suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?
:roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.
Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.
As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.
It was a stupid comparison dogs and cats to aborted babies , you ask a dumb ass question you going to get a smart ass answer and how am I being a hypocrite.
I believe I'm the one who made that comparison, not ss.
The difference lies quite simply in:
pro-life: the fetus is a live human being with rights
pro-choice: the fetus is not a separate human being with rights prior to birth
Thus why being against the death penatly and pro-choice is no more contradictory than being against abortion and pro-death penalty. They both make perfect sense in their own way.
I agree.
The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?
Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.
I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.
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The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?
Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.
I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.
I think the problem with this, though, is that the current data about pain is not as concrete as the date about viability. Also, what if the fetus can be given anesthesia? (I believe in some cases it is.)
suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?
:roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
What difference does it make how would you like to have your skull crushed and your brains sucked out of your head. If You think they dont feel any pain you're nuts. Oh and just so you guys Know Im against the death Penalty.
suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?
:roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
What difference does it make how would you like to have your skull crushed and your brains sucked out of your head. If You think they dont feel any pain you're nuts. Oh and just so you guys Know Im against the death Penalty.
There are "aspiration abortions" and there are abortions that are not called aspiration abortions. These are not aspiration abortions. He was mistaken to imply that they are. That was my whole point. I never said they don't feel pain and I couldn't give two shits about your opinion of the death penalty.
I was refering the to the comment SS made about Pro lifers being for the death Penalty and it's pretty obvious that you only care about your opinion with out you having to state that you could care less about mine. Have a nice day
I was refering the to the comment SS made about Pro lifers being for the death Penalty and it's pretty obvious that you only care about your opinion with out you having to state that you could care less about mine. Have a nice day
Hey man (or woman), if I were having a conversation with you about the death penalty, then I would care about your opinion on that subject - but I'm not engaged in such a conversation. No need to judge. You have a nice day as well.
The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?
Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.
I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.
I think the problem with this, though, is that the current data about pain is not as concrete as the date about viability. Also, what if the fetus can be given anesthesia? (I believe in some cases it is.)
Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.
I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.
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Ah, then I agree. I thought you were saying that nobody should assume this guy was religious. I think it's clear he was and I think it's also clear that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal-abortion movement is Christian in origin. But that does not necessarily mean that all Christians are thus, let alone that all Christians are whackjobs ready to knock off people that disagree with them.
I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense to me that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal abortion movement would be Christian in origin.
What I mean is that one of the essential questions is whether it's murder. It doesn't make sense that only Christians believe that. That's not really a religious debate.
Furthermore, lots of non-religious people believe that murder is wrong, so if people who aren't Christian think that abortion is murder, wouldn't they then think it was wrong for non-religious reasons?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.
I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.
Yeah, I see what you're saying and I basically agree. I don't think anyone obtaining or performing an abortion wants the fetus to suffer, regardless of the person's reason for doing it.
I think the misinformation and lack of information out there is what makes this a difficult discussion. There is obviously a point at which the embryo/fetus does not have the capacity to suffer/feel pain. And yet, there are people who would have others believe that this is not only possible, but definitely happening, during abortion at any stage. Since this debate is happening in the realm of absurdity & sensationalism, I think it clouds any real discussion about when the fetus actually CAN feel pain and what should be done about it, which is further complicated by grey area with regard to solid evidence on the subject.
For instance, some states mandate that patients be counseled that their fetus can feel pain. It's hard to take them seriously when they are saying this to women with very early pregnancies that we know are not capable of feeling pain. It seems more like an anti-choice scare tactic than a legitimate concern, and those who know it's not true push back against such policies. I think if only accurate information were provided in an agenda-free setting, however, it would be easier for everyone to get on the same page on this.
To be honest, for those few pregnancies that are far enough along for the fetus to actually have the potential to suffer, I think the providers themselves do (or did before they were murdered) do what they can to minimize this. (But I don't have a source to back that up right now.) Whether or not lethal injection is the best way to minimize fetal suffering is up to the medical professionals to decide.
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Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.
I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.
Yeah, I see what you're saying and I basically agree. I don't think anyone obtaining or performing an abortion wants the fetus to suffer, regardless of the person's reason for doing it.
