Boston Red Sox

On an unrelated note, why are the Seattle Mariners the worst team in baseball, EXCEPT when facing the Sox? What a joke. Speaking as a Sox fan, they get paid too much to lose 8-0 to Seattle.

I'd worry about all the Yanks fans in this thread gloating, except that Kansas City took you out. We are all in the same boat of suck.

Ok, enough poking each other in the eye. What's the word on the Manny/Youkilis scrap up there. Initial reports were that Youkilis got on manny and Colon for lolligagging their way to the brawl. But then I heard today that manny was fed up with youkilis throwing tantrums after bad at bats

Solat13 wrote:

Well, that part of the story depends on your view. The Red Sox reporter covering the story said Ortiz pulled Sturtze off Kapler as Sturtze was choking Kapler from behind and then Kapler and Nixon beat on Sturtze. The Yankees claimed that Ortiz threw a punch and missed Sturtze before pulling Sturtze off Kapler. Major League baseball agreed more with the Red Sox side and Ortiz was only fined $500 for his part in that fight. So I don't think he "Kimbo'd" anyone in that fight.

I was kidding about Ortiz...the point was that "fight" is obnoxiously overblown as some key turning point in the season (hence its placement on that stupid book with Stephen King and Stuart O'Nan), when it could be argued that it would take another 3 weeks until the 2004 team actually got going. Sure they beat the Yankees, but they had done so enough that season and the one before.

ryan198 wrote:

I was kidding about Ortiz...the point was that "fight" is obnoxiously overblown as some key turning point in the season (hence its placement on that stupid book with Stephen King and Stuart O'Nan), when it could be argued that it would take another 3 weeks until the 2004 team actually got going. Sure they beat the Yankees, but they had done so enough that season and the one before.

The reason that it's listed as the turning point, it's the first time Rivera had blown a save for the Yankees to lose against the Red Sox since April 13, 2002. That was so long ago that Rickey Henderson was still batting leadoff for the Red Sox that game and Ugie Urbina saved the game before being imprisoned for attacking 5 men with a machete in Venezuela.

Going into the day of the fight, the Red Sox were 9.5 games out against the Yankees and had lost 4 in a row to the Yanks - 3 of which were saved by Rivera. After that game, the Sox no longer saw Rivera as the unbeatable pitcher that had plagued them over the years. Rivera blew another save later that year in September and we know what happened in October and then he blew a couple more to start 2005. That game changed the mindset of the team who thought it was just going to be another inevitable year of playoff futility. I remember watching that game with Nothingman44 who was visiting from Providence and we always talk about that game as the game that first gave the fans hope that 2004 was a year that something special was going to happen.

Solat13 wrote:

The reason that it's listed as the turning point, it's the first time Rivera had blown a save for the Yankees to lose against the Red Sox since April 13, 2002. That was so long ago that Rickey Henderson was still batting leadoff for the Red Sox that game and Ugie Urbina saved the game before being imprisoned for attacking 5 men with a machete in Venezuela.

Going into the day of the fight, the Red Sox were 9.5 games out against the Yankees and had lost 4 in a row to the Yanks - 3 of which were saved by Rivera. After that game, the Sox no longer saw Rivera as the unbeatable pitcher that had plagued them over the years. Rivera blew another save later that year in September and we know what happened in October and then he blew a couple more to start 2005. That game changed the mindset of the team who thought it was just going to be another inevitable year of playoff futility. I remember watching that game with Nothingman44 who was visiting from Providence and we always talk about that game as the game that first gave the fans hope that 2004 was a year that something special was going to happen.

That's fine if you argue it changed a mindset against a team...which to me is still a little thin of an argument when you consider the Sox were within 5 outs of defeating them, and had played with them most of the year...but fine I'll give that to you.

What I'm saying is that it is overblown as a "turnaround" game for the Red Sox when it was clearly not. Following that game the Sox would go 11-8, hardly a hot streak. From that point on however, they would only lose one series (Yankees), and split one series for the rest of the year (Orioles). The actual turnaround was when they got rid of Nomar, and then got used to each other. However, Theo Epstein on the front cover trading Nomar and a minor leaguer, for O-Cab, Mientkewicz, and D-Roberts, isn't as compelling to the Boston market as Veritek popping A-Rod in the face with a glove. Plus it doesn't make as fun a legend as the idea that the Red Sox completely turned it around when A-Rod got hit in the face by the Red Sox "tough as nails" catcher.

ryan198 wrote:

That's fine if you argue it changed a mindset against a team...which to me is still a little thin of an argument when you consider the Sox were within 5 outs of defeating them, and had played with them most of the year...but fine I'll give that to you.

