Kansas abortion doctor shot and killed at church

know1 · June 2009

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

polaris_x · June 2009

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

how do you know the guy who shot him didn't do it because of religious reasons?

soulsinging · June 2009

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

I beg to differ. What this shows is that there is a split among Christian sects. Some more willing to accept what he does than others. But I don't know anyone that is for outlawing abortion, let alone to the extent that they will picket/become violent, that does not feel it is a moral issue based on their religious values. I have yet to meet a single vehemently pro-life person that is not also an evangelical/fundamentalist Christian.

_ · June 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

Yes, but if, say, you can see in an ultrasound that the child's brian and spinal cord have grown outside of its body, you know it will not be capable of life for very long and the short life it may have will be costly and filled with suffering. Why would you want to go through with that?

if the brain or spinal cord have grown outside the body, I would consider that already dead no?

No. As you said, a child isn't dead until it's dead. There are some very horrific things that can happen during human development that don't kill you until after you're born.

jlew24asu · June 2009

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

Yes, but if, say, you can see in an ultrasound that the child's brian and spinal cord have grown outside of its body, you know it will not be capable of life for very long and the short life it may have will be costly and filled with suffering. Why would you want to go through with that?

if the brain or spinal cord have grown outside the body, I would consider that already dead no?

No. As you said, a child isn't dead until it's dead. There are some very horrific things that can happen during human development that don't kill you until after you're born.

but a body can not survive if the brain and/or spinal cord aren't growing inside the body. so by my legal and professional opinion

, that baby is dead.

decides2dream · June 2009

polaris_x wrote:

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

how do you know the guy who shot him didn't do it because of religious reasons?

both could absolutely be true.
and i do agree, not ALL who oppose abortion do so b/c of religious reasons, just like all those who are pro-choice aren't all crazed baby-killers. there are 'moderates' on both sides of this issue.

jlew24asu · June 2009

decides2dream wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

how do you know the guy who shot him didn't do it because of religious reasons?

both could absolutely be true.
and i do agree, not ALL who oppose abortion do so b/c of religious reasons, just like all those who are pro-choice aren't all crazed baby-killers. there are 'moderates' on both sides of this issue.

ready for this.....

I agree

that happens from time to time

decides2dream · June 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

how do you know the guy who shot him didn't do it because of religious reasons?

both could absolutely be true.
and i do agree, not ALL who oppose abortion do so b/c of religious reasons, just like all those who are pro-choice aren't all crazed baby-killers. there are 'moderates' on both sides of this issue.

ready for this.....

I agree

that happens from time to time

i have, on rare occasions, noticed this phenomena as well.

it DOES happen.

edit.....

jlew24asu wrote:

but a body can not survive if the brain and/or spinal cord aren't growing inside the body. so by my legal and professional opinion , that baby is dead.

not to doubt both your legal and professional opinion

....but in reality, such a baby CAN still be alive in the womb, and it takes an abortion to end it's *life*.....otherwise the woman has to go and give birth to it, just to see it die. so unless someone wants to go thru the painful, heart-wrenching trauma of giving birth to such a baby, or give birth to a still born baby...it's still considered abortion. i know this b/c it happened to a relative of mine, one who deseperately wanted said child, and yet did opt for an abortion b/c yes.....the baby would definitely die once born, tho not dead in the womb. she did however, go on to have 2 healthy, beautiul and well-loved children.

WaveCameCrashin · June 2009

scb wrote:

ledvedderman wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I know its a legal procedure still doesn't make it right though, why dont go look at some pics of a late term abortion and then tell me how you feel. I would post a link on here but I'd probably get banned. Like I said I dont agree with the man getting gunned down in his church but at the same time it's really hard for me to feel sorry for him. He didnt get the name Tiller the baby killer for nothin :twisted:

Do photos of dead soldiers have the same effect on you and make you anti-war?

Excellent question. I was just wondering if we would be justified in killing soldiers because they legally killed others in war. Or prison executioners. Or those people at animal control who put dogs and cats down because they don't have the resources to care for them. (I know, I know.... animals are less worthy of life than potential people. :roll: ) Or, if not justified, whether prfctlefts would at least feel sorry for them if they were gunned down while ushering at their churches.