I think the misinformation and lack of information out there is what makes this a difficult discussion. There is obviously a point at which the embryo/fetus does not have the capacity to suffer/feel pain. And yet, there are people who would have others believe that this is not only possible, but definitely happening, during abortion at any stage. Since this debate is happening in the realm of absurdity & sensationalism, I think it clouds any real discussion about when the fetus actually CAN feel pain and what should be done about it, which is further complicated by grey area with regard to solid evidence on the subject.
For instance, some states mandate that patients be counseled that their fetus can feel pain. It's hard to take them seriously when they are saying this to women with very early pregnancies that we know are not capable of feeling pain. It seems more like an anti-choice scare tactic than a legitimate concern, and those who know it's not true push back against such policies. I think if only accurate information were provided in an agenda-free setting, however, it would be easier for everyone to get on the same page on this.
To be honest, for those few pregnancies that are far enough along for the fetus to actually have the potential to suffer, I think the providers themselves do (or did before they were murdered) do what they can to minimize this. (But I don't have a source to back that up right now.) Whether or not lethal injection is the best way to minimize fetal suffering is up to the medical professionals to decide.
so instead of all the bloviating why don't you just say if the fetus doesn't feel anything it's no big deal, because let's be honest none of you could care less if it feels any pain or not.
so instead of all the bloviating why don't you just say if the fetus doesn't feel anything it's no big deal, because let's be honest none of you could care less if it feels any pain or not.
:roll: You don't know what the fuck I care about and you obviously didn't comprehend my post. I care if even you feel pain, and I have less regard for you than I do for a fetus I would abort.
hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.
Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.
As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.
It was a stupid comparison dogs and cats to aborted babies , you ask a dumb ass question you going to get a smart ass answer and how am I being a hypocrite.
You are a hypocrite because you asked a dumb ass question (why doesn't scb adopt all the cats and dogs) and got a smart ass answer (me asking you why you didn't adopt all the unwanted babies) and whined like a baby about it. Guess you can dish it out, but you can't take it... I call that hypocrisy.
Who was Dr. George Tiller, and what did his medical practice and death have to do with a condition called anencephaly?
Dr. George Tiller, was a late-term abortion specialist killed recently after being repeatedly targeted in what many are describing as a campaign of domestic terrorism against abortion practitioners in general, and specifically against the few doctors in the United States who perform very late-term abortions.
Dr. George Tiller was one of the few doctors to specialize in aborting babies with a fatal condition called anencephaly. In an anencephalic fetus, the neural tubes never fully close, causing partial brain and skull loss. Essentially, the baby is missing most of the top of his or her head. Babies with anencephaly always die before or shortly after birth. Anencephaly is often potentially fatal for the mother as well.
Aborting a fetus with anencephaly is legal, but very few doctors perform late-term abortions, partly due to the controversy, and partly due to the rarity of the condition. One reason so few doctors specialize in this procedure is that only about one out of 150,000 to 200,000 babies born in the United States each year suffers from anencephaly.
Many people wrestle with the question of whether parents who know their baby suffers from anencephaly, should they have the right to terminate the pregnancy? Others wonder if people who do not face the situation should even weigh in. The law varies by state.
Dr. George Tiller was murdered on Sunday. His practice was one of the few places in the state of Kansas a woman could obtain an abortion and one of the few places in the country a women could safely receive a late-term abortion.
Eight-seven percent of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. The irony of restricting services is it leads to more late-term procedures. By the time a woman who lives in one of these counties locates a clinic, raises the money, and obtains the transportation she is likely to be past 16 weeks and into the second trimester. The economically disadvantaged are of course disproportionately affected.
Those opposed to abortion promote the idea that late-term procedures, after the first 16 weeks, are common and unnecessary. They are neither. Only 3.5% of abortions in the U.S. happen between 16 and 20 weeks and 1.1% happen at 21 weeks or later.
Who are the women in this 4.6% who seek a second-trimester abortion?
A young couple thrilled to be pregnant. At their 18 week ultrasound they find out their baby has holoprosencephaly, a condition where there is no brain and a single eye, like a Cyclops. After an agonizing two weeks they decide on an abortion.
A 24-year-old who suffers from systemic lupus erythematosis (a severe vascular condition). Since becoming pregnant she has developed kidney failure and serious heart problems. She has started medications highly toxic to a fetus. She is 18 weeks pregnant.
A 34-year-old, pregnant with her first child. She ruptured her membranes at 22 weeks and now has a serious infection that has spread to her blood stream. Attempts to induce labor for the past 36 hours have been unsuccessful. The options to save her life are hysterectomy or abortion.
