Harper unmoved by polls, remains firm on Mideast crisis, softwood

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  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    polaris wrote:
    well ... you will project your own perceptions of me so i really can't help you there ...

    but the reality is that the UN has failed miserably here ... the killing has gone on for a month - the current makeup of the security council is flawed because the single biggest defiant country in the UN runs the whole thing ...

    so ... adopting a UN stance really does nothing for me ... i do not want another person to die ...

    and just as you consider my hatred irrational i see your continued support the same ... i've asked before - how has harper's decision been not in step with the american stance?? ... they are side by each in every instance so, i know its easy for you to claim a blind hatred but the facts have always been in front of us ...
    Sorry if I've projected perceptions on to you. But what stance do you want Canada to take? You didn't want a pro-Israel stance (I can understand that), you don't want a pro-UN stance, you don't want any stance that coincides with the American stance, so what stance do you want Canada to take. The stance of not wanting another [person to die is no stance. How do you propose this be done?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    Sorry if I've projected perceptions on to you. But what stance do you want Canada to take? You didn't want a pro-Israel stance (I can understand that), you don't want a pro-UN stance, you don't want any stance that coincides with the American stance, so what stance do you want Canada to take. The stance of not wanting another [person to die is no stance. How do you propose this be done?

    immediate ceasefire period. if i was leader i would call for the immediate ending of all offensive missions by hezbollah and israel ... the opening up of ports and roads so aid can get to the people who are suffering ... that is what i would be pushing ...

    i would send in members of the arab league, security council and israel to negotiate a plan moving forward ... but first and foremost - there must be a ceasefire ... israel's goal of seeking and destroying hezbollah is not working nor will it ever ...
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    polaris wrote:
    immediate ceasefire period. if i was leader i would call for the immediate ending of all offensive missions by hezbollah and israel ... the opening up of ports and roads so aid can get to the people who are suffering ... that is what i would be pushing ...

    i would send in members of the arab league, security council and israel to negotiate a plan moving forward ... but first and foremost - there must be a ceasefire ... israel's goal of seeking and destroying hezbollah is not working nor will it ever ...
    So your plan is to do nothing about Hezbollah. France loves you.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    So your plan is to do nothing about Hezbollah. France loves you.

    well ... my plan would be similar to the one proposed by lebanon which calls for a disbanding of hezbollah and integration into the lebanese army ...
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    polaris wrote:
    well ... my plan would be similar to the one proposed by lebanon which calls for a disbanding of hezbollah and integration into the lebanese army ...
    Why hasn't Lebanon already done this? Isn't this a little like having the German army integrate nazis and members of the SS into their army after ww2?

    But full props for putting a proposal together, even if I don't agree with it in detail.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • thankyougrandma
    thankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    surferdude wrote:
    So your plan is to do nothing about Hezbollah. France loves you.

    that's not true... France (Lebanese) solution will do better to disarm Hezbollah than anything Israel tried so far, remember they've occupied this country for a long time and Hezbollah still exist, also must understand that civil war is a menace in Lebanon, they must pay attention to this and act accordingly.

    At least the Lebanese govt. is still standing strong and the civil war is so far not in the picture, kudos to the Lebanese govt., UN must listen to what Lebanon have to say, and to what Lebanon want, not only what Israel want.

    Killing Lebanese, destroying Lebanon and refusing to secure humanitarian help will just give wings to the Hezbollah in the whole Arab world, that's not a secret...
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    thankyougrandma wrote:
    that's not true... France solution will do better to disarm Hezbollah than anything Israel tried so far, remember they've occupied this country for a long time and Hezbollah still exist, also must understand that civil war is a menace in Lebanon, they must pay attention to this and act accordingly.

    At least the Lebanese govt. is still standing strong and the civil war is so far not in the picture, kudos to the Lebanese govt., UN must listen to what Lebanon have to say, and to what Lebanon want, not only what Israel want.

