in the United States each year suffers from anencephaly.

    Many people wrestle with the question of whether parents who know their baby suffers from anencephaly, should they have the right to terminate the pregnancy? Others wonder if people who do not face the situation should even weigh in. The law varies by state.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-8543-SF-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m6d2-Anencephaly-What-did-Dr-George-Tiller-do
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    The realities of late-term abortion

    Dr. George Tiller was murdered on Sunday. His practice was one of the few places in the state of Kansas a woman could obtain an abortion and one of the few places in the country a women could safely receive a late-term abortion.

    Eight-seven percent of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. The irony of restricting services is it leads to more late-term procedures. By the time a woman who lives in one of these counties locates a clinic, raises the money, and obtains the transportation she is likely to be past 16 weeks and into the second trimester. The economically disadvantaged are of course disproportionately affected.

    Those opposed to abortion promote the idea that late-term procedures, after the first 16 weeks, are common and unnecessary. They are neither. Only 3.5% of abortions in the U.S. happen between 16 and 20 weeks and 1.1% happen at 21 weeks or later.

    Who are the women in this 4.6% who seek a second-trimester abortion?


    A young couple thrilled to be pregnant. At their 18 week ultrasound they find out their baby has holoprosencephaly, a condition where there is no brain and a single eye, like a Cyclops. After an agonizing two weeks they decide on an abortion.

    A 24-year-old who suffers from systemic lupus erythematosis (a severe vascular condition). Since becoming pregnant she has developed kidney failure and serious heart problems. She has started medications highly toxic to a fetus. She is 18 weeks pregnant.

    A 34-year-old, pregnant with her first child. She ruptured her membranes at 22 weeks and now has a serious infection that has spread to her blood stream. Attempts to induce labor for the past 36 hours have been unsuccessful. The options to save her life are hysterectomy or abortion.

    A 37-year-old, mother of three. The father of her children rarely pays his child-support. It is actually better when he doesn’t come around because he is often violent. She was just accepted in a special training program and hopes it will lead to a job and a better life. By the time she had enough money to travel and pay for the procedure she is 17 weeks.

    Women seeking second trimester abortions all have one thing in common: dashed dreams and lost hope. These women did not just wake up one morning and “change their mind about being pregnant”. They deal with realities most of us are lucky we never have to contemplate - rape, serious birth defects, domestic violence, extreme poverty, and horrible medical conditions.

    Dr. Tiller helped women no one else would or could.

    Who will help them now?

    http://image.examiner.com/x-4079-SF-Sex ... m-abortion
  • WaveCameCrashin
    WaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    Ok look if the woman is at a serious health risk then yes I understand, I can accept that, but if sh'e getting av abortion just becuase her and her partner failed to use birth control and it's going to be an inconvenience to their life than I have a problem with that. Is that so hard to understand.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Ok look if the woman is at a serious health risk then yes I understand, I can accept that, but if sh'e getting av abortion just becuase her and her partner failed to use birth control and it's going to be an inconvenience to their life than I have a problem with that. Is that so hard to understand.

    I suggest you take more time to truly understand the reasons women have abortions. In the meantime, here's an example of a reason for a later-term abortion that doesn't fit nicely into either of your categories:

    "Bilateral renal agenesis is the uncommon and serious failure of both a fetus' kidneys to develop during gestation, and is one causative agent of Potter sequence. This absence of kidneys causes oligohydramnios, a deficiency of amniotic fluid in a pregnant woman, which can place extra pressure on the developing baby and cause further malformations. The condition is frequently, but not always the result of a genetic disorder, and is more common in infants born to one or more parents with a malformed or absent kidney. Most infants that are born alive do not live beyond four hours."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal_agenesis

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