Kansas abortion doctor shot and killed at church

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Comments

  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?
  • Anon
    Anon Posts: 11,175
    edited June 2009
    probably morals and ethics
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    it took 6 pages on an internet forum from 2 different people to get you to understand - now, imagine what it's like convincing the rest of america ...

    edit: this is not meant to be a slag to you - just simply that people have certain preconceived notions especially if they listen to pundits that share their "belief" system ... it doesn't take much to convince a pro-lifer that these late-term abortions are akin to baby-killing ...
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    it took 6 pages on an internet forum from 2 different people to get you to understand - now, imagine what it's like convincing the rest of america ...



    exactly.
    perhpas it's the stigma associated with 'killing babies' which seems that for far too many, that is ALL they see.......and not the reality of it all. how many doctors want to get shot down for doing their lawful job, in church no less? yea........that might be one explaination.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    Was that double-negative intended? If not,

    A. You might get murdered.
    B. You'll probably get harassed.
    C. It requires a special level of training that is very difficult to obtain.
    D. Malpractice costs are high.
    E. It's an emotionally difficult job (but somebody's got to do it).
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    it took 6 pages on an internet forum from 2 different people to get you to understand - now, imagine what it's like convincing the rest of america ...

    edit: this is not meant to be a slag to you - just simply that people have certain preconceived notions especially if they listen to pundits that share their "belief" system ... it doesn't take much to convince a pro-lifer that these late-term abortions are akin to baby-killing ...

    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    Was that double-negative intended? If not,

    A. You might get murdered.
    B. You'll probably get harassed.
    C. It requires a special level of training that is very difficult to obtain.
    D. Malpractice costs are high.
    E. It's an emotionally difficult job (but somebody's got to do it).

    thank you.


    a) thats very rare is it not?
    b) true. so what. so do professional athletes when they go to a opposing city. boo who
    c) I doubt that but if you say so
    d) I'll give ya that
    e) somebody doesn't have to do it
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions

    So women whose lives or health are in danger without the abortion should just be left to suffer and/or die? (By the way, if the woman dies, the baby will likely die too, so no one will have been saved.)
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    it took 6 pages on an internet forum from 2 different people to get you to understand - now, imagine what it's like convincing the rest of america ...

    edit: this is not meant to be a slag to you - just simply that people have certain preconceived notions especially if they listen to pundits that share their "belief" system ... it doesn't take much to convince a pro-lifer that these late-term abortions are akin to baby-killing ...

    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions

    so ... the woman should die?

    and i think d2d and scb answered your questions better than the way i tried to
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions

    So women whose lives or health are in danger without the abortion should just be left to suffer and/or die? (By the way, if the woman dies, the baby will likely die too, so no one will have been saved.)

    I'd be fine with this...

    (1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    Was that double-negative intended? If not,

    A. You might get murdered.
    B. You'll probably get harassed.
    C. It requires a special level of training that is very difficult to obtain.
    D. Malpractice costs are high.
    E. It's an emotionally difficult job (but somebody's got to do it).

    thank you.


    a) thats very rare is it not?
    b) true. so what. so do professional athletes when they go to a opposing city. boo who
    c) I doubt that but if you say so
    d) I'll give ya that
    e) somebody doesn't have to do it

    A. That depends on how you define rare. In the past 36 hours, 1/2 of the 3rd-trimester abortion providers in the country have been murdered. In the past 16 year, someone has been murdered every other year (on average) from violence against abortion providers. (That's not including the attempted murders.) There have been more before that, but I don't have stats readily handy right now.

    B. Are you fucking kidding me with that comparison? Before being murdered, Dr. Tiller was shot twice, his clinic was bombed, his clinic has been physically blocked, his patients and staff are harassed daily, his home and every place he does business has been picketed, he had to drive an armored vehicle, wear a bullet-proof vest, and have a baby guard.

    C. Well I guess you'll just have to trust that I know what I'm talking about. Or feel free to demonstrate how easy it is to get this training.

    E. If no one did it, many more women would die or suffer permanent injury/illness from pregnancy. I'm sure if you ever have a wife who's in this position, you'll be thanking the Lord that such providers exist.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:

    A. That depends on how you define rare. In the past 36 hours, 1/2 of the 3rd-trimester abortion providers in the country have been murdered. In the past 16 year, someone has been murdered every other year (on average) from violence against abortion providers. (That's not including the attempted murders.) There have been more before that, but I don't have stats readily handy right now.

    one a year on average? ok thats alot.

    scb wrote:
    B. Are you fucking kidding me with that comparison? Before being murdered, Dr. Tiller was shot twice, his clinic was bombed, his clinic has been physically blocked, his patients and staff are harassed daily, his home and every place he does business has been picketed, he had to drive an armored vehicle, wear a bullet-proof vest, and have a baby guard.

    well then you should define harassed.
    scb wrote:
    C. Well I guess you'll just have to trust that I know what I'm talking about. Or feel free to demonstrate how easy it is to get this training.

    E. If no one did it, many more women would die or suffer permanent injury/illness from pregnancy. I'm sure if you ever have a wife who's in this position, you'll be thanking the Lord that such providers exist.

    so say a woman was in immediate danger of dying, the emergency room Doctor could not perform the abortion to save the womans life? it would be nothing more then a Cesarean section would it not?
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions

    So women whose lives or health are in danger without the abortion should just be left to suffer and/or die? (By the way, if the woman dies, the baby will likely die too, so no one will have been saved.)