A 37-year-old, mother of three. The father of her children rarely pays his child-support. It is actually better when he doesn’t come around because he is often violent. She was just accepted in a special training program and hopes it will lead to a job and a better life. By the time she had enough money to travel and pay for the procedure she is 17 weeks.
Women seeking second trimester abortions all have one thing in common: dashed dreams and lost hope. These women did not just wake up one morning and “change their mind about being pregnant”. They deal with realities most of us are lucky we never have to contemplate - rape, serious birth defects, domestic violence, extreme poverty, and horrible medical conditions.
Dr. Tiller helped women no one else would or could.
Ok look if the woman is at a serious health risk then yes I understand, I can accept that, but if sh'e getting av abortion just becuase her and her partner failed to use birth control and it's going to be an inconvenience to their life than I have a problem with that. Is that so hard to understand.
Ok look if the woman is at a serious health risk then yes I understand, I can accept that, but if sh'e getting av abortion just becuase her and her partner failed to use birth control and it's going to be an inconvenience to their life than I have a problem with that. Is that so hard to understand.
I suggest you take more time to truly understand the reasons women have abortions. In the meantime, here's an example of a reason for a later-term abortion that doesn't fit nicely into either of your categories:
"Bilateral renal agenesis is the uncommon and serious failure of both a fetus' kidneys to develop during gestation, and is one causative agent of Potter sequence. This absence of kidneys causes oligohydramnios, a deficiency of amniotic fluid in a pregnant woman, which can place extra pressure on the developing baby and cause further malformations. The condition is frequently, but not always the result of a genetic disorder, and is more common in infants born to one or more parents with a malformed or absent kidney. Most infants that are born alive do not live beyond four hours."
Ok look if the woman is at a serious health risk then yes I understand, I can accept that, but if sh'e getting av abortion just becuase her and her partner failed to use birth control and it's going to be an inconvenience to their life than I have a problem with that. Is that so hard to understand.
Also, failing to use birth control is not a reason for having an abortion, it's a reason for having become pregnant. It's important to remember that, regardless of the circumstances that resulted in pregnancy, once pregnancy has occurred you have only that circumstance (the pregnancy itself) from which to move forward. You can't take back the pregnancy; you can only deal with it as best as possible.
Ok look I know ther's lots of reasons that have to do with the health of the mother,but if you're going to sit and tell me women dont get abortions for reasons like I mentioned your nuts. Let me tell you something just so you know where Im coming from.I dated a girl in my early 20's who had an abortion for this reason and I was crushed It's not what I wanted I wanted to keep it or we could have at least put it up for adoption. So please dont assume Im just some crazed pro lifer cos Im only speaking from what I experienced.
Ok look I know ther's lots of reasons that have to do with the health of the mother,but if you're going to sit and tell me women dont get abortions for reasons like I mentioned your nuts. Let me tell you something just so you know where Im coming from.I dated a girl in my early 20's who had an abortion for this reason and I was crushed It's not what I wanted I wanted to keep it or we could have at least put it up for adoption. So please dont assume Im just some crazed pro lifer cos Im only speaking from what I experienced.
Well I'm truly sorry for your loss. And I appreciate your perspective.
I understand that it's difficult to avoid projecting your experience/judgement/pain onto the general population of women who have abortions, but I ask that you try to see things from each individual woman's perspective rather than your own. This is infinitly diffficult, however, because each woman's context is unique - and that's all I'm ever really trying to say in these abortion threads.
I have been giving health of the mother & fetal abnormality examples because I thought this thread was about late-term abortions, since it was Dr. Tiller's provision of these procedures that made him such a target. For various reasons, I think it really is extremely unlikely that a woman would have a late-term (i.e. 3rd-trimester) abortion just because having a baby would be an inconvenience.
If we're talking about early abortions, I'm sure this is much more likely - but that still depends on how you define "inconvenience". I don't like the implication that the decision is made lightly. Also, most women give an average of 3 differnt reasons for having an abortion, so it's not like they don't have a real reason. You can debate the validity of those reasons if you'd like - but I still think it's important to try as best as possible to get inside the heart and mind of the women making these difficult decisions, if you're truly interested in understanding them.
A very unsettling article from yesterdays' Guardian, which interviews a guy running for the governership of Georgia who "publishes what is widely regarded as a hit list of medics and openly advocates the execution of women who have terminations."