    Killing Lebanese, destroying Lebanon and refusing to secure humanitarian help will just give wings to the Hezbollah in the whole Arab world, that's not a secret...
    France just kind of changed it's mind. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. They no longer want any international presence in Lebanon to help deal with Hezbollah.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    polaris wrote:
    replace quebec with alberta and that's pretty sums it up for me ...

    And this sort of stuff doesn't do much for people's attitudes about Ontario, here in the West. I can see where Quebec is coming from much of the time, actually. Condescending, we-know-best, everyone-else-is-backward attitudes from people in Ontario are what fuel people's views out here.
    tolerance is such a Canadian myth.
  • thankyougrandma
    thankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    surferdude wrote:
    France just kind of changed it's mind. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. They no longer want any international presence in Lebanon to help deal with Hezbollah.

    We'll see the final draft of the resolution. I think they want to participate in the Lebanese plan, which involve Lebanese troops supported by the international community, including withdraw of Israeli troops of Lebanon. Which can be twisted as pro-terrorist anti-israel pro-hezbollah, but i don't buy into that, solution for the region (including Palestine) is what they seek, just the means to achieve this seem to be the cause of disagreement.

    Israel govt. and their supporters support the heavy military solution (which cause all the damages we've seen so far, in Israel and Lebanon).

    Lebanese govt. and their supporters prone to disarm of Hezbollah without fighting them, by giving them no reason to fight or exist anymore. (which is seen as pro-terrorist, pro Hezbollah, anti Israel, but i don't give a shit about those labels, already been painted as a terrorist by the Post, i guess i'm monitered by the SCRS as of now, hehe)
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    reborncareerist wrote:
    And this sort of stuff doesn't do much for people's attitudes about Ontario, here in the West. I can see where Quebec is coming from much of the time, actually. Condescending, we-know-best, everyone-else-is-backward attitudes from people in Ontario are what fuel people's views out here.
    tolerance is such a Canadian myth.
    I can understand polaris' frustration if it is fueled by environmental concerns. But provinces only do what the federal government allows.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • shiraz
    shiraz Posts: 528
    polaris wrote:
    well ... my plan would be similar to the one proposed by lebanon which calls for a disbanding of hezbollah and integration into the lebanese army ...

    So that way Hizbullah will act as Lebanon official army so their future terror actions will considered to be legitimate. You have to understand Israel is one of the ways Hizbullah wants to achieve its real goal - bring the Shi'ite Muslims into the lead of Lebanon no matter what. Hezbollah's integration is just another step closer for the final destination. So far, Israel got them the most important thing - a massive support from the Lebanese people.They couldn't have got it in any other way but the attack on Israel - they knew our "recruit" new govt wouldn't sit quietly after this kind of provocation. Hizbullah said in several occasions they are planing to kill all the Lebanese polititions who are opposing them now (like they did with prime minister Hariri). They also mentioned they would do the same in one way or another to foreign arab polititions (from Jordan, Eygpt etc').

    So no, I think it's a bad idea. And one more thing - Lebanon was supposed to get the help of international community in order to disarm the Hizbullah nearly 6 years ago. It didn't happen, so basically now it's time to implement this idea (along side with the real Lebanese army).
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    thankyougrandma wrote:
    We'll see the final draft of the resolution. I think they want to participate in the Lebanese plan, which involve Lebanese troops supported by the international community, including withdraw of Israeli troops of Lebanon. Which can be twisted as pro-terrorist anti-israel pro-hezbollah, but i don't buy into that, solution for the region (including Palestine) is what they seek, just the means to achieve this seem to be the cause of disagreement, Israel and their supporters support the heavy military solution (which cause all the damages we've seen so far, in Israel and Lebanon). Lebanese govt. and their supporters prone to disarm of Hezbollah without fighting them, by giving them no reason to fight or exist anymore. (which is seen as pro-terrorist, pro Hezbollah, anti Israel, but i don't give a shit about those labels, already been painted as a terrorist by the Post, i guess i'm monitered by the SCRS as of now, hehe)
    In truth I think any solution is going to take a hundred years or more. There is too much mistrust and hatred for an immediate and effective peace plan. I'd like to see a plan that is realistic in scope and deliverables. One that addresses needs on all sides by ensuring that those needs change over the course of time to make a long lasting agreement attainable. These mickey nouse agreements that last 2 day or two months do nothing for the long term peace in the middle east.