    I'd be fine with this...

    (1) The abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the pregnant woman

    Well then you're contradicting yourself, because you don't really want them to be banned.

    What about when the child is going to die anyway, cost the taxpayers millions in medical bills before it does, and its birth would prevent the woman from ever having a child in the future?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions?

    I dunno. Someone got shot for doing it yesterday. Their families are routinely targeted for violent harassment and threats by people that, like you, prefer ignoring reality and labeling them baby killers to actually bothering to understand what it is they are doing. It costs a fortune to maintain (see the arson perpetrated against his clinic over the years). Those are pretty strong reasons against doing it. It's a pretty dangerous and risky field.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:

    Well then you're contradicting yourself, because you don't really want them to be banned.

    but preservation of the womans life is not the only restriction.
    scb wrote:
    What about when the child is going to die anyway, cost the taxpayers millions in medical bills before it does, and its birth would prevent the woman from ever having a child in the future?

    going to die anyway? huh? a child isnt dead until its dead.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:

    A. That depends on how you define rare. In the past 36 hours, 1/2 of the 3rd-trimester abortion providers in the country have been murdered. In the past 16 year, someone has been murdered every other year (on average) from violence against abortion providers. (That's not including the attempted murders.) There have been more before that, but I don't have stats readily handy right now.

    one a year on average? ok thats alot.

    scb wrote:
    B. Are you fucking kidding me with that comparison? Before being murdered, Dr. Tiller was shot twice, his clinic was bombed, his clinic has been physically blocked, his patients and staff are harassed daily, his home and every place he does business has been picketed, he had to drive an armored vehicle, wear a bullet-proof vest, and have a baby guard.

    well then you should define harassed.
    scb wrote:
    C. Well I guess you'll just have to trust that I know what I'm talking about. Or feel free to demonstrate how easy it is to get this training.

    E. If no one did it, many more women would die or suffer permanent injury/illness from pregnancy. I'm sure if you ever have a wife who's in this position, you'll be thanking the Lord that such providers exist.

    so say a woman was in immediate danger of dying, the emergency room Doctor could not perform the abortion to save the womans life? it would be nothing more then a Cesarean section would it not?

    3rd-trimester abortions aren't done by cesarean section (as you have already pointed out in your post about how they are done). (Most docs aren't trained in c-section anyway.) I'm going to have a hard time trying to explain to you the medical complexities of this issue, but it is more complex than you realize.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    jlew24asu wrote:
    scb wrote:

    Well then you're contradicting yourself, because you don't really want them to be banned.

    but preservation of the womans life is not the only restriction.
    scb wrote:
    What about when the child is going to die anyway, cost the taxpayers millions in medical bills before it does, and its birth would prevent the woman from ever having a child in the future?

    going to die anyway? huh? a child isnt dead until its dead.

    Yes, but if, say, you can see in an ultrasound that the child's brian and spinal cord have grown outside of its body, you know it will not be capable of life for very long and the short life it may have will be costly and filled with suffering. Why would you want to go through with that?
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    polaris_x wrote:
    jlew24asu wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    it took 6 pages on an internet forum from 2 different people to get you to understand - now, imagine what it's like convincing the rest of america ...

    edit: this is not meant to be a slag to you - just simply that people have certain preconceived notions especially if they listen to pundits that share their "belief" system ... it doesn't take much to convince a pro-lifer that these late-term abortions are akin to baby-killing ...

    huh? I still dont think they should been performed. no one got me to understand shit. the only thing I learned was that you need a reason to have an abortion. so what? I still believe late term abortions should be banned. and I'm pro-choice. go figure.

    regardless, my original question was still not answered.

    why is it that so few doctors are not willing to perform late term abortions

    so ... the woman should die?



    seriously....
    if nothing else, you'd think there might be some *understanding* that the reason for such a late- term abortion is life-threatening to the woman. aparently not a very good *reason* for it. :? still under the delusion perhaps that a woman just undergoes it simply b/c she 'changed her mind'....and some doctor agrees to it.

    funny too, the threat of possible harassment and/or death, or at least death threats.....that's just so *rare* that more and more doctors should willingly undergo such treatment.
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:
    3rd-trimester abortions aren't done by cesarean section (as you have already pointed out in your post about how they are done). (Most docs aren't trained in c-section anyway.) I'm going to have a hard time trying to explain to you the medical complexities of this issue, but it is more complex than you realize.

    forgive the source but I found this....

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_late1.htm

    Third trimester abortions:

    The physician is faced with two main alternatives at this late point in pregnancy:

    A hysterotomy, which is similar to a Cesarean section. The woman is given a local anesthetic. A cut is made into her abdomen which extends into the uterus. The fetus is removed. The placenta is then removed. Finally, the incision is stitched.

    I don't doubt its a complicated procedure, but emergency room doctors do some amazing shit
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    scb wrote:

    Yes, but if, say, you can see in an ultrasound that the child's brian and spinal cord have grown outside of its body, you know it will not be capable of life for very long and the short life it may have will be costly and filled with suffering. Why would you want to go through with that?

    if the brain or spinal cord have grown outside the body, I would consider that already dead no?

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