At what stage does abortion become murder?

So Cruel · July 2006

IWillLiveForeve wrote:

Dude, it was an open mike. That fucker doesn't have the ability, nor does his staff, to manipulate an 'accidental' situation. He sounded like a man that doesn't understand a situation, states a solution after looking at a problem for 2 minutes, and doesn't understand why it isn't easy. Remember, this no talent ass clown actually lost money running a MLB team. YOU HAVE TO BE FUCKING RETARDED TO LOSE MONEY OWNING A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM. THEY ARE EXEMPT FROM THE SHERMAN ACT. THIS MEANS THEY FUNCTION OUTSIDE THE US ANTI-MONOPOLY LAWS. SERIOUSLY, GEORGE W. BUSH DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE SUCCESS ON HIS RESUME. FIND ONE, AND I WILL DIGRESS.

He does not have one single success on his resume? Are you insane? He became the President of the USA! He was a respected governor of one of the biggest states in the country. But i guess you've enjoyed so much more success than Mr.Bush.

danmac · July 2006

angelica wrote:

Very interesting. So because this new life would be in my body, even though it possesses it's very own DNA, completely separate from me, you think the life is my own? Do you mean because it's in my "possession"? Or because it happens to be inside my body instead of outside of it? It sounds like you are saying because it is dependant upon me for survival that it is therefore my life, even though it is an entirely unique person unto itself. I'd like to hear some other opinions from others out there.

So you are saying that when it comes to deciding what is "right" or "wrong" for the individual, in making an important life decision such as this that it's not about ethics or about morals? I wonder, then, what you think ethical/moral decisions are about.

you need to conduct a survey of women who have had abortions and ask them to list, in order, the reasons they thought of before commencing with removal of the small ball of fluid and chemicals from their womb.

Economic, emotional, convenience, readiness, would all in likely top that list.

I doubt many tears were wasted over the imposed by others morality.

"Is it right to bring a child into this world even though im broke, 16, already with 2 kids, ones sick, no medicare, and the landlord is bringing the bailiffs around tomorrow morning to evict me?"

No, i don't see how a certain section of a specific society's morals would come into play for that poor girl.

soulsinging · July 2006

you're not a human being until you're in my phone book.

comebackwoman · July 2006

danmac wrote:

That life is your own, in a not so roundabout way. Without you, it could not survive. Without it, you are alive and well.

It's not about being morally sound. When a woman chooses to abort a foetus, she does so after weighing up the balance of what life would be like for that child. A small percentage of abortions are for 'convenience' purposes, the majority are due to economic. I see the far right attacks upon abortion as nothing more than an attack on the poor of America. Look at the percentages of how many abortions are taken by afro-american women, compared to white. Working class to middle class, etc.

Ethichs don't come into it at all. If a woman decides she cannot provide for a child in the manner she would like to, which would be detrimental to that child's life, then she decides against bringing that childinto the world. And that choice should be hers, and hers alone.

Agreed. I am pro-choice, but I think it will be a beautiful day when unwanted pregnancies no longer happen and no woman is in the position of having to make the decision to have an abortion (a decision that few find easy).

The crazy thing is that many of the people who oppose abortion actually create a greater need for them. They deny accurate sex education in schools - the sexually active are clueless about how to protect themselves and prevent pregnancy. All of this abstinence only bullshit is not working. I work with college students and the other day one of them actually asked me how many times she needed to have sex before she could pregnant. She had no clue. In NJ (in other states too, I'm sure), the Repubs passed a law a few years ago, cutting off public assistance to women who had additional children. Guess what? The abortion rate went through the roof. It does appear to be a war on the poor. Let's give them the info, resources and access to supplies they deserve.

I also agree that as long as something needs my body to survive, then I am in control of what happens to it. Once it leaves my body, it's no longer my decision. Go ahead and remove the cells from my body, harvest them in a test tube and adopt them. You don't get to tell me that I have to utilize my body to aid in the development, however.

thankyougrandma · July 2006

danmac wrote:

So a sperm swimming, fighting its way to the egg, is not 'alive', is not 'life'?

Its all about the bending of degrees. The argument against abortion, i mean.