    Things I'm thankful today include that this has been an educational and respectful discourse.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • thankyougrandma
    thankyougrandma Posts: 1,182
    shiraz wrote:
    So that way Hizbullah will act as Lebanon official army so their future terror actions will considered to be legitimate. You have to understand Israel is one of the ways Hizbullah wants to achieve its real goal - bring the Shi'ite Muslims into the lead of Lebanon no matter what. Hezbollah's integration is just another step closer for the final destination. So far, Israel got them the most important thing - a massive support from the Lebanese people.They couldn't have got it in any other way but the attack on Israel - they knew our "recruit" new govt wouldn't sit quietly after this kind of provocation. Hizbullah said in several occasions they are planing to kill all the Lebanese polititions who are opposing them now (like they did with prime minister Hariri). They also mentioned they would do the same in one way or another to foreign arab polititions (from Jordan, Eygpt etc').

    Sorry Shiraz, i don't believe that everyone who currently support Hezbollah are supporting the wiping off Israel thing, or the Lebanese politicians killing, right now they're supporting an army of resistance more than the terrorist group, not saying it's ok, but it seem to be what's happening.
    shiraz wrote:
    So no, I think it's a bad idea. And one more thing - Lebanon was supposed to get the help of international community in order to disarm the Hizbullah nearly 6 years ago. It didn't happen, so basically now it's time to implement this idea (along side with the real Lebanese army).

    Agree 100% on that one, we might disagree on how it should be done, but it MUST be done. People should just stop to see things in pro-terrorist and anti-israel ways or pro-Israel anti-arab way. Everyone involved seek for the resolution of the conflict, nothing else. (my opinion)
    "L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
    -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    surferdude wrote:
    Why hasn't Lebanon already done this? Isn't this a little like having the German army integrate nazis and members of the SS into their army after ww2?

    But full props for putting a proposal together, even if I don't agree with it in detail.

    well ... if the cia can integrate nazis why not lebanon? ... at the end of the day it is about holding the elected officials accountable ... right now hezbollah is not suffering ... the lebanese people are ...
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    reborncareerist wrote:
    And this sort of stuff doesn't do much for people's attitudes about Ontario, here in the West. I can see where Quebec is coming from much of the time, actually. Condescending, we-know-best, everyone-else-is-backward attitudes from people in Ontario are what fuel people's views out here.
    tolerance is such a Canadian myth.

    is there any other province that votes ONE way? ... your entire province voted for the party and is the reason why its heading a minority ... not even quebec all votes BQ ... but of the larger provinces - its like the only one that votes a single party ...

    but if you bothered to read what i responded to i don't see why you don't gripe to surferdude cause he wrote the exact same thing about quebec ... but the reality is alberta does not share similar views to the rest of the country ... that may sound condescending to you but there is truth to it ...
  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    shiraz wrote:
    So that way Hizbullah will act as Lebanon official army so their future terror actions will considered to be legitimate. You have to understand Israel is one of the ways Hizbullah wants to achieve its real goal - bring the Shi'ite Muslims into the lead of Lebanon no matter what. Hezbollah's integration is just another step closer for the final destination. So far, Israel got them the most important thing - a massive support from the Lebanese people.They couldn't have got it in any other way but the attack on Israel - they knew our "recruit" new govt wouldn't sit quietly after this kind of provocation. Hizbullah said in several occasions they are planing to kill all the Lebanese polititions who are opposing them now (like they did with prime minister Hariri). They also mentioned they would do the same in one way or another to foreign arab polititions (from Jordan, Eygpt etc').