I cannot get my head around the warped mentality of someone who sees no hypocrisy in calling themselves pro-life while encouraging and committing cold-blooded murder. Or calling themselves Christian, for that matter...
That level of extremist self-righteous self-delusion saddens, sickens & scares me.
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00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
By Barb Shelly, Kansas City Star editorial page columnist
Phillip Wood and his wife were joyfully preparing for the births of twin boys when, midway through the pregnancy, everything went wrong.
An amniocentesis revealed a disease of the placenta. Both twins were dying. With his wife prone on a cot in the back of a van, Wood drove from their home in Columbia, Mo., to a hospital in Florida for a surgical procedure that might save one of the boys.
Doctors at the Catholic-affiliated hospital told them neither twin would survive, and his wife was at risk of a ruptured uterus. That would make her infertile and could threaten her life.
“They had no information as to where we should go. They just said, find an abortion,” said Wood, a professor of psychology at the University of Missouri in Columbia.
Wood and his wife drove to a clinic in Illinois, but doctors there elected not to abort the fetuses, saying the size of one twin’s head was larger than their guidelines allowed.
With his wife in physical and emotional distress, Wood drove to Women’s Health Care Services in Wichita.
They ran the gantlet of protesters, who pleaded with Woods’ wife not to end her pregnancy. Inside, they signed forms required by the state informing them, among other things, that their sons looked human and could feel pain.
After all that, they met George Tiller.
“I wasn’t prepared for this active, energetic, very vocal guy,” Wood said. “He took time to listen to us. He was very appropriate and involved me in all steps of the abortion.”
After the twins had been aborted, Tiller gave the parents time with them. They performed a brief baptismal ceremony.
“While I held the bodies of my sons he stood to the side and wept, very quietly and very briefly,” Wood said.
Tiller, the physician slain on Sunday in Wichita, was too often defined by his adversaries. On Web sites, TV and radio talk shows, and in legislative hearings, they portrayed him as the reckless “abortionist,” willing to euthanize babies close to birth just so the mother could fit into a prom dress or attend a rock concert.
That portrayal always defied logic. Would someone in the third trimester of pregnancy really travel to the heart of Kansas and pay a $6,000 medical fee just to fit into a size 6 party dress?
“There has been a very deliberate strategy by the most extreme opponents of abortion to demonize Dr. Tiller and the kind of service he provided, and by extension to demonize women and their motives,” said Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri.
It’s a cruel deception.
The overwhelming majority of the 250 to 300 women a year who sought late-term abortions from Tiller had planned their pregnancies. They came to him heartbroken and afraid, carrying fetuses with malfunctioning kidneys, missing organs and syndromes certain to cause death in the womb or soon after birth.
A much smaller number of late-term patients were rape and incest victims, sometimes very young girls. Some were directed to Tiller by prosecutors.
Contrary to the false portrayal of him by anti-abortion activists and politicians, Tiller didn’t automatically consent to perform an abortion for any patient who requested one. He understood the constraints of Kansas law and he knew he was being watched.
But even in those instances, he tried to help. Over the years, Tiller arranged dozens of adoptions, Brownlie said.
Inside Tiller’s fortressed clinic, Phillip Wood and his wife met two other couples who, like them, were in the throes of crisis pregnancies.
The walls of the clinic, Wood noted, were papered with hundreds of cards and letters from patients expressing gratitude. Wood and his wife later added one of their own.
Wood wrote another letter this week. It was to the congregation of Reformation Lutheran Church, the sanctuary where Tiller was shot while handing out bulletins before the Sunday service.
“I believe you have lost a selfless and dedicated health care professional and someone who did the best he knew how to serve others,” Wood wrote.
The prom queen who talked her way into a late-term abortion doesn’t exist. She’s a creation of Tiller’s enemies.
Wood and his wife are real people, and so are the thousands of patients who wrote the thank-you notes that now serve as a memorial wall to a fallen physician. They are the ones who should define his memory.
And none of that matters (but it is an interesting read, thanks).
Because no matter the circumstances of what he was doing, he didn't deserve to die.
And it's sad that a legit issue has now come to this. While the prom queen looking for a 3rd timester abortion may not exist...the number of "prom queens" and "prom kings" looking for their little problem to go away after conception is still huge and certainly a legit issue to discuss.