Excellent Question??? :roll: :roll: War and abortion ?? Don't you think you're comparing apples to oranges?? Um yeah Pictures of dead soldiers do bother me but you know what they have a choice to enlist there's no draft. Aborted babies don't have a choice.They don"t get a choice at life, See this where all you liberals confuse me . All of you scream about free speech and civil rights and most of you are against the death penalty,but when it comes to abortion screw em what rights.
There were people that went on record that worked for him saying that There were women getting late term abortions even if they weren't in any sort of physical harm. some did it cos having a baby would be an inconvenience for them. and as far as animals go if you care so much about them why dont you go adopt all the strays. or should we just say screw it and just let em roam the streets and keep mating,

know1 · June 2009

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

I beg to differ. What this shows is that there is a split among Christian sects. Some more willing to accept what he does than others. But I don't know anyone that is for outlawing abortion, let alone to the extent that they will picket/become violent, that does not feel it is a moral issue based on their religious values. I have yet to meet a single vehemently pro-life person that is not also an evangelical/fundamentalist Christian.

How is that different that what I said? I was pointing out that people often assume that everyone religious opposes abortion, but here was a doctor at a fairly mainstream church who was accepted by the members of that church.

_ · June 2009

jlew24asu wrote:

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

if the brain or spinal cord have grown outside the body, I would consider that already dead no?

No. As you said, a child isn't dead until it's dead. There are some very horrific things that can happen during human development that don't kill you until after you're born.

but a body can not survive if the brain and/or spinal cord aren't growing inside the body. so by my legal and professional opinion , that baby is dead.

It can't survive for very long, which is why abortion might be appropriate. But legally & medically speaking, it would be alive. These are exactly the kinds of cases people are talking about with regard to late-term abortions - and exactly the cases a ban would affect.

_ · June 2009

prfctlefts wrote:

scb wrote:

ledvedderman wrote:

Do photos of dead soldiers have the same effect on you and make you anti-war?

Excellent question. I was just wondering if we would be justified in killing soldiers because they legally killed others in war. Or prison executioners. Or those people at animal control who put dogs and cats down because they don't have the resources to care for them. (I know, I know.... animals are less worthy of life than potential people. :roll: ) Or, if not justified, whether prfctlefts would at least feel sorry for them if they were gunned down while ushering at their churches.

m

:? :?

soulsinging · June 2009

know1 wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

Not to derail this thread back to the original topic, but I think it's noteworthy that this Doctor was shot while serving as an usher at his church.

What that says to me is that you can't paint those opposing abortion as automatically doing it for religious reasons. Obviously this guy was religious and his church had accepted him.

Things are not always as black and white as they seem.

I beg to differ. What this shows is that there is a split among Christian sects. Some more willing to accept what he does than others. But I don't know anyone that is for outlawing abortion, let alone to the extent that they will picket/become violent, that does not feel it is a moral issue based on their religious values. I have yet to meet a single vehemently pro-life person that is not also an evangelical/fundamentalist Christian.

How is that different that what I said? I was pointing out that people often assume that everyone religious opposes abortion, but here was a doctor at a fairly mainstream church who was accepted by the members of that church.

Ah, then I agree. I thought you were saying that nobody should assume this guy was religious. I think it's clear he was and I think it's also clear that 99.9% of the pro-life/no-legal-abortion movement is Christian in origin. But that does not necessarily mean that all Christians are thus, let alone that all Christians are whackjobs ready to knock off people that disagree with them.

cincybearcat · June 2009

dasvidana wrote:

I hope Pearl Jam performs Porch tomorrow in response to this.

That should stop the killings!!!!!

On a serious note, it's sad that anyone would kill somebody in this manner. And it's sad that they can justify it in their own minds.

It's also sad how many kids are killed each year, hell, each day in America from abortions.

Sad all around.

soulsinging · June 2009

prfctlefts wrote:

Excellent Question??? :roll: :roll: War and abortion ?? Don't you think you're comparing apples to oranges?? Um yeah Pictures of dead soldiers do bother me but you know what they have a choice to enlist there's no draft. Aborted babies don't have a choice.They don"t get a choice at life, See this where all you liberals confuse me . All of you scream about free speech and civil rights and most of you are against the death penalty,but when it comes to abortion screw em what rights.
There were people that went on record that worked for him saying that There were women getting late term abortions even if they weren't in any sort of physical harm. some did it cos having a baby would be an inconvenience for them. and as far as animals go if you care so much about them why dont you go adopt all the strays. or should we just say screw it and just let em roam the streets and keep mating,

Good question, if you care so much why don't YOU adopt all the unwanted babies in this country?