What I'm saying is that it is overblown as a "turnaround" game for the Red Sox when it was clearly not. Following that game the Sox would go 11-8, hardly a hot streak. From that point on however, they would only lose one series (Yankees), and split one series for the rest of the year (Orioles). The actual turnaround was when they got rid of Nomar, and then got used to each other. However, Theo Epstein on the front cover trading Nomar and a minor leaguer, for O-Cab, Mientkewicz, and D-Roberts, isn't as compelling to the Boston market as Veritek popping A-Rod in the face with a glove. Plus it doesn't make as fun a legend as the idea that the Red Sox completely turned it around when A-Rod got hit in the face by the Red Sox "tough as nails" catcher.

Stephen King and Stuart O'Nan are fans. The book was written for the fans. It's not a statistical analysis or an in depth look at the season. It's like saying that Bill Simmons' book should be taken seriously as an analysis of the season. The book was written for fun and many of the fans of the Red Sox believe that game was the turning point for the team.

Besides Dave Roberts was not part of the Nomar deal. It was a separate trade with the Dodgers for Henri Staley who never made the majors.

And it did change the mindset of the team. The three Yankees games before the fight - the Yankees rallied for a win in the 8th, Captain Jeets dives into the crowd to catch a foul ball in an extra inning game when Nomar tells Francona that he can't pinch hit in a big situation and the day before, Foulke blows a game and in all three Rivera had a big role. Beating Rivera that game changed the mindset for the team that hadn't beaten him in a year and a half.

Solat13 wrote:

Stephen King and Stuart O'Nan are fans. The book was written for the fans. It's not a statistical analysis or an in depth look at the season. It's like saying that Bill Simmons' book should be taken seriously as an analysis of the season. The book was written for fun and many of the fans of the Red Sox believe that game was the turning point for the team.

Besides Dave Roberts was not part of the Nomar deal. It was a separate trade with the Dodgers for Henri Staley who never made the majors.

And it did change the mindset of the team. The three Yankees games before the fight - the Yankees rallied for a win in the 8th, Captain Jeets dives into the crowd to catch a foul ball in an extra inning game when Nomar tells Francona that he can't pinch hit in a big situation and the day before, Foulke blows a game and in all three Rivera had a big role. Beating Rivera that game changed the mindset for the team that hadn't beaten him in a year and a half.

I said Nomar AND a minor leaguer (forgot his name), plus cash if you want to get super technical, for those three. Like I said, it may/could have been a mindset changing game, but the trades, which were massively unpopular with the fans, were a bigger deal. I distinctly remember my buddy, a very knowledgable and, like you SOLAT, deep thinking Sox fan calling me when I was in a wal-mart with a voice that sounded like he lost a family member. I'm not sure you reaction, but even my g/f's (now wife's) fam was deeply disturbed by it.

BUT for once in my life I was right. I told them O-Cab was a real nice addition at short, not to mention a forgotten clutch hitter (see: the Expos whenever Vladdy went down), and that Mientk(whatever) would help the D, but then Cabrera made a bad error in like his 2nd or 3rd game and they all called crying again. I won't take any credit for talking up Roberts, but, in Red Sox lore, he turned out to be as important, if not more so, than punching A-Rod's face.

As for the books, they are fun books, but they do play a huge part in remembering the past. I'd venture to say that Simmons and the O'Nan/King book will be read by a hell of a lot more peeps than my dissertation will be - or even the Red Sox Century Book (which is fantastic btw). So I would argue that they do "matter" to a lot of people. Again, maybe not you, but a bunch of the peeps I interviewed often sighted those as "must reads" when doing my research.

No Code...I love your tag about Hank, but don't your Sawx have a street named after an owner who went through life fat, drunk, and stupid? Some people have all the luck .

NOCODE#1 wrote:

yea the suspensions didnt affect it at all:rolleyes: can we get a real fan in here?

what a douche.
unrelated
oh an tampa is dead......

None of the suspensions took effect on that day. So, yeah ... Excuse the shit out of me for having standards.