And none of that matters (but it is an interesting read, thanks).
Because no matter the circumstances of what he was doing, he didn't deserve to die.
And it's sad that a legit issue has now come to this. While the prom queen looking for a 3rd timester abortion may not exist...the number of "prom queens" and "prom kings" looking for their little problem to go away after conception is still huge and certainly a legit issue to discuss.
absolutely.
however, right along with that.....how and what he did for a living more than likly is the reason why someone targeted and killed him, and also where this topic continued on.
scb - thank you! excellent articles, most especilly about the fetal abnormalities. and yes, for providing illustrative numbers for just how many (rare) late term abortions truly are...and many of the agonizing reasons for them. i think far too many think it is simply an 'easy decision' that someone makes at the last moment.
cincy.....as to the prom king/queen....i hear ya. i do know how you feel on the topic of abortion so for those 'convenience' issues, we absolutely disagree. in those instances, it absolutely comes down to when you truly believe human life begins. i know i fully support the rights for abortion, do not believe a full, human life begins at conception....and certainly before a central nervous sytem comes into existence, no sensory perception, etc. however, of course i would far prefer to see less/next to no abortions...b/c it would be better for all involved not to have to get to that point. thus, education and ease of access to all forms of contraception is so important, and i am also a big proponent of the morning after pill......far better than an abortion later, tho i know some consider them abortion as well, and even IUDs. there is no way to appease everyone on the topic, that's for sure.
i think it's great for everyone to be truly educated on the topic...so again, thanks for all your excellent/informative posts scb. and you bet, as abortion IS legal, even late-term abortions in certain cicumstances.....it's even more disturbing that not only was someone murdered, but murdered b/c he was providing a completely legal service to assist women.
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*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Comments
:roll: I know what aspiration is. But jlew implied that babies are vacuumed out whole and I was merely pointing out that any vacuum part of the procedure is ancillary by the 3rd trimester. Certain types of abortions are called aspiration abortions and this isn't one of them. This is a stupid conversation. :roll:
I believe I'm the one who made that comparison, not ss.
I agree.
The only thing that I'll add is that I wish it were not based on "viability", which is an opinion of a third party that can be swayed. I think they should base it on the ability of the fetus/baby/human (whatever semantics fits your agenda) to feel pain. Otherwise, isn't an abortion at whatever age the fetus/baby/human is a cruel act to perform on him/her?
Technically my niece probably could have been aborted by this doctor the same day she was born since she was born a premie, but she survived with a little intervention. I don't think that her being outside the womb at that premature age made her any less of a baby or human than if she were inside. She'd still feel pain if I stabbed her hand with a fork, so I don't know why she wouldn't feel worse pain having her brains sucked out of her skull.
I don't think any pro-life people (except the crazy religious ones) are trying to tell someone who doesn't want a child to have one. I think their only concern is not to create a cruel experience for an "experiencing" being, whether you choose to believe it's "alive" or otherwise.
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I think the problem with this, though, is that the current data about pain is not as concrete as the date about viability. Also, what if the fetus can be given anesthesia? (I believe in some cases it is.)
There are "aspiration abortions" and there are abortions that are not called aspiration abortions. These are not aspiration abortions. He was mistaken to imply that they are. That was my whole point. I never said they don't feel pain and I couldn't give two shits about your opinion of the death penalty.
Hey man (or woman), if I were having a conversation with you about the death penalty, then I would care about your opinion on that subject - but I'm not engaged in such a conversation. No need to judge. You have a nice day as well.
Date is the only concrete thing, but it is arbitrary to the experience of the fetus/baby/human.
I think that if they are going to do an abortion, particularly when the brain is formed, they should disconnect the embellical cord and give it a lethal injection. It seems to me that death row prisoners and pets being euthanized get treated more humanely. It's easier to think it's just a non-thinking non-feeling "thing", but I would like to think doctors would eliminate the pain of what they're about to do to the fetus/baby/human.
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
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*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense to me that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal abortion movement would be Christian in origin.
What I mean is that one of the essential questions is whether it's murder. It doesn't make sense that only Christians believe that. That's not really a religious debate.
Furthermore, lots of non-religious people believe that murder is wrong, so if people who aren't Christian think that abortion is murder, wouldn't they then think it was wrong for non-religious reasons?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yeah, I see what you're saying and I basically agree. I don't think anyone obtaining or performing an abortion wants the fetus to suffer, regardless of the person's reason for doing it.