If we accept sperm is life, the start of life, then today, well last night actually, i was a mass murderer, responsible for the detahs of millinos of, not children, but little lives, pre-foetuses, whatever you want to call them.

Call the UN, get a resolution passed, get my house invaded. I'm a genocidal maniac.

, i know it's not suppose to be a funny thread, but that was funny...

comebackwoman · July 2006

soulsinging wrote:

you're not a human being until you're in my phone book.

lol - is Bush in there?

know1 · July 2006

know1 wrote:

But if we're unsure of the point of the genesis of life, shouldn't we err on the side of NOT MURDERING? I guess that just seems like common sense to me and nobody else.

The war arguments go both ways. At what point do people who oppose the war and are pro-abortion start having equal respect for the life of children all over the globe?

The only consistent answer is to be against war and against abortion.

Anybody?? Hellooooo!

comebackwoman · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Anybody?? Hellooooo!

I close my eyes and wait for the dream - a world where war is no longer waged and unwanted pregnancies no longer happen so that women don't have to make the difficult decision of abortion.

thankyougrandma · July 2006

know1 wrote:

Anybody?? Hellooooo!

Abortion is way more personnal than a war, i think there's a difference and i think that's why it is pro-choice and not pro-abortion. I think abortion is wrong, but i think making it illegal is more wrong (if that's possible). The solution need to be in reducing the number of abortion and then making it less an option, that will take times i guess, and please don't ask me how, peoples are paid to know how, not me

angelica · July 2006

danmac wrote:

you need to conduct a survey of women who have had abortions and ask them to list, in order, the reasons they thought of before commencing with removal of the small ball of fluid and chemicals from their womb.

I have done research into particular female case studies if this is what you are referring to.

I doubt many tears were wasted over the imposed by others morality.

you "doubt"? You mean you are talking about something you have not educated yourself on?

What I am talking about is while people are making decisions that enable them to pay their bills, to keep their jobs, etc, sometimes the same decisions are eroding the person's inner emotional and spiritual world. This is because people are not aware of the profound moral and ethical impact such decisions can have on an individual. If you can, try to image how these women feel:

"I remember the beginning of emotional trauma I went through. Many nights were spent in the dark, writing poetry by candlelight, listening to soft music, crying hysterically. I'd wake up in the morning with puffy, burning, red eyes, I could barely open them. Many days I didn't even want to get out of bed, some days I didn't. Not a day went by for the two years that I didn't want to kill myself, I would drive around the outskirts of the city, crying my eyes out and wishing someone would come into my lane to take me out of my misery."

"I was numb through all of the planning for the abortion and through the whole procedure itself, but as soon as it was over, I felt the world crash down around me and my heart deflate, and I started hyperventilating. I went to sleep for the rest of that day, and was hysterical the next day. To make it worse, I felt like nobody would understand my pain and that I wouldn't find any support because of the stigma involved in having an abortion"

"...I was suicidal..."

"I spent so many nights just crying and crying and feeling like I must be the only woman in the world who felt this way about her abortion. I couldn't move on with my life. I was stuck in a deep rut of depression with no way out."

"Most of the time I've embraced the pain-feeling that I deserved it as my punishment for what I did. Honestly, I still feel that way deep inside my heart and soul."

"I was diagnosed "PTSD" 2 days ago, the trauma being an abortion just over 2 years ago. All of the symptoms of PTSD fit me, but I wondered, like all of us, am I the only one?"

"I suffered through my pain in silence for more than six years, all the while thinking something was mentally wrong with me for being unable to forget the past."

"There are thousands of women struggling through this same darkness. I now know my pain, my inability to find peace, even my initial refusal to acknowledge the emptiness in my life are all signs of a deep trauma, not signs of me losing my mind....Of course the pain is still there, but it isn't quite as crippling as it once was. "

"after all these years of trying to heal, find the answer, and forgive myself.....I now understand that my pain is shared by many others"

"I never imagined the pain would be like this. My heart is truly broke. It's only been a few days and I feel very alone"

"It's always been a struggle from day one to rid myself of the guilt and sadness that accompanied this 'choice' which I am grateful I had, however unbearable to live with. I was not educated at all regarding post partum or the feelings that would follow after the 15minute procedure, probably for the rest of my life. I had counseling several months after my abortion, only after I made some thoughtless decisions in my life."