The difference lies quite simply in:
pro-life: the fetus is a live human being with rights
pro-choice: the fetus is not a separate human being with rights prior to birth

Thus why being against the death penatly and pro-choice is no more contradictory than being against abortion and pro-death penalty. They both make perfect sense in their own way.

decides2dream · June 2009

soulsinging wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Excellent Question??? :roll: :roll: War and abortion ?? Don't you think you're comparing apples to oranges?? Um yeah Pictures of dead soldiers do bother me but you know what they have a choice to enlist there's no draft. Aborted babies don't have a choice.They don"t get a choice at life, See this where all you liberals confuse me . All of you scream about free speech and civil rights and most of you are against the death penalty,but when it comes to abortion screw em what rights.
There were people that went on record that worked for him saying that There were women getting late term abortions even if they weren't in any sort of physical harm. some did it cos having a baby would be an inconvenience for them. and as far as animals go if you care so much about them why dont you go adopt all the strays. or should we just say screw it and just let em roam the streets and keep mating,

Good question, if you care so much why don't YOU adopt all the unwanted babies in this country?

The difference lies quite simply in:
pro-life: the fetus is a live human being with rights
pro-choice: the fetus is not a separate human being with rights prior to birth

Thus why being against the death penatly and pro-choice is no more contradictory than being against abortion and pro-death penalty. They both make perfect sense in their own way.

i also would like to see some documentation of this.
either way, it in NO way 'justifies' his murder, but this is a serious accusation, and i would like to know if it is true or not.....b/c if it was 'on record' why wasn't his license pulled?

and the whole abortion/war thing.....oversimplifying here and don't want to turn ithis anymore into THAt debate...but there are many, many people who do not consider a potential human life A human life, etc, etc....thus how we can 'justify' our liberal thoughts. thing of it is, right NOW, abortion, and late-term abortion ARE legal.....therefore while poeple may have their own personal beliefs, there is NO justification for trying to smear a doctor's professional career if he indeed was simply performing LEGAL medical procedures.

WaveCameCrashin · June 2009

scb wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

Induced labor: Medication is administered to the pregnant woman which triggers labor. The woman eventually gives birth to the partly developed fetus.
bullet

"D&E" (dilation and evacuation). The physician inserts a long toothed clamp through the woman's vagina into the uterus. She/he grabs body parts of the fetus at random, breaks them from the body and pulls them out. Finally, the head is crushed and extracted. Finally, the placenta and any remaining parts of the fetus are suctioned from the uterus. 1
bullet

"D&X" (dilation and extraction) The woman's cervix is dilated. If necessary, the fetus is rotated until it is facing feet downwards. The surgeon reaches into the uterus and pulls the fetus' body, with the exception of its head, out of the woman's body. Surgical scissors are inserted into the base of the fetal skull, and withdrawn. A suction tube is inserted and the fetus' brains are removed through aspiration. This partially collapses the fetal skull. The fetus is then fully removed from the woman's body.

Thanks for proving my point. 3rd-trimester babies aren't sucked out with vacuums.

suction tube and vacuum are technically the same thing what do you think do you think aspiration is scb ?

WaveCameCrashin · June 2009

hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.

soulsinging · June 2009

prfctlefts wrote:

hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.

Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.

As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.

WaveCameCrashin · June 2009

soulsinging wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

hey ss the last time I checked the fetus had a heart beat save your smart ass remarks for some one else.

Kinda like how you saved your smart ass remarks to scb about adopting cats and dogs for someone else? I love how brazen you are about your hypocrisy.

As to the heart beat, thank you for illustrating my point. You believe a fetus is a life with rights from conception. I don't. It takes more than a heart beat. A dog has one too... you're ok with putting a dog down.

It was a stupid comparison dogs and cats to aborted babies , you ask a dumb ass question you going to get a smart ass answer and how am I being a hypocrite.

Kansas abortion doctor shot and killed at church

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