I think the misinformation and lack of information out there is what makes this a difficult discussion. There is obviously a point at which the embryo/fetus does not have the capacity to suffer/feel pain. And yet, there are people who would have others believe that this is not only possible, but definitely happening, during abortion at any stage. Since this debate is happening in the realm of absurdity & sensationalism, I think it clouds any real discussion about when the fetus actually CAN feel pain and what should be done about it, which is further complicated by grey area with regard to solid evidence on the subject.
For instance, some states mandate that patients be counseled that their fetus can feel pain. It's hard to take them seriously when they are saying this to women with very early pregnancies that we know are not capable of feeling pain. It seems more like an anti-choice scare tactic than a legitimate concern, and those who know it's not true push back against such policies. I think if only accurate information were provided in an agenda-free setting, however, it would be easier for everyone to get on the same page on this.
To be honest, for those few pregnancies that are far enough along for the fetus to actually have the potential to suffer, I think the providers themselves do (or did before they were murdered) do what they can to minimize this. (But I don't have a source to back that up right now.) Whether or not lethal injection is the best way to minimize fetal suffering is up to the medical professionals to decide.
Peace
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so instead of all the bloviating why don't you just say if the fetus doesn't feel anything it's no big deal, because let's be honest none of you could care less if it feels any pain or not.
:roll: You don't know what the fuck I care about and you obviously didn't comprehend my post. I care if even you feel pain, and I have less regard for you than I do for a fetus I would abort.
Thanks very much for the link. Peace to you as well.
You are a hypocrite because you asked a dumb ass question (why doesn't scb adopt all the cats and dogs) and got a smart ass answer (me asking you why you didn't adopt all the unwanted babies) and whined like a baby about it. Guess you can dish it out, but you can't take it... I call that hypocrisy.
Anencephaly: What did Dr. George Tiller do?
Who was Dr. George Tiller, and what did his medical practice and death have to do with a condition called anencephaly?
Dr. George Tiller, was a late-term abortion specialist killed recently after being repeatedly targeted in what many are describing as a campaign of domestic terrorism against abortion practitioners in general, and specifically against the few doctors in the United States who perform very late-term abortions.
Dr. George Tiller was one of the few doctors to specialize in aborting babies with a fatal condition called anencephaly. In an anencephalic fetus, the neural tubes never fully close, causing partial brain and skull loss. Essentially, the baby is missing most of the top of his or her head. Babies with anencephaly always die before or shortly after birth. Anencephaly is often potentially fatal for the mother as well.
Aborting a fetus with anencephaly is legal, but very few doctors perform late-term abortions, partly due to the controversy, and partly due to the rarity of the condition. One reason so few doctors specialize in this procedure is that only about one out of 150,000 to 200,000 babies born in the United States each year suffers from anencephaly.
Many people wrestle with the question of whether parents who know their baby suffers from anencephaly, should they have the right to terminate the pregnancy? Others wonder if people who do not face the situation should even weigh in. The law varies by state.
http://www.examiner.com/x-8543-SF-Health-News-Examiner~y2009m6d2-Anencephaly-What-did-Dr-George-Tiller-do
Dr. George Tiller was murdered on Sunday. His practice was one of the few places in the state of Kansas a woman could obtain an abortion and one of the few places in the country a women could safely receive a late-term abortion.
Eight-seven percent of U.S. counties have no abortion provider. The irony of restricting services is it leads to more late-term procedures. By the time a woman who lives in one of these counties locates a clinic, raises the money, and obtains the transportation she is likely to be past 16 weeks and into the second trimester. The economically disadvantaged are of course disproportionately affected.
Those opposed to abortion promote the idea that late-term procedures, after the first 16 weeks, are common and unnecessary. They are neither. Only 3.5% of abortions in the U.S. happen between 16 and 20 weeks and 1.1% happen at 21 weeks or later.
Who are the women in this 4.6% who seek a second-trimester abortion?
A young couple thrilled to be pregnant. At their 18 week ultrasound they find out their baby has holoprosencephaly, a condition where there is no brain and a single eye, like a Cyclops. After an agonizing two weeks they decide on an abortion.
A 24-year-old who suffers from systemic lupus erythematosis (a severe vascular condition). Since becoming pregnant she has developed kidney failure and serious heart problems. She has started medications highly toxic to a fetus. She is 18 weeks pregnant.
A 34-year-old, pregnant with her first child. She ruptured her membranes at 22 weeks and now has a serious infection that has spread to her blood stream. Attempts to induce labor for the past 36 hours have been unsuccessful. The options to save her life are hysterectomy or abortion.
A 37-year-old, mother of three. The father of her children rarely pays his child-support. It is actually better when he doesn’t come around because he is often violent. She was just accepted in a special training program and hopes it will lead to a job and a better life. By the time she had enough money to travel and pay for the procedure she is 17 weeks.
Women seeking second trimester abortions all have one thing in common: dashed dreams and lost hope. These women did not just wake up one morning and “change their mind about being pregnant”. They deal with realities most of us are lucky we never have to contemplate - rape, serious birth defects, domestic violence, extreme poverty, and horrible medical conditions.
Dr. Tiller helped women no one else would or could.
Who will help them now?
http://image.examiner.com/x-4079-SF-Sex ... m-abortion
I suggest you take more time to truly understand the reasons women have abortions. In the meantime, here's an example of a reason for a later-term abortion that doesn't fit nicely into either of your categories:
"Bilateral renal agenesis is the uncommon and serious failure of both a fetus' kidneys to develop during gestation, and is one causative agent of Potter sequence. This absence of kidneys causes oligohydramnios, a deficiency of amniotic fluid in a pregnant woman, which can place extra pressure on the developing baby and cause further malformations. The condition is frequently, but not always the result of a genetic disorder, and is more common in infants born to one or more parents with a malformed or absent kidney. Most infants that are born alive do not live beyond four hours."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renal_agenesis
Also, failing to use birth control is not a reason for having an abortion, it's a reason for having become pregnant. It's important to remember that, regardless of the circumstances that resulted in pregnancy, once pregnancy has occurred you have only that circumstance (the pregnancy itself) from which to move forward. You can't take back the pregnancy; you can only deal with it as best as possible.
Well I'm truly sorry for your loss. And I appreciate your perspective.
I understand that it's difficult to avoid projecting your experience/judgement/pain onto the general population of women who have abortions, but I ask that you try to see things from each individual woman's perspective rather than your own. This is infinitly diffficult, however, because each woman's context is unique - and that's all I'm ever really trying to say in these abortion threads.
I have been giving health of the mother & fetal abnormality examples because I thought this thread was about late-term abortions, since it was Dr. Tiller's provision of these procedures that made him such a target. For various reasons, I think it really is extremely unlikely that a woman would have a late-term (i.e. 3rd-trimester) abortion just because having a baby would be an inconvenience.
If we're talking about early abortions, I'm sure this is much more likely - but that still depends on how you define "inconvenience". I don't like the implication that the decision is made lightly. Also, most women give an average of 3 differnt reasons for having an abortion, so it's not like they don't have a real reason. You can debate the validity of those reasons if you'd like - but I still think it's important to try as best as possible to get inside the heart and mind of the women making these difficult decisions, if you're truly interested in understanding them.
For the record, I think this is the question I've been trying to answer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ju ... rge-tiller
I cannot get my head around the warped mentality of someone who sees no hypocrisy in calling themselves pro-life while encouraging and committing cold-blooded murder. Or calling themselves Christian, for that matter...
That level of extremist self-righteous self-delusion saddens, sickens & scares me.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Let Dr. Tiller's patients tell his story
By Barb Shelly, Kansas City Star editorial page columnist
Phillip Wood and his wife were joyfully preparing for the births of twin boys when, midway through the pregnancy, everything went wrong.
An amniocentesis revealed a disease of the placenta. Both twins were dying. With his wife prone on a cot in the back of a van, Wood drove from their home in Columbia, Mo., to a hospital in Florida for a surgical procedure that might save one of the boys.
Doctors at the Catholic-affiliated hospital told them neither twin would survive, and his wife was at risk of a ruptured uterus. That would make her infertile and could threaten her life.
“They had no information as to where we should go. They just said, find an abortion,” said Wood, a professor of psychology at the University of Missouri in Columbia.
Wood and his wife drove to a clinic in Illinois, but doctors there elected not to abort the fetuses, saying the size of one twin’s head was larger than their guidelines allowed.
With his wife in physical and emotional distress, Wood drove to Women’s Health Care Services in Wichita.
They ran the gantlet of protesters, who pleaded with Woods’ wife not to end her pregnancy. Inside, they signed forms required by the state informing them, among other things, that their sons looked human and could feel pain.
After all that, they met George Tiller.
“I wasn’t prepared for this active, energetic, very vocal guy,” Wood said. “He took time to listen to us. He was very appropriate and involved me in all steps of the abortion.”
After the twins had been aborted, Tiller gave the parents time with them. They performed a brief baptismal ceremony.
“While I held the bodies of my sons he stood to the side and wept, very quietly and very briefly,” Wood said.
Tiller, the physician slain on Sunday in Wichita, was too often defined by his adversaries. On Web sites, TV and radio talk shows, and in legislative hearings, they portrayed him as the reckless “abortionist,” willing to euthanize babies close to birth just so the mother could fit into a prom dress or attend a rock concert.
That portrayal always defied logic. Would someone in the third trimester of pregnancy really travel to the heart of Kansas and pay a $6,000 medical fee just to fit into a size 6 party dress?
“There has been a very deliberate strategy by the most extreme opponents of abortion to demonize Dr. Tiller and the kind of service he provided, and by extension to demonize women and their motives,” said Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri.
It’s a cruel deception.
The overwhelming majority of the 250 to 300 women a year who sought late-term abortions from Tiller had planned their pregnancies. They came to him heartbroken and afraid, carrying fetuses with malfunctioning kidneys, missing organs and syndromes certain to cause death in the womb or soon after birth.
A much smaller number of late-term patients were rape and incest victims, sometimes very young girls. Some were directed to Tiller by prosecutors.
Contrary to the false portrayal of him by anti-abortion activists and politicians, Tiller didn’t automatically consent to perform an abortion for any patient who requested one. He understood the constraints of Kansas law and he knew he was being watched.
But even in those instances, he tried to help. Over the years, Tiller arranged dozens of adoptions, Brownlie said.
Inside Tiller’s fortressed clinic, Phillip Wood and his wife met two other couples who, like them, were in the throes of crisis pregnancies.
The walls of the clinic, Wood noted, were papered with hundreds of cards and letters from patients expressing gratitude. Wood and his wife later added one of their own.
Wood wrote another letter this week. It was to the congregation of Reformation Lutheran Church, the sanctuary where Tiller was shot while handing out bulletins before the Sunday service.
“I believe you have lost a selfless and dedicated health care professional and someone who did the best he knew how to serve others,” Wood wrote.
The prom queen who talked her way into a late-term abortion doesn’t exist. She’s a creation of Tiller’s enemies.
Wood and his wife are real people, and so are the thousands of patients who wrote the thank-you notes that now serve as a memorial wall to a fallen physician. They are the ones who should define his memory.
Because no matter the circumstances of what he was doing, he didn't deserve to die.
And it's sad that a legit issue has now come to this. While the prom queen looking for a 3rd timester abortion may not exist...the number of "prom queens" and "prom kings" looking for their little problem to go away after conception is still huge and certainly a legit issue to discuss.
absolutely.
however, right along with that.....how and what he did for a living more than likly is the reason why someone targeted and killed him, and also where this topic continued on.
scb - thank you! excellent articles, most especilly about the fetal abnormalities. and yes, for providing illustrative numbers for just how many (rare) late term abortions truly are...and many of the agonizing reasons for them. i think far too many think it is simply an 'easy decision' that someone makes at the last moment.
cincy.....as to the prom king/queen....i hear ya. i do know how you feel on the topic of abortion so for those 'convenience' issues, we absolutely disagree. in those instances, it absolutely comes down to when you truly believe human life begins. i know i fully support the rights for abortion, do not believe a full, human life begins at conception....and certainly before a central nervous sytem comes into existence, no sensory perception, etc. however, of course i would far prefer to see less/next to no abortions...b/c it would be better for all involved not to have to get to that point. thus, education and ease of access to all forms of contraception is so important, and i am also a big proponent of the morning after pill......far better than an abortion later, tho i know some consider them abortion as well, and even IUDs. there is no way to appease everyone on the topic, that's for sure.
i think it's great for everyone to be truly educated on the topic...so again, thanks for all your excellent/informative posts scb. and you bet, as abortion IS legal, even late-term abortions in certain cicumstances.....it's even more disturbing that not only was someone murdered, but murdered b/c he was providing a completely legal service to assist women.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)