These are testimonials from numerous women from the neutral, supportive post-abortion site: afterabortion.com.

"Is it right to bring a child into this world even though im broke, 16, already with 2 kids, ones sick, no medicare, and the landlord is bringing the bailiffs around tomorrow morning to evict me?"

I don't know. What I do know is that each woman, when making such an important decision owes it to herself to consider the far-reaching ramifications of her choice. For her own well-being in the long-term.

No, i don't see how a certain section of a specific society's morals would come into play for that poor girl.

You don't? I'm willing to bet it's because you have not looked deeply enough into the matter.

comebackwoman · July 2006

angelica wrote:

I have done research into particular female case studies if this is what you are referring to.
you "doubt"? You mean you are talking about something you have not educated yourself on?

What I am talking about is while people are making decisions that enable them to pay their bills, to keep their jobs, etc, sometimes the same decisions are eroding the person's inner emotional and spiritual world. This is because people are not aware of the profound moral and ethical impact such decisions can have on an individual. If you can, try to image how these women feel:

"I remember the beginning of emotional trauma I went through. Many nights were spent in the dark, writing poetry by candlelight, listening to soft music, crying hysterically. I'd wake up in the morning with puffy, burning, red eyes, I could barely open them. Many days I didn't even want to get out of bed, some days I didn't. Not a day went by for the two years that I didn't want to kill myself, I would drive around the outskirts of the city, crying my eyes out and wishing someone would come into my lane to take me out of my misery."

"I was numb through all of the planning for the abortion and through the whole procedure itself, but as soon as it was over, I felt the world crash down around me and my heart deflate, and I started hyperventilating. I went to sleep for the rest of that day, and was hysterical the next day. To make it worse, I felt like nobody would understand my pain and that I wouldn't find any support because of the stigma involved in having an abortion"

"...I was suicidal..."

"I spent so many nights just crying and crying and feeling like I must be the only woman in the world who felt this way about her abortion. I couldn't move on with my life. I was stuck in a deep rut of depression with no way out."

"Most of the time I've embraced the pain-feeling that I deserved it as my punishment for what I did. Honestly, I still feel that way deep inside my heart and soul."

"I was diagnosed "PTSD" 2 days ago, the trauma being an abortion just over 2 years ago. All of the symptoms of PTSD fit me, but I wondered, like all of us, am I the only one?"

"I suffered through my pain in silence for more than six years, all the while thinking something was mentally wrong with me for being unable to forget the past."

"There are thousands of women struggling through this same darkness. I now know my pain, my inability to find peace, even my initial refusal to acknowledge the emptiness in my life are all signs of a deep trauma, not signs of me losing my mind....Of course the pain is still there, but it isn't quite as crippling as it once was. "

"after all these years of trying to heal, find the answer, and forgive myself.....I now understand that my pain is shared by many others"

"I never imagined the pain would be like this. My heart is truly broke. It's only been a few days and I feel very alone"

"It's always been a struggle from day one to rid myself of the guilt and sadness that accompanied this 'choice' which I am grateful I had, however unbearable to live with. I was not educated at all regarding post partum or the feelings that would follow after the 15minute procedure, probably for the rest of my life. I had counseling several months after my abortion, only after I made some thoughtless decisions in my life."

These are testimonials from numerous women from the neutral, supportive post-abortion site: afterabortion.com.

I agree that it's a moral and ethical decision. i also agree that other factors, such as economics, enter into the choice. The thing is, I've heard similar quotes from women who have chosen adoption and from those who have chosen to parent as well. When dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, whatever choice is made is going to be difficult and have lasting ramifications. We need to spend more energy helping people prevent unwanted pregnancies and less energy focusing on the abortion itself. Let's get to the source of the issue so that fewer women have to make such a difficult choice.

stonesgstring · July 2006

surfanddestroy wrote:

If somebody gets pregnant and really doesn't want a child it is totaly right to have an abortion, what is the point in bringing more people into this world to be unhappy and unloved.

Yep I agree with that point. It happens far too often though sadly.

thankyougrandma · July 2006

stonesgstring wrote:

Yep I agree with that point. It happens far too often though sadly.

That's why i think the energy that his commited to outlaw abortion should be put on education and the reduction of abortion, maybe more regulation, but outlaw abortion and you will have another problem on your hand... just my opinion...

angelica · July 2006

comebackgirl wrote:

I agree that it's a moral and ethical decision. i also agree that other factors, such as economics, enter into the choice. The thing is, I've heard similar quotes from women who have chosen adoption and from those who have chosen to parent as well. When dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, whatever choice is made is going to be difficult and have lasting ramifications. We need to spend more energy helping people prevent unwanted pregnancies and less energy focusing on the abortion itself. Let's get to the source of the issue so that fewer women have to make such a difficult choice.

I can see the validity of what you are saying. Prevention is by far the best option. I've been in a celibate relationship for 8 years.

Personally, my own purpose with such subjects is to deal with any person in the now, in empowering them to make the best decisions they possibly can, for themselves, given the variables in their own life. That includes facing unwanted pregnancy, or facing birth control issues, or facing any kind of trauma after any kind of traumatising experience. I'm for developing understanding, so we can be conscientious in our actions, and so we do not create worse fall-out for ourselves. We're all human and we all make our mistakes.

comebackwoman · July 2006

angelica wrote:

I can see the validity of what you are saying. Prevention is by far the best option. I've been in a celibate relationship for 8 years.

Personally, my own purpose with such subjects is to deal with any person in the now, in empowering them to make the best decisions they possibly can, for themselves, given the variables in their own life. That includes facing unwanted pregnancy, or facing birth control issues, or facing any kind of trauma after any kind of traumatising experience. I'm for developing understanding, so we can be conscientious in our actions, and so we do not create worse fall-out for ourselves. We're all human and we all make our mistakes.

I agree. It really is about the best decision for each individual, given their unique circumstances, history and access to supports and resources. Since no 2 people will ever have the same exact set of circumstances, no 1 decision is going to be right for everyone. It's all about information, access and choice.

danmac · July 2006

angelica wrote:

I can see the validity of what you are saying. Prevention is by far the best option. I've been in a celibate relationship for 8 years.

Personally, my own purpose with such subjects is to deal with any person in the now, in empowering them to make the best decisions they possibly can, for themselves, given the variables in their own life. That includes facing unwanted pregnancy, or facing birth control issues, or facing any kind of trauma after any kind of traumatising experience. I'm for developing understanding, so we can be conscientious in our actions, and so we do not create worse fall-out for ourselves. We're all human and we all make our mistakes.

Kudos to you (must be frustrating)

Seriously, proposing celibacy as a cure for abortion seems a little far fetched. The human race would struggle to survive longer than another hundred years!

And sex is not just for procreation, its for fun, its for expressing love, a chemical reaction or otherwise.

angelica · July 2006

danmac wrote:

How do you mean, "that is not my own?"

I mean that we are talking about a completely separate human life. Yes this life is dependent on it's mother. Yes it lives in it's mother's body. Yes this life is at the beginning stages of formation. At the same time, it is a unique being in it's own right. It has it's own DNA and it's own human potential that is unfolding. Do you feel that it's okay for you to stop it in it's tracks? Do you think you have the right to end that life? Do you think it's okay for you to stop the growth of a unique human being who is in process? Do you think you have the right to end a life that is not your own specific individual, unique life?

angelica · July 2006

danmac wrote:

Kudos to you (must be frustrating)

Seriously, proposing celibacy as a cure for abortion seems a little far fetched. The human race would struggle to survive longer than another hundred years!

And sex is not just for procreation, its for fun, its for expressing love, a chemical reaction or otherwise.

It looks like you assume far too much. here.

LikeAnOcean · July 2006

surfanddestroy wrote:

If somebody gets pregnant and really doesn't want a child it is totaly right to have an abortion, what is the point in bringing more people into this world to be unhappy and unloved.

The People in the middle east don't want people on their land, do they have the right to abort them?

LikeAnOcean · July 2006

danmac wrote:

A one year old child can live without the support of its mother. A foetus can't. Simple concept, really.

A one year old CAN'T live without the support of a mother. Simple concept really.

You place a one year old kid on the street to fend for itself, it will die within days.

At what stage does abortion become murder?

Comments

Categories