    So no, I think it's a bad idea. And one more thing - Lebanon was supposed to get the help of international community in order to disarm the Hizbullah nearly 6 years ago. It didn't happen, so basically now it's time to implement this idea (along side with the real Lebanese army).

    like i said - its about holding the people accountable ... you cannot destory the lives of a peoples that have no say ... whatever the failures of the int'l community - this is the best option to me ...

    if the lebanese elect people who want war - then they will get war ... but right now - they have not voted for this ... they voted to boot syria out ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    thankyougrandma wrote:
    United nations problems are coming out of the UN security council, not peacekeeping forces.

    You should also get your facts straight, Lebanon was suppose to get Hezbollah disarm with the help of international community, didn't happen, now it's time to do it...
    The international community includes the UN. The UN problems is that it is full of corruption and the bottom line is if UN peace keeping is so effective, they sure have a a lot of people fooled. The only people that should be peacekeeping bettween Isreal and Hezbollah/Lebanon are countries from the region.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • shiraz
    shiraz Posts: 528
    thankyougrandma wrote:
    Sorry Shiraz, i don't believe that everyone who currently support Hezbollah are supporting the wiping off Israel thing, or the Lebanese politicians killing, right now they're supporting an army of resistance more than the terrorist group, not saying it's ok, but it seem to be what's happening.


    I didn't talk about the people, I'm talking about the future of the area based on Hizbullah's actions in the past - They said more than once their real goal is to get the Shi'ite Muslims into the lead in Lebanon, they built their own country inside Lebanon with its own social & med services, they took over Lebanon's parlament after Syria took care for prime minister Hariri's murder, they draged the whole country for a war they knew will happen, they promised in public more than once they plan to kill more Lebanese politicians who are opposing them, so what's next? The world has to think about it as well, because if Hizbullah get even greater power than what they have now, the future of the whole area will be in danger.

    I think there should be a cease-fire in the same time the Int forces & Lebanon's official army will replace the IDF and get weakened Hizbullah under their control. I also think the cease-fire agreement should include prisoners exchange. All the rest of the demands should be discussed only by Israel & the Lebanese govt later on.

    In the meantime the UN keeps playing with my life, I can't understand why the hell they don't want to bring the Int forces now - Lebanon has no problem with that, Israel has no problem with that so who does, Hizbullah? So untill the UN stop being so impotent, the war will escalate and I'll have less chances for having my life back. So, remind me again why you guys don't want Canada to support the Int forces idea?
  • shiraz
    shiraz Posts: 528
    polaris wrote:
    like i said - its about holding the people accountable ... you cannot destory the lives of a peoples that have no say ... whatever the failures of the int'l community - this is the best option to me ...

    if the lebanese elect people who want war - then they will get war ... but right now - they have not voted for this ... they voted to boot syria out ...

    Oh no, this is not another Iraq. I don't care about Lebanon's politics unless it effects the future of mid-east, where I live. Hizbullah will keep on trying to get weapons and use Israel (and Lebanon and god knows who else) as an excuse for their goals. I don't care if they will be in the lead, I worry about their way to get there - manipulations, provocations & massive violence.
  • shiraz
    shiraz Posts: 528
    beemster wrote:
    The international community includes the UN. The UN problems is that it is full of corruption and the bottom line is if UN peace keeping is so effective, they sure have a a lot of people fooled. The only people that should be peacekeeping bettween Isreal and Hezbollah/Lebanon are countries from the region.

    The problem is - the countries from the region (beside Iran & Syria - Israel's wonderfull "friends") want to stay out of it. I also think the UN is a joke when it comes to deal with hostile situations, but what other real choice do we have? Though they kept bringing me down, I gotta trust them on that